How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

I know that our government will propably do noting substantially. It either finds it unimportant to defend the constitutions or is scared from the USA.

But what should it do?

Here are my proposals:

1) We should stop to exchange any kind of data with the US immediately. This would show that spying on friends does not increase the National security.
2) We should ask the United Nations to debate this issue and to pass a resolution to protect data from internet, mobiles etc. I am aware that the US may block any resolution, but I would like to see the discussion.
3) We should start criminal proceedings against those involved in these programs. This means that we should try to get Snowden as an witness. I know that we would propably not be able to sentence anybody, but the inverstigation would bring things to the light and those responcible would not be able to travel to Europe any longer.
4) We should tighten our laws against the storage of data and we should punish any (American) company that does not follow these laws. Sentence Microsoft, Google and others with some billion charges and see what will happen. If we cannot get the US agencies, we can get the auxs.

In case the US government still insist on their programs and does not appologize and guarantees to respect our laws:

5) Stop any meetings about the economic treaty with the US. how could we have an agreement if one side does not respect our laws?
6) Quit the NATO. NATO was planned to be a defensive alliance to protect the free world. Only time one of the allies was attacked was the US in 9/11. Currently we are involved in a war to defend our American allies. Obviously we have to accept the fact that the Americans behave hostile and are more threatening us and our way of life than some fanatic moslems.

Of course the governemnt will do nothing like this. Most likely it will wait until elections are done and change our laws so that the American acticities are legal.

7) Invite Russia to advance our relations and become better friends.

8) start a health offensive and throw out cheap american food producers.

9) vote a minority party into office, even if it's the communists I don't really care at this point since the big ones are obviously just about hot air.

The Dutch government is so intrusive that I don't even care what the NSA does. I hope that it at least serves a purpose instead of our government's obsession with databases on just about everything. Nowhere are you as much spiead upon as here, and oddly enough nowhere are you more likely to get away with crime despite all these eyes everywhere

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Originally Posted by Husar

7) Invite Russia to advance our relations and become better friends.

8) start a health offensive and throw out cheap american food producers.

9) vote a minority party into office, even if it's the communists I don't really care at this point since the big ones are obviously just about hot air.

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7) :no: I thought about Russia or China, but what would that be good for? None of these shares our values of democracy and freedom. I think Russia and China are closer to Washington from the idiologicaly point of view. :rolleyes:
Of course we can go on trading, like we used to do.

Germany is the most spied on country in Europe, by the US.

Outrage is good. Government outrage would be better.

You have more leverage than any other EU country also. Their most strategic bases are here. Forbidding access to German air space until they stop would get their attention real quick.

It is not over politically but I doubt the German Government will get tough with them.

Your government cooperated

things to do - for European government officials:

A) Stop pretending you are surprised and outraged - everyone spies on everyone else, that's the game, yes even allies, I understand a certain level of public outrage soap-opera will be produced but it's annoying to sit through 2-3 weeks of news reports of people acting like offended virgins.
B) what you should be pissed about is that they succeeded and that it took an internal mole for you to find out
C) Talk to your people responsible for preventing this /slash doing the same thing back, fire some incompetents, beef up efforts and get back in the game.

Governments spying on other governments is typical and normal.

Governments spying on businesses and stealing technologies are normal for defense but not normal when not defense related. Windmills have no defensive applications that I am aware of and passing stolen technologies to corporations to profit from is more outrageous.

Governments monitoring all of the telephone calls of an entire nation is not normal spying. Be it their own nation or another.

I agree with Ronin, the Germans spy on the US - they just haven't been caught yet. As far as backing Russia against the US - bad idea. Putin is a Tyrant, he does everything the US government does and more.

Even suggesting we should favour Russia over the US makes you sound like a child having a tantrum - the idea has no logical argument for it.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Governments spying on other governments is typical and normal.

Governments spying on businesses and stealing technologies are normal for defense but not normal when not defense related. Windmills have no defensive applications that I am aware of and passing stolen technologies to corporations to profit from is more outrageous.

Governments monitoring all of the telephone calls of an entire nation is not normal spying. Be it their own nation or another.

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what defines "normal" spying is:

the Advantage you can gain from doing it
divided by:
The effort/resources you have to invest into doing it.

and my friend, the introduction and massification of digital communication has dropped the value of the divisor in that calculation to near zero.
It can easily be done.....so it will be done.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I agree with Ronin, the Germans spy on the US - they just haven't been caught yet. As far as backing Russia against the US - bad idea. Putin is a Tyrant, he does everything the US government does and more.

Even suggesting we should favour Russia over the US makes you sound like a child having a tantrum - the idea has no logical argument for it.

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Nope! Germany has no history of spying on the US. In fact Germany has alerted the US of others trying to spy on them.

Allies I can say that spied on the US or attempted to were fairly quickly found out. Israel and France are two examples.

The actions taken by the US Government at the time was to deny entry of sensitive areas to those nationals, employees of companies based in those countries or their subsidiaries. That gets enforced. If it is a highly sensitive area only US nationals are permitted there. Even naturalized citizens are at times excluded.

The Germans may conduct electronic surveillance with US knowledge on the US, but that is just like the UK. It is not technically spying.

And just because it is easy is no excuse for doing it and now is an opportunity to stop it.

Disgusting how some here talk about Putin.

Putin is just like Obama, he's just more open and honest about it. And that's exactly why he makes a better ally, because he said right away that every nation does this and it's not really surprising. The advantage of the Russian is his honesty compared to the American who smiles into your face and plots against you behind your back. If the Russian has a problem with you he will tell you or hit you on the nose but then you can talk about it and drink vodka together.

The American will never let you know, then storm your house at night, abduct you to a secret prison and torture you without any solid evidence. Maybe the Russian is only making very slow progress towards freedom but the American is making fast progress away from it...

The only redeeming case being the Zimmerman case of course, where America truly showed how stalking a guy in the night and then shooting him the face if he doesn't like it is the American way to deal with perceived problems.
Did I say redeeming? I mean just compare it to this, so far they've stalked us in the night, maybe the reason our politicians are silent is because they don't want to get shot...

Government on Government is all fine and dandy and you would have to be naive to think they don't spy on each other (I do find it odd how much attention the Germans have garnered from the US however), but Governments stealing Corporate designs and passing them onto their own Corporations sets a MASSIVELY bad precedent ... and if you care about that sort of thing shows how interlinked Government is with the Corporate world...

I was with you until you brought up Zimmerman. That is a different thread. Germany is blessed with a low crime rate. Even their bad areas are better than most US suburbs and the only reason it made news was because the shooter was thought to be white because of a German last name.

The Zimmerman comparison was the crown jewel of my post and has nothing to do with the Zimmerman thread. It only serves to compare the actions that are normal for individual Americans to those that are normal for the American government because the latter is a reflection of the former.

What USA is doing is not nice. Someone ransacking your communications because you are a foreigner. So the threshold to spy on someone is rather low.

Thing is UK-Australia-New Zealand & Canada are all part of the same spy group and use some similar technologies. US holding the keys to the Internet (DNS) means they are in a rather unique position.

However not only those five are involved. China actively monitors not just their citizens metadata but their content. Russia's internal police probably are only hampered by cash flow.

France and Germany have both been outed as running similar programs. The highest horse on this is a Shetland pony.

It's not country vs country as much as country vs their own citizens and others. The spying is aimed at Joe Citizen and is used how? Apparently for data theft, tracking of crimes, commercial gain... But all done so opaquely no one can be sure what the real benefits or costs are. But just imagine the ability to abuse such a system by an individual, a contracted company or the government itself. Afterall weren't journalists spied upon to look for whistle blowers... Is this what the patriot act was supposed to combat?

You people are ignorant children.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You people are ignorant children.

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And Ridicule is the weapon of choice when people here something they don’t like but have no logical means to refute it.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You people are ignorant children.

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I have evidence that says we are not, the facts speak against you.

How we should react?

Roll over and pretend we didn't see anything. Ask them to go gently on us on the second round, knowing that we'll be ignored.


May not be ideal, but at least it's what actually going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You people are ignorant children.

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So could you please enlighten us, master?

How we should react?

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Roll over and pretend we didn't see anything. Ask them to go gently on us on the second round, knowing that we'll be ignored.


May not be ideal, but at least it's what actually going to happen.

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It will, but it shouldn't.
America is still number one superpower, but it is rapidly eroding. This makes it extremely dangerous.
We should not let them pull us down. We have enough alternatives.

First off ICANN should be distributed to each country and not held by a single one.

Being a private or non profit does not mean it is immune to being abused.

Second clean up the EU backyard first.

Third Real Politik ... Either do something significant either diplomatically or arrest another blond wigged spy OR ask for more grease (money) and take one for the team.

European countries (and others) should take the information, learn from it and evaluate a few things. Things like how much do you want to bet the farm on the USA being & remaining successful, at the potential risk of alienating far more forthcoming partners? These others don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts either, get up to a lot of mischief as well, but they do have something on offer besides a lecture on how we should do more to fund the US dumping ground for unwanted military messes and passive/aggressive pet dog otherwise known as NATO.

Additionally there are domestic issues to sort out. Lot's of them, and you know being pointed at the facts and specifics instead of vague hand wavy "everyone does it" can only help to have a proper debate here.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Disgusting how some here talk about Putin.

Putin is just like Obama, he's just more open and honest about it. And that's exactly why he makes a better ally, because he said right away that every nation does this and it's not really surprising. The advantage of the Russian is his honesty compared to the American who smiles into your face and plots against you behind your back. If the Russian has a problem with you he will tell you or hit you on the nose but then you can talk about it and drink vodka together.

The American will never let you know, then storm your house at night, abduct you to a secret prison and torture you without any solid evidence. Maybe the Russian is only making very slow progress towards freedom but the American is making fast progress away from it...

The only redeeming case being the Zimmerman case of course, where America truly showed how stalking a guy in the night and then shooting him the face if he doesn't like it is the American way to deal with perceived problems.
Did I say redeeming? I mean just compare it to this, so far they've stalked us in the night, maybe the reason our politicians are silent is because they don't want to get shot...

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Disgusting how some people defend Putin.

He's a Populist Tyrant.

He rigs elections, has his opponents arrested, charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges, he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.

PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?

I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Disgusting how some people defend Putin.

He's a Populist Tyrant.

He rigs elections, has his opponents arrested, charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges, he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.

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If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Obama ain't no Putin. We're quite a few steps removed from that.

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Sure, but are you suggesting that we must wait until we have a president who is literally Putin before we act?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

No, but I think premature action is the worst thing possible. We don't live in the 1700s, revolution isn't really possible in the way that so many right-wing separatists want. It would be a massacre, and it would be brief. I think we have two choices: Nip this in the bud by reforming our political institutions peacefully and deliberately, or accept that we are not going to be a Republic for much longer. Revolution is just the worst possible solution, and by far the least likely to accomplish anything.

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I don't really see anyone asking for a revolution. I only see people who take the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln to heart:

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Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln

As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy

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The only difference between that statement and one which would be made today is that we no longer fight for the notion that we are to be all equal, we fight for the notion that we are to be not equally starved in our rights to privacy and property.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

You called to 'act.' That can only be interpreted in a few ways, regardless of whether or not they have been pondering the wisdom of honest Abe.

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Strange, I feel that 'act' is one of the most generous and vague terms to throw out there. Acting comes in all forms, revolution, peaceful protesting, civil disobedience, even inaction is an act in of itself.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

So which one of those is helped by reflecting on Abe's wisdom?

Because, personally, I find his stance regarding the secession of the South to be far more telling than any other stance he took.

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I am not advocating a particular method of changing the system. I am simply asking you that perhaps Snowden is simply putting into action what Lincoln claims he himself should do in a similar position. What is inherently wrong with aiding the enemy if you yourself believe that the government has abandoned (or is abandoning) everything which it claims to stand for?

Please elaborate the second part of that post.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

He rigs elections

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Yes, that is a vice but also not proven.
Given the current state of our media (let's just say "Captain Sum Ting Wong" here) these allegations might as well be completely false.
According to our media the muslim brotherhood and the syrian rebels were also fighting the same fight as the french revolutionaries.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

has his opponents arrested

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Yes, but Snowden is wanted and quite a few opponents of the US president are currently in gitmo.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges

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According to our trustworthy news organizations and their thorough, unbiased research.
Apart from that, at least they do get a trial unlike the people in gitmo.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

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Like I said, at least he is relatively honest and direct, these people knew he was out to get them and why.
Unlike the USA, which abducts and kills people all over the world, sometimes accepting to blow up a whole wedding party as well.
When Putin kills his opponents he does at least not cause great "collateral damage" that he explains away as "yeah, but I'm the good guy anyway..."

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.

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Given what I just described, the USA seems more like an ideological enemy than Russia. How you can equate Putin with Russia after saying he rigs elections is also quite strange. If he represents the Russian population as a whole then the elections can't have been rigged.

I can only recommend you take a more objective look instead of ignoring all the recent human rights abuses of the USA just because they were traditionally better and historically on our side.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?

I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.

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Yeah - pretty sure we're in cahoots - quite possible we would assassinate a leak before he leaked - but then the last time that happened it was Blair in charge, and I'm not convinced he isn't actually a psychopath - so maybe we'd just arrest and gag him.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.

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Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

...You mean they aren't already in all but name?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

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How is that true? It sounds like it comes straight out of a Cold War propaganda book. Since the Cold War ended, how many countries were invaded blackmailed and violently overthrown by the USA and how many by Russia? The Russians stand by their ally Assad while the US give the islamist rebels weaponry only to keep Russia and its allies down; like they didn't learn a thing from Afghanistan...

Maybe you could finally post some facts about why the USA are the lesser evil instead of quoting statements from propaganda leaflets.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

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Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.

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Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.

Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.

So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Maybe the answer is to question all spying? That is where the moral high-ground is to be had.

Daniel Ellsberg saying stuff and a Bush crony saying stuff

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a video response on you link suggests how EU countries could respond - I've got nothing to hide.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Pz5wb6LXZLs&hl=en_US&fs=1&

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

I've got nothing to hide.

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But if you wanted to, could you?

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.

Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.

So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.

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I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.

About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?

I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.

As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?

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Originally Posted by Husar

I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.

About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?

I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.

As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?

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So - wait- the Germans ARE doing it too?

Anyway - as regards Russia and Putin vs the US.

The US has the same prejudice against Muslims now that it had against the Japanese during WWII.

Russia has a perpetual prejudice against everyone and a history of autocracy. Russia is not our friend, never has been, never will be. The US has behaved very badly over the last decade, but the underlying ideas are still there and they still see us in a better light than they do Muslims, especially dark Muslims.

If we're being honest - the US will treat us better - at the very least they'll not cut us while they ravage us - Russia, all bets are off.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

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You will need to properly flesh out that first statement there. A handful of activists over the past few years have embarrassed the US, under the guise that the US government has abandoned its principles and the Constitution. And thus the US government will proceed to become Russia 2.0 even faster?

Long term the EU will need to invest in non-US computer companies.

The result of this could be a very real long term damage to the one part of the US economy that has been growing stronger.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

So - wait- the Germans ARE doing it too?

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I don't know, reports seem contradictory. You can't even expect our government to be as clear as Putin.
The West can't even keep up with Putin in terms of government transparency.
We always know that everything in Russia is the fault of Putin, we even know which mysterious killings are the fault of Putin, but we have no idea what our own governments are doing and what not. What kind of sad and pathetic state is that where we seem to be more clear about what's happening everywhere else in the world but have no clue about what our own governments are actually doing?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Anyway - as regards Russia and Putin vs the US.

The US has the same prejudice against Muslims now that it had against the Japanese during WWII.

Russia has a perpetual prejudice against everyone and a history of autocracy. Russia is not our friend, never has been, never will be. The US has behaved very badly over the last decade, but the underlying ideas are still there and they still see us in a better light than they do Muslims, especially dark Muslims.

If we're being honest - the US will treat us better - at the very least they'll not cut us while they ravage us - Russia, all bets are off.

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More Russians = barbarians rhetoric? And how can you know what Russia will be in the future? Have you switched from christianity to shamanism? I expect more from the USA than being a kinder variety of plundering hordes, at least as long as they say that we shouldn't be anti-American because they stand in for freedom and democracy.

And ACIN, that the USA has become what it is is not the fault of some activists and it's not Russia 2.0 either.
However the government and the general populace seem to have no problem to go nuclear and abandon all their "strongly held" principles at the sight of a scary-looking rat and that's a dangerous trend.

I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.

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IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!

pretty absurd IF

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!

pretty absurd IF

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Thing is, the US spends far more on the military then what it needs to. So you could still cut it and play 'International Police'. Though America is more in the position of "International Godfather".

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.

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I'll join that sentiment, assuming that the EU you speak of is not headed by the current gaggle of politicians that, by comparison, make even the national level political parties seem like they have our best interests at heart.

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!

pretty absurd IF

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And where it is written that the world needs a policeman? Rest of the world has pretty much gotten used to the idea that not everything can be "your way". Germans imports almost all of it oil. Do they go on a conquering spree when the prices go up? No, they suck it up and move on.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

I'll join that sentiment, assuming that the EU you speak of is not headed by the current gaggle of politicians that, by comparison, make even the national level political parties seem like they have our best interests at heart.

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The Eu isn't so bad. From my point of view it has three problems:

1) National parties send only third grade politicians or politicians that failed in national parliaments. They get promoted to the EU, where they cannot cause too much trouble.

2) Local politicians: It is always a good strategy bashing the EU if citizens are unhappy with something. One example is the water issue. People at Germany were very upset abut this. However, the program was innitiated by the national governments (incl. ours) and they had several opportunities to stop it. Once the people got upset, our local politicians were upset too putting blame on the EU.

3) EU has no real power, it is still dominated by the national governemnts. There are only some fields were they have competence to pass laws and they use these far too much.

“Though America is more in the position of "International Godfather".” Really ?

“The Eu isn't so bad” Was not that bad. But now, unelected bodies dictate what is good or not, adoption of treaties against the will of population, liberal dictatorship (dictasoftship) (dictablanda not dictadura) imposing economical rules and hardship on the European Populations to save the Riches… I think the European Construction was supposed to unify the populations of the continent, not to oppress them

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Governments spying on other governments is typical and normal.

Governments spying on businesses and stealing technologies are normal for defense but not normal when not defense related. Windmills have no defensive applications that I am aware of and passing stolen technologies to corporations to profit from is more outrageous.

Governments monitoring all of the telephone calls of an entire nation is not normal spying. Be it their own nation or another.

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welcome to the DGSE, mon amis.