How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

[Husar]

Disgusting how some here talk about Putin.

Putin is just like Obama, he's just more open and honest about it. And that's exactly why he makes a better ally, because he said right away that every nation does this and it's not really surprising. The advantage of the Russian is his honesty compared to the American who smiles into your face and plots against you behind your back. If the Russian has a problem with you he will tell you or hit you on the nose but then you can talk about it and drink vodka together.

The American will never let you know, then storm your house at night, abduct you to a secret prison and torture you without any solid evidence. Maybe the Russian is only making very slow progress towards freedom but the American is making fast progress away from it...

The only redeeming case being the Zimmerman case of course, where America truly showed how stalking a guy in the night and then shooting him the face if he doesn't like it is the American way to deal with perceived problems.
Did I say redeeming? I mean just compare it to this, so far they've stalked us in the night, maybe the reason our politicians are silent is because they don't want to get shot...

[Fisherking]

I was with you until you brought up Zimmerman. That is a different thread. Germany is blessed with a low crime rate. Even their bad areas are better than most US suburbs and the only reason it made news was because the shooter was thought to be white because of a German last name.

[Husar]

The Zimmerman comparison was the crown jewel of my post and has nothing to do with the Zimmerman thread. It only serves to compare the actions that are normal for individual Americans to those that are normal for the American government because the latter is a reflection of the former.

[Papewaio]

What USA is doing is not nice. Someone ransacking your communications because you are a foreigner. So the threshold to spy on someone is rather low.

Thing is UK-Australia-New Zealand & Canada are all part of the same spy group and use some similar technologies. US holding the keys to the Internet (DNS) means they are in a rather unique position.

However not only those five are involved. China actively monitors not just their citizens metadata but their content. Russia's internal police probably are only hampered by cash flow.

France and Germany have both been outed as running similar programs. The highest horse on this is a Shetland pony.

It's not country vs country as much as country vs their own citizens and others. The spying is aimed at Joe Citizen and is used how? Apparently for data theft, tracking of crimes, commercial gain... But all done so opaquely no one can be sure what the real benefits or costs are. But just imagine the ability to abuse such a system by an individual, a contracted company or the government itself. Afterall weren't journalists spied upon to look for whistle blowers... Is this what the patriot act was supposed to combat?

[Strike For The South]

You people are ignorant children.

[Fisherking]

You people are ignorant children.

And Ridicule is the weapon of choice when people here something they don’t like but have no logical means to refute it.

[Husar]

You people are ignorant children.

I have evidence that says we are not, the facts speak against you.

[HoreTore]

How we should react?

Roll over and pretend we didn't see anything. Ask them to go gently on us on the second round, knowing that we'll be ignored.


May not be ideal, but at least it's what actually going to happen.

[Franconicus]

You people are ignorant children.

So could you please enlighten us, master?

How we should react?

Roll over and pretend we didn't see anything. Ask them to go gently on us on the second round, knowing that we'll be ignored.


May not be ideal, but at least it's what actually going to happen.

It will, but it shouldn't.
America is still number one superpower, but it is rapidly eroding. This makes it extremely dangerous.
We should not let them pull us down. We have enough alternatives.

[Papewaio]

First off ICANN should be distributed to each country and not held by a single one.

Being a private or non profit does not mean it is immune to being abused.

Second clean up the EU backyard first.

Third Real Politik ... Either do something significant either diplomatically or arrest another blond wigged spy OR ask for more grease (money) and take one for the team.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Disgusting how some here talk about Putin.

Putin is just like Obama, he's just more open and honest about it. And that's exactly why he makes a better ally, because he said right away that every nation does this and it's not really surprising. The advantage of the Russian is his honesty compared to the American who smiles into your face and plots against you behind your back. If the Russian has a problem with you he will tell you or hit you on the nose but then you can talk about it and drink vodka together.

The American will never let you know, then storm your house at night, abduct you to a secret prison and torture you without any solid evidence. Maybe the Russian is only making very slow progress towards freedom but the American is making fast progress away from it...

The only redeeming case being the Zimmerman case of course, where America truly showed how stalking a guy in the night and then shooting him the face if he doesn't like it is the American way to deal with perceived problems.
Did I say redeeming? I mean just compare it to this, so far they've stalked us in the night, maybe the reason our politicians are silent is because they don't want to get shot...

Disgusting how some people defend Putin.

He's a Populist Tyrant.

He rigs elections, has his opponents arrested, charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges, he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.

[Papewaio]

PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?

I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Disgusting how some people defend Putin.

He's a Populist Tyrant.

He rigs elections, has his opponents arrested, charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges, he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.

If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Obama ain't no Putin. We're quite a few steps removed from that.

Sure, but are you suggesting that we must wait until we have a president who is literally Putin before we act?

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, but I think premature action is the worst thing possible. We don't live in the 1700s, revolution isn't really possible in the way that so many right-wing separatists want. It would be a massacre, and it would be brief. I think we have two choices: Nip this in the bud by reforming our political institutions peacefully and deliberately, or accept that we are not going to be a Republic for much longer. Revolution is just the worst possible solution, and by far the least likely to accomplish anything.

I don't really see anyone asking for a revolution. I only see people who take the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln to heart:

As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy

The only difference between that statement and one which would be made today is that we no longer fight for the notion that we are to be all equal, we fight for the notion that we are to be not equally starved in our rights to privacy and property.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You called to 'act.' That can only be interpreted in a few ways, regardless of whether or not they have been pondering the wisdom of honest Abe.

Strange, I feel that 'act' is one of the most generous and vague terms to throw out there. Acting comes in all forms, revolution, peaceful protesting, civil disobedience, even inaction is an act in of itself.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So which one of those is helped by reflecting on Abe's wisdom?

Because, personally, I find his stance regarding the secession of the South to be far more telling than any other stance he took.

I am not advocating a particular method of changing the system. I am simply asking you that perhaps Snowden is simply putting into action what Lincoln claims he himself should do in a similar position. What is inherently wrong with aiding the enemy if you yourself believe that the government has abandoned (or is abandoning) everything which it claims to stand for?

Please elaborate the second part of that post.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?

I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.

Yeah - pretty sure we're in cahoots - quite possible we would assassinate a leak before he leaked - but then the last time that happened it was Blair in charge, and I'm not convinced he isn't actually a psychopath - so maybe we'd just arrest and gag him.

If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

[Greyblades]

...You mean they aren't already in all but name?

[Husar]

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

How is that true? It sounds like it comes straight out of a Cold War propaganda book. Since the Cold War ended, how many countries were invaded blackmailed and violently overthrown by the USA and how many by Russia? The Russians stand by their ally Assad while the US give the islamist rebels weaponry only to keep Russia and its allies down; like they didn't learn a thing from Afghanistan...

Maybe you could finally post some facts about why the USA are the lesser evil instead of quoting statements from propaganda leaflets.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.

[Papewaio]

Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.

Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.

Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.

So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.

[The Lurker Below]

Maybe the answer is to question all spying? That is where the moral high-ground is to be had.

Daniel Ellsberg saying stuff and a Bush crony saying stuff

a video response on you link suggests how EU countries could respond - I've got nothing to hide.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Pz5wb6LXZLs&hl=en_US&fs=1&

[Husar]

Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.

Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.

So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.

I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.

About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?

I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.

As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

You will need to properly flesh out that first statement there. A handful of activists over the past few years have embarrassed the US, under the guise that the US government has abandoned its principles and the Constitution. And thus the US government will proceed to become Russia 2.0 even faster?

[Papewaio]

Long term the EU will need to invest in non-US computer companies.

The result of this could be a very real long term damage to the one part of the US economy that has been growing stronger.

[Husar]

He rigs elections

Yes, that is a vice but also not proven.
Given the current state of our media (let's just say "Captain Sum Ting Wong" here) these allegations might as well be completely false.
According to our media the muslim brotherhood and the syrian rebels were also fighting the same fight as the french revolutionaries.

has his opponents arrested

Yes, but Snowden is wanted and quite a few opponents of the US president are currently in gitmo.

charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges

According to our trustworthy news organizations and their thorough, unbiased research.
Apart from that, at least they do get a trial unlike the people in gitmo.

he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

Like I said, at least he is relatively honest and direct, these people knew he was out to get them and why.
Unlike the USA, which abducts and kills people all over the world, sometimes accepting to blow up a whole wedding party as well.
When Putin kills his opponents he does at least not cause great "collateral damage" that he explains away as "yeah, but I'm the good guy anyway..."

The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.

Given what I just described, the USA seems more like an ideological enemy than Russia. How you can equate Putin with Russia after saying he rigs elections is also quite strange. If he represents the Russian population as a whole then the elections can't have been rigged.

I can only recommend you take a more objective look instead of ignoring all the recent human rights abuses of the USA just because they were traditionally better and historically on our side.