Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[GeneralHankerchief]

Why don't we just raid Debeltos? Move in, kill who we need to, sack the place, and abandon it? Roman honor is no longer sullied, we don't have to worry about borders, and plus we get some extra cash in our treasury.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: A raid on Debeltos is certainly possible. No one has proposing trying to keep it.That would only make sense if Egypt declares war on us, allowing us to seize all the balkans south of the Danube.

The great city of Byzantion is a different matter, though, and I would be reluctant to see us surrender it if we do seize it from the Greeks during Legio Vs expedition.

[flyd]

Do not expect the Greeks at Byzantium to be eliminated by the Seleucids any time soon. The Greeks have been gaining ground, and the Seleucids are stretched too thin to be able to stop them. The Greeks at Byzantium are not at war with Ptolemy.

[Mount Suribachi]

If we give/sell Debeltos, I would rather see it given to Seleucia, in the hope that it might increase friction and lead to war between Seleucia and the Ptolomites. I also like the proposition of Marcellus Aemilius that we raze it to the ground. It would be a fitting end for the treacherous Macedonians.

As for the Greeks Senator Coruncanius, they have but 2 cities left. Their position is weak.

[flyd]

Senator Pansa, the Seleucids and the Ptolemies are already at war. This is a fact you would be aware of if you looked at the discussion on the previous page between me and Consul Aemilius. Another fact you would be aware of is that the Seleucids have been losing a lot of ground; it is their position that is weak in northwestern Asia rather than the Greek one. I have also already mentioned that Debeltos could be given to Seleucus.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,

I bring you an update of my reign.

Finished Interim Report part I
Finished Interim Report part II

This ends the first section of the reign of Lucius Aemilius and Amulius Coruncanius. It will continue as the reign of Lucius Aemilius and Publius Pansa.

Our current situation :

The Legio I Italia Victrix is stationed in Luvavum to the north of the Alps to draw the Thracians away from our provinces.
The Legio II Sabina Quintia is stationed in Gergovia in Gaul.
The Legio III Sicilia Aemilia is stationed in Comata in Gaul.
The Legio IV Gallica is stationed in Philippi.
The Legio V Alaudae is aboard the Eastern Fleet, about to sail trough the Bosporus.
The (revived) Legio VI is stationed at a Danube crossing notheast of Delmatia.
The Field Army I is stationed at a Danube crossing north of Ratiaria.
The Cispine Legion is stationed in a fort north of Jenuensis.
The Sicily Legion is in South Italy marching towards their fort in Sicily.



The Republic of Rome is at war with the Greek cities, the Republic of Carthage, Gaul, the kingdom of Thrace and the Kingdom of Macedon.
The Kingdom of Macedon is allied with the Germans and the Greek cities and is at war with the Republic of Rome and the Greek cities.
The Seleucid empire is at war with the Ptolemaic empire, the kingdom of Parthia and the Greek cities. They have the kingdom of Armenia as a protectorate.
The Republic of Cathage is at war with the Republic of Rome and Iberia.
The kingdom of Parthia is allied with the Sarmatians and the Greek cities and is at war with the Seleucid empire and the kingdom of Armenia.
The Germans are allied with the kingdom of Macedon and is at war with Iberia and the kingdom of Thrace.
The kingdom of Armenia is a vassal of the Seleucid empire and is at war with the Sarmatians and the kingdom of Parthia.
The kingdom of Thrace is allied with the Sarmatians, Gaul and the Ptolemaic empire and is at war with the Germans and the Republic of Rome.
The Greek cities are allied with the kingdom of Macedon, the kingdom of Parthia, Gaul and the kingdom of Bactria and are at war with the Republic of Rome and the Seleucid empire.
The Sarmatians are allied with the kingdom of Parthia and the kigndom of Thrace and at war with the kingdom of Armenia.
The Iberians are allied with the Ptolemaic empire and at war with the Germans, Gaul and the Republic of Carthage.
The kingdom of Bactria is allied with the Greek cities.

Our strategy is one of consolidation. We will strive not to get involved in any more wars. Yet we want to continue the expedition to Debeltos to destroy the kingdom of Macedon. Once the city is conquered and thoroughly pillaged we will abandon it and offer it to the Seleucid empire, and if they do not want it, the Ptolemaic empire as a gift, as it is strategically indefensible. The Greek cities will be ignored as we do not want to get involved in the war between the Ptolemaic empire and the Seleucid empire and we do not have a blood feud with them, as we do with the Macedonians for the destruction of the Consular Army I and the Legio VI, and the death of co-consul Amulius Coruncanius and his son-in-law tribune Hernennius Genucius. Roman honour will be satisfied !
On all other fronts no new conquests will be undertaken, unless of course we are attacked.
We will strive to raise several new legions and bring the current ones up to strength.
We have already begun to improve the road network in Greece and Italy. Our goal is to extend the Via Appia and create paved roads for better supply to our distant borders.
Attempts to improve the living conditions in our major cities are well underway. The first Aquaduct is now under construction in Roma. These projects, and the cultural integration of our new provinces, will continue.
In many provinces we have begun the cultivation of farmland. This is a very time consuming process, requiring 4.5 years (18 turns), but the returns will be bountiful.
If we look at the diplomatic relations in detail, it is clear that the only useful allies we can gain are the Germans and the Sarmatians. I intend to send envoys to both of them.

EDIT : finishing touches wil be done tomorrow
EDIT 2 : Corrected mistake

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The Senate is now open for the proposing of motions. Recall, they should be presented thus:

Motion 10.x: This House does x, y and z.

Each motion requires two seconders who should explicitly state "I second motion 10.x"

Motions that override earlier motions should explicitly note that feature.

The Senate will be open for debate for a period of 3 days, with the deadline for submitting or seconding motions is Saturday 6pm UK time. There will then be a 24 hour period of voting.

[flyd]

Since the senate needs to approve of any territorial transfer, I propose this motion:

Motion 10.1: This house authorizes the First Consul to sell or give away Debeltos upon its capture to any neutral nation.

On the issue of Byzantium, I believe we should capture it. I don't believe that this will drag us into an immedate war with Ptolemy, assuming we don't get into one anyway. I propose the following:

Motion 10.2: This house instructs the First Consul to conquer Byzantium.

According to the Consul's latest report, Ptolemy has aligned himself against us by allying with Thrace, our enemy, and Iberia, a potential enemy and rival. Further, he threatens to upset the balance of power in the east, as first argued here. It is for those two reasons that I believe that we should support his rival, the Seleucid Empire. To that end I propose these motions:

Motion 10.3: This house instructs and authorizes the First Consul to seek an alliance with the Seleucid Empire.

Motion 10.4: If Byzantium is captured, this house instructs the First Consul to finish off the Greeks by taking also Nicomedia, and authorizes him to give Nicomedia back to the Seleucid Empire (from whom it was taken).

[TinCow]

Roman honor demands that Argeos of Pharsalus be sent to the underworld, but I see no need, either for honor or strategy, to take or keep any of the remaining Macedonian and Greek cities. As we have already seen with the Gauls, the small territories controlled by these nations will require them to make desperate assaults on their neighbors in an attempt to survive. We are not one of these neighbors. Greece is already directing their attacks east towards the Selucids. Even if they succeed and again become powerful, we have no interest in Asia Minor and their war with Selucia will certainly continue on for decades even if they meet with nothing but victory. The Macedonians will most likely be destroyed by Ptolemy. If they are not, then their borders will expand to meet ours and we can then assault their cities without fear of causing a border dispute with Ptolemy.

In addition, our Legions are depleted and we have many new provinces which must be properly absorbed into the Republic. Senators, I believe that, contrary to the statements of others and the formal states of war in existence, that we are largely at peace for the first time in my memory. Of our five wars, three, Gaul, Macedon and Greece, are against people with only one or two provinces, all of which no longer share borders with us and all of which are likely to be completely destroyed by larger nations very soon. Of the remaining two, Carthage has had no significant conflict to speak of in well over a decade and a great sea divides us from them. This leaves only Thrace as an active threat to our borders, and their warmaking ability has been greatly debilitated by Consul Aemilius himself.

Senators, we may not find ourselves in such a situation again for a very long time. Despite the diplomatic advances of the Iberians, we are bound to find ourselves in conflict with them shortly. I suspect too that our control of the Macedonian homelands will draw us into the civil war being fought over Alexander's empire. Both of these conflicts will require massive levies and extensive campaigning for many years. I do not anticipate living to see another peace once those wars begin. Let us take this opportunity, won for us by Roman arms, to rest the Republic and prepare for the future.

Accordingly, I propose the following:

Motion 10.5: No attack will be made on a Macedonian city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.

Motion 10.6: No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.

Motion 10.7: Assassins will be sent out to kill Argeos of Pharsalus and will continue to make attempts on his life until he is dead.

Motion 10.8: No provinces will be conquered except those specified by the previous legislation authorizing expansion to the Danube. This Motion will be void if Rome is attacked by any currently neutral nation.

Motion 10.9: The Consul must attempt return all Legions to full strength by the end of his term and should prioritize the construction of a paved road network in as many provinces as possible.

(Constitutional Amendment) Motion 10.10: If Rome does not share a land border with a hostile nation and no land battle has been fought against that nation in 10 years, the Consul may use RomeSage to lower the difficulty level to Easy only for an instant to allow a ceasefire to be negotiated with this enemy. No other actions of any kind may be taken while the difficulty is lowered and it must be returned to Very Hard immediately after the negotiations are complete.

(Constitutional Amendment revised) Motion 10.11:
(1) Candidates standing for First Consul can specify whether they wish to serve full terms (5 years) or half terms (2.5 years).
(2) No candidate may serve more than 5 years in any given 15 year period.
(3) First Consuls may delegate powers to pro-Consuls provided that they indicate that is their intention during their candidature (the pro-Consul need not be named).

Motion 10.12: If Motion 10.10 passes, the Consul will make peace with Carthage on terms that he deems to be honorable to both sides.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I second the motions 10.1, 10.2 and 10.4 proposed by Tiberius Coruncanius regarding the expedition of Legio V.

My men are eager to end two of our most costly wars - with Macedon and with Greece. And they will end it the only way such wars can end - in the utter destruction of our enemies. We do not propose to give our foes time to recover and regroup.

Moreover, Byzantion is a great city. Senators are no doubt aware of the differences in the settlements that surround us - most cannot even built walls and will never become great cities. But a few are capable of becoming great metropolises, that will bring unparalled wealth and population to our Republic. Byzantion is one of those rare prizes.

Byzantion is also situated at a key strategic point, giving us easy access to the Asia Minor and the steppes. It would be a useful staging post for many possible expeditions that the Senate may wish to endorse in the future.

Senators, we must think where does the future of the Republic lie? We have secured Italy, Greece and Macedon. Where will be our greatest challenge in the future?

Fighting barbarians in Iberia? I think not - I suspect Legate Verginius could cut through them as easily as he did the Gauls.

In the dusty tracks of Africa? No, the Carthaginians lick their wounds and dare not challenge us; they are outclassed.

No, Senators, it is in the East that the true challenge lies. The East, where the successors of Alexander command vast Empires that rival even our expanded Repubic.

Senators, we must prepare for that challenge. Taking Byzantion from Greece is a first step. We have an opportunity to do so almost costlessly now, before Egypt or Seleucia steal the prize from under our noses.

Finally, Senators, think on this. To turn Legio V back now, while they are at sea entering the Bosphorus, and to rely on assassins and our rivals to do their work, is to insult our men.They will think we lack confidence in them. Or more to the point, that we lack confidence in ourselves. The men will not understand. And nor will I.

For all these reasons, I also urge you not to support motions 10.5, 10.6, 10.7 and 10.8.

I may speak to other motions after further reflection.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I do believe you have your priorities in the wrong place, Senator Aureolus. You say that we "could cut through the Iberians as easily as we did the Gauls"; is that not the idea, Senator?

Conscript Fathers, you know my stance on attacking the Seleucids or Ptolemy. Imagine all the losses we went through in attacking Greece and Macedon -Pleminius and Coruncanius spring to mind- and multiply that number by five. It would stretch our resources to the point of breaking, especially when there is a fat target much closer to Roma that clearly is afraid of us.

Motion 10.13: Debeltos is to be raided - sacked, then abandoned.

Motion 10.14: This motion authorizes the Consul to start actively conquering Iberian lands. This motion authorises a declaration of war on Iberia.

I also second Motions 10.10, 10.11, and 10.12.

[econ21]

SENATE SPEAKER: Senator Marcellus Aemilius, the scribes have ammended your motion 10.14 to make explicit that it authorises a declaration of war, as is required by convention. If authorising a declaration of war is not your intent, you are free to edit the motion back to its original state but then its execution would have to wait for the Iberians to declare war on us.

[Braden]

Senator Aureolus,

I was not going to support a venture to Byzantium but your words have swayed me, not only because of what that city could become in revenue to the Republic but also as a foothold to stifle the Selucids and Egypt.

I have to agree, we must strike fast and take it from the Greeks before we are beaten there. I have no illusion that this will be an easy task or that we will keep it uncontested for a great length of time but we can hope.

Hereby I support motions:

10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.7, 10.9, 10.10, 10.11 & 10.12

Thus far. For obvious reasons, unlike yourself, I have no compulsion on using Assassins to put Argeos of Pharsalus to death.

I also believe there is an error in the Consuls report where he states “The Kingdom of Macedon is allied with the Germans and the Greek cities and is at war with the Republic of Rome and the Greek cities.”

–Macedon cannot both be at war with AND allied to the Greek City states?

Unfortunately, at this time due to my undertaking in our recent military tribunal I have not had time to review our tactical situation. I may be able to propose fresh motions later but at this time those already proposed are sufficient.

[Mount Suribachi]

Senator Verginius, might I suggest that you re-word motion 10.8 for it does not take into account Rome being attacked by any other nation. The fortunes of war are variable and fleeting, who knows who will be on our borders and at war with us in 2 years time.

May I also suggest you reword Motion 10.9 to "The Consul must attempt to return all Legions to full strength by the end of his term".

I would not want to be impeached in 2.5 years time if Ptolomy and Iberia declare war on us and our Legions are thus depleted.

Finally, I second Motions 10.1, 10.3, 10.6, 10.10, 10.11, 10.12, 10.13


Motion 10.14 is sheer madness. I hope for a quiet and battle free couple of years, and so should you senators. We need time to rest and re-group.

[Dooz]

{Galerius Vatinius}

Quiet and battle-free years are for women and cripples Senator Pansa. I second Motion 10.14 and volunteer to lead a legion into the barbarian's lands.

[TinCow]

Senator Publius Pansa, your words have wisdom I have amended the terms of both motions.

Senator Numerius Aureolus states that wars can only end in one way, with the utter destruction of our enemies. Yet I have not heard either him nor Senator Tiberius Coruncanius call for an attack on the last remaining Gallic settlement. They state that we must finish these wars, but they do not wish to finish all wars, only those where they will lead men in battle and earn personal glory and great wealth. Aureolus and Coruncanius, you will have your wars in due time. The conflict in the east will draw us in inevitably whether we like it or not. Are you so eager for blood that you cannot wait for a few short years to prepare yourselves?

They say that Byzantium is properous and would bring us much wealth. Yet it will also likely bring about war with both Selucia and Ptolemy at the same time. The entire eastern sea will be closed to our merchants and the Republic will suffer from this greatly. There are certainly strategic and financial benefits to Byzantium, but not now and not for us. Perhaps in two and half years the situation will have changed, but for now there is one thing that is absolutely clear:

Taking Byzantium, Debeltos and Nicomedia will mean war with Ptolemy or Seleucia and likely both! No man can say we are ready for such a war and retain respect in this house. Yet these two aggitate for actions which will surely provoke it and they receive support.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I do not see how Legio V's expedition will provoke war with Seleucia, so long as we do not try to hold Nicomedia. There would be no land border with Seleucia.

War with Egypt is likely, but I believe that is due to our existing land border with her, not because of the expedition. Taking and holding Byzantion will not make war any more likely and will strengthen our position should war break out.

Moreover, we are ready for a war with Egypt. We have three field armies able to strike her European possessions and a strong fleet that can guard our coasts after she is expelled from Europe. Indeed, I believe that if war happens quickly with Egypt, it will make the inevitable contest with Iberia go better. We will be able to secure the East, anchoring our Danube frontier at Byzantion, and only have to guard it against a few Thracian raiders.

The last Gallic province is a different matter, because it cannot be reached without transgressing on the land of our neighbour. Furthermore, the news that Iberia is now at war with Gaul makes any discussion of the fate of that settlement in this house irrelevant.

[TinCow]

Yet Macedonia is at war with Ptolemy and Greece is at war with Seleucia and you clearly do not think discussion of their holdings is irrelevant. You make inconsistent choices Aureolus. You do not wish to anger the Iberians, yet you have no qualms about potentially angering the two eastern powers. What have those nations done to so enrage you?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Iberia will finish up the idiotic Gauls, then fix their attention on us. Surely the 506 denarii was only to buy time. I do not want to be caught as far away as Alexandria when we will be fighting in the Alps.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius, I do not wish to transgress the lands of our neighbours - that makes it possible for us to finish off Macedon and Greece, but not Gaul. There is no inconsistency there.

As for letting Seleucia and Egypt defeat our enemies, as of late, they have made little progress there. I believe Greece is taking the offensive against Seleucia in Asia Minor and its city of Byzantion is protected by sea from her enemy. The Macedonian general was able to retreat to Debeltos unmolested through supposedly hostile Egyptian lands. By contrast, I believe a powerful Iberia will make short work of the last pitiful Gallish outpost.

But the key issue to my mind is Byzantion. That is a prized fruit ready for the taking - we should not leave it to fall to Seleucia or Egypt. If the last Gaulish settlement were a great city like Byzantion, rather than some wretched village you have already enslaved and plundered, Senator Verginius, I might think differently.

Moreover, Byzantion has a key strategic location not unlike that of Massilia in the west in days gone past. It is a natural anchor to our Republic. By contrast, the last Gallic settlement could be no more than a stepping stone in a wider contest with Iberia for Gaul.

[Dooz]

{Galerius Vatinius}

Noone is going to Alexandria Marcellus. The aims of taking Byzantion and not moving further into potential enemy territory have been made clear. There is all but one legion tasked with taking it, we won't be caught off guard as long as enough troops stay where they need to. Senator Aureolus makes excellent points as to our border situation and possible conflicts of interest with the Ptolemies and Seleucids, namely that we risk nothing more than we already have by taking Byzantion, and instead have something great to gain with its capture.

[Braden]

I find myself constantly changing my views on this subject of Byzantion. Whilst I agree that such a region will bring the Republic much profit I also believe taking it and holding it will present us in direct opposition to the two powers of the East.

The prospect of War with Seleucia AND Ptolemy feels me with dread at this time, we could not hope to stand against these powers when surrounded.

The issue of Iberia and Gaul is much firmer in my mind. Iberia WILL finish Gaul AND they will also turn against us once they have secured that last Gallic settlement.

The Co-Consuls must ensure we are prepared for this.

IF, it is decided to take Byzantion then the Co-Consuls must be prepared for a huge war! I believe the main issue is that such a war is far from certain…..we could take Byzantion and no provoke either into a response, or we could just provoke one OR both.

If we can be sure we have secured our Eastern boarders on the former Macedonian and Greek City regions then I would be inclined to err on the side of us taking Byzantion and seeing what happens.

The main drawback is that we not only stand to loose which ever Legion ventures forth but have the prospect of our Eastern legions being decimated in a long term struggle.

IF, we are confident that our Legions in the East……..as they are NOW……can resist such a situation, IF, the Senate is happy for us to endanger a whole Legion on such an expedition…..remember we did take such a risk when landing in Illyria as I recall……….THEN, I will support such a venture.

If the Co-Consuls and the Tribunes are not so confident then I am inclined to say “nay” to such a proposal in the Vote.

[TinCow]

Senator Aureolus if you are so sure that Greece will continue to survive and that their dominion over Byzantium will hold, then surely we can take the city from them in two years time when we are properly prepared for a full war. The same stands true of Debeltos. Clearly you believe that Ptolemy and Selucia will not destroy our enemies, so how does a short delay to prepare for a potentially massive war injure us?

Senator Vatinius, we most certainly do risk more. Taking Byzantium will give us a border with Selucia, something we would not otherwise have. Seleucia is in a life-or-death struggle with Ptolemy. Do you really think that they will be glad that we have blocked the main access route to their enemy's holdings in the West?

I am not advocating pacifism by any means. I simply think that we should take advantage of this unprecedented decrease in hostilities to prepare the Republic for the trying times ahead.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius, Legio V is already embarked and about to sail through the Bosphorous. It can destroy the Macedonians at Debeltos, dispose of the settlement and then conquer Byzantion. I do not see what we have to gain from ordering the ships back to port and telling them to wait for the next First Consul (you, perhaps, Senator Verginius?).

We have the manpower to do the job. Legio V can handle itself. Furthermore, our forces are concentrated in what was Macedonia - they are more than sufficient to win a war with Egypt in Europe if she starts one.

Letting the expedition complete its mission would not prevent us preparing ourselves for renewed struggles. Indeed, getting it over with may well free up some of our armies there for duties elsewhere. Furthermore, the income from Byzantion would not go amiss.

[Mount Suribachi]

Augustus Verginius speaks with wisdom. Taking Byzantion gives Ptolomy and Seleucia an isolated Roman city between them. One, or both, of them will be unable to resist attacking it.

And what if Carthage decides to renew hostilities now that Numidia are no more? What if Iberia decides to turn her armies against us. We MUST consolidate, re-group and re-equip. We cannot afford any actions that would cause more wars, as that would undo all the blood and treasure that has been spent to finish the 2 wars that are now drawing to a conclusion.

If we are to take Byzantion, truth be known, I would rather launch a surprise attack on the Ptolomite holdings in Europe and do away with them in one fell swoop. Rather that than wait for them to declare war on us and catch us on the hop.

[Glaucus]

Numerius Aureolus, you have swayed my mind. I agree with you that taking Byzantion is key at this moment. Therefore I second Motions 10.2 and 10.4

I also second Motion 10.5

[flyd]

Of all the nations currently bordering us, Ptolemy is the one we have the least to worry about. Let's not forget that he's in Egypt. They don't have much in Thrace, I reckon we could kick them out in one season if a war started. As far as the threat to us is concerned, Ptolemy cannot be compared to Iberia or the Seleucid Empire. He can, at best, be compared with Carthage, but is even further away, and we haven't seen his fleet perform significant operations in the Aegean.

A war with Ptolemy would not involve a large military campaign. Our war with Carthage didn't involve an invasion of Africa, so why do some apparently assume that we'd suddenly have to invade Egypt if a war with Ptolemy started? In fact, how about we stop being cowards, stop being scared of that bastard in Alexandria, and do what's best for the Republic? I propose:

Motion 10.15: In order to secure the Republic's eastern border, this house instructs the First Consul to completely expel the forces of Ptolemy from Thrace, and to capture Byzantium. This motion authorizes a declaration of war on the Ptolemaic Empire.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,
It grieves me to see this irrational lust for war in the senate. What has come over you that has afflicted you all with bloodlust ? I sometimes feel like I am surrounded by the beserking Illyrians again, instead of optimates.
Nevertheless, I will say this once more.

The state is not ready for another war !

A massive conflict with Iberia and/or the Ptolemaic empire would be a disaster. Even if our armies in the East will be victorious, which I think they will, they can barely be resupplied from Rome. Any serious defeat could not be replaced in less than a year. The same goes for the West. The Iberians can bring forth massive amounts of troops, which will wither away our armies in Gaul due to sheer attrition no matter how brilliant they fight. It is not for nothing I send those legions all the troops I could spare already !
We do not have the troops to garrision any cities we might conquer. We would be forced to garrison them with very expensive mercenaries, which would be a terrible drain on our finances, and which will stunt our development. The first year and a half it was a struggle to build anything, as our powerful armies had conquered so much territory it was impossible to guard all of it without the heavy use of mercenaries. This made it virtually impossible to construct any large projects. Then the need for new legions stalled the recruitement of auxilia forces to replace the mercenary garrisons. There is virtually no roman or italian soldier in all of Greece, as they are all needed at the border, and we are still short of men ! I find this deplorable. All these cities should be garrisoned by local or italian auxilia troops. The very expensive mercenaries are of better use at our borders.
Furthermore, two legions, the I and the IV are pretty beat up and need reinforcements quickly. Soon we will have three Field Armies and they are now only at legion strength or less.
We also need another legion stationed in Southern Italy, one in Southern Greece, one near Aquileia and one in Macedonia. It takes quite a lot of money and time to recruit and train even a single legion. They don't grow on trees, you know !

When our troops are brought up to strength and when the road network is finished, we might be able to fight a protracted war with one of these powers without undue suffering to our continuing development. Fighting on two fronts will strain us even then. You all seem to forget that the Ptolemaic empire and the Iberians are allies now, if we get involved with a war with one of them we will be at war with both ! We must play for time and rebuild !

This clamoring for war is madness, senators ! Come to your senses !

[Lucjan]

I second motions..
10.5, 10.6, 10.7, 10.8, 10.9, 10.10, 10.11, and 10.12

I will not sit through these nonsense, irresponsible mentions of going to war unprovoked with Iberia, who has just payed us a tiny sum for passage of one of their wargroups through our lands, nor will I support any motion to capture isolated cities far from the Roman heartlands, Byzantion or not, it is an irresponsible, ill thought idea that could only end in further disaster for Rome. If our enemies thought in such ways we could destroy them all in a matter of days, this idea of taking Byzantion is akin to the Gauls suddenly deciding that taking Jenuensis and bypassing Masillia was somehow in their best interests. This was clearly proven incorrect. Just because Byzantion is lucrative, doesn't make invading it intelligent. And as for Debeltos..it's too much of a risk, I have no doubt in Roman ability to actually take Debeltos, but after the recent turn of events between Iberia, Thrace and the Ptolemies, I have no faith in Ptolemaic ability to restrain themselves from attacking an isolated legion. And I will not support outright war with the Ptolemies, doing so would draw Iberia to attack our western frontier before there is any news of Carthaginian entanglement or success with them, and this could mean too large of an Iberian warhorde at our Alpine doorstep. Not only this, but a distracted Ptolemy could give the Seleucids a strong shot at Egypt...and an empire in the east that holds both Egypt AND Babylonia, is not something I think Rome could contend with at this time. The amount of money they would net from these two breadbaskets of the ancient world combined would be far more than we could bear.

As things stand I feel that we have seriously spread the armies of the Republic beyond their limits, and propose a new system to reform the deployment of legions and defensive fortifications to Rome's borders and her enemies territories.

I propose Motion 10.16 - The Republic must re-think it's manner of deployment for Rome's legions and other defensive forces and come up with a suitable plan to better ensure the security of our growing nation's borders.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senators,

I have send you some engravings to give you a more graphic view of our situation.

The Western Border


The Northern Border


The Eastern Border


The world as we know it


The relative military strength


The number of territories


While these figures might look promising, remember that most of the extra troops we seem to have are actually garrison troops and thus unusable for war. You see that most of these nations can put strong forces on the battlefield. This goes even for the smaller nations, as they have fewer territories to garrison.
The Republic of Carthage, the Seleucid empire and the Ptolemaic empire probably have equal or more troops in the field than we do. The Iberians probably slightly less.

Savegame : http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/258-aut-end.zip