m3tw

[zor]

not sure what forum to put this in, but do you think they'll ever make a m3tw?

If so, do you think they'll include naval battles like in Empires?

If that's probable, I think I'll just wait for m3tw as I don't care for the Empires time period (though I am really tempted by the naval battles).

[Csargo]

It'll probably be quite a while before a M3TW, if ever.

[pevergreen]

Assuming they want to make a second remake, which I doubt, it would come after many many games.

Rome 2, Shogun 2, World: Total War, Universe: Total War etc.

This is a good enough place as any to have this topic, I'm going to leave it here.

[anders]

rome 2 would probably come before m3tw. theres also the possibilty of more "modern-era" games, and wasnt there a quite recently a query asking what people would think of a fantasy:TW game?

[Martok]

Indeed. We won't be seeing a Medieval 3 anytime soon, if ever. I'm still hoping for either ancient China or ancient Greece as the setting for the next TW game.

rome 2 would probably come before m3tw. theres also the possibilty of more "modern-era" games, and wasnt there a quite recently a query asking what people would think of a fantasy:TW game?

Yes, some TW players (including myself) received emails from Sega asking us to participate in a poll. Among the poll's questions was one asking what era would we like to see for the next Total War title, and a fantasy game was one of the choices. (I don't remember now if I voted for that choice or for something else, though.)

[pevergreen]

Ah, the downsides of being famous

[Mailman653]

A fantasy TW game? Sounds kind of odd but interesting. So what does that mean? I can have archers and archers on flying dragons and maybe further down the tech tree, mount cannons on my flying dragons?

[Martok]

Ah, the downsides of being famous

Right. Because nothing says "celebrity" like being randomly chosen for a survey.

A fantasy TW game? Sounds kind of odd but interesting. So what does that mean? I can have archers and archers on flying dragons and maybe further down the tech tree, mount cannons on my flying dragons?

Heh. Could be, for all I know.


Hmmm. Well, if I were to speculate just for fun:

I think it's safe to say there would still be the standard infantry, cavalry, and missile troops, and would be in your normal unit sizes. More powerful units like wizards and dragons would have only a few of them per company, much like elephants in RTW and Medieval 2. I'm guessing artillery would work more or less the same as it does now, although I'm sure there would be at least a few artillery pieces that would be able to fire some sort of "magic" projectiles instead.

I'm not sure how naval combat would work, though, or even how important it would be. Just about every fantasy strategy game ever made focuses almost entirely on land battles, not to mention which most fantasy races aren't exactly know for their strong maritime traditions anyway. (Could you imagine dwarves, orcs, or halflings having seaports and building navies?? ) Of course, CA could make all that a moot point by simply inventing their own fantasy races/nations.

I think one of the biggest questions regarding a Fantasy Total War, though, is whether it would include magic....and if so, how it would be implemented. On the one hand, it's hard to imagine a fantasy game without magic; but on the other, it would probably be a major challenge for CA to make sure that no one faction's magic abilities would make them too hard or too easy. It'd be a tricky balancing act, to be sure.

[PBI]

I don't really see much scope for a M3TW, I feel they've probably taken that period as far as they can. Maybe there would be scope for a game set in a similar period of history, i.e. the dark ages or the rennaisance but I don't think they could really add enough new to be worth a third installment.

What they could do, however, is release a version of M2TW done in the new engine, as an expansion to one of the later games, in order to be able to have naval combat etc. I don't know whether they would want to do this in preference to an expansion covering a fresh period though, so I think it's more likely we'll see this as a mod.

Personally, I'm hoping for Mongolia: Total War as the next title, although failing that I would be very happy with any Far East setting. Basically, I want something based outside of Europe, as after three games using essentially the same campaign map it's starting to feel tired. In fact, it's for this reason that I feel that sooner or later they will have to make a fantasy title: Eventually they will run out of interesting bits of real history and geography to fight over, whereas in a fantasy title they can simply make it up. I would certainly prefer Fantasy: Total War to, say, Antarctica: Total War or M32TW.

[Mailman653]

I would certainly prefer Fantasy: Total War to, say, Antarctica: Total War or M32TW.

Antarctica:TW

Lets see, we can have a polar Bear faction thats on the verge of extinction. A penguin faction that is very strong but weak against the sealion faction, there has to be a whale faction too, they have the biggest units but move the slowest.

[PBI]

Polar bears are North pole. I can just hear the screams of "historical inaccuracy" now.

Maybe an expansion pack? Antarctica: Total War, Polar Bear Invasion.

[anders]

a fantasy game would have lots of developer advantages; no research, just a bit of imagination and public domain fantasy concepts, no problems balanacing historically very unequal factions against each other, a setting ( generic medieval/tolkien-inspired fantasy) that a lot of ( casual)gamers are familiar with and interested in without being wargame or history buffs, the possibility of very varied units etc.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Polar bears are North pole. I can just hear the screams of "historical inaccuracy" now.

[The_Reckoning]

Personally, I'd love to see something using the other half of the world. So similar to Medieval, but with the orient. Focus being on China, like R:TW's focus on Rome, but which has Japan, India, Mogolia, Korea, and everyone else, stretching as far as Persia.

Maybe call it Dynasty: Total War, or China: Total War. So it's like Rome in that China is the focus, and is spreading its power [I forget the historical period which would work for this, but I'm sure I remember reading about a point in history when China expanded massively]. The whole point being, though, to have all those "What if...?" questions about alternate timelines played out.

I googled for it and there's a mod here which has similar ideas. Is there anything which has taken off yet?



I'd also love a fantasy Total War. If anyone has played HOMM or AoW they'll know that it'd work.

I'd particularly like to see a Warhammer: Total War, because of the amount of character the factions have, and how the unit rosters are already quite expansive. Magic would be cast with a similar system. I can't see the game happening soon, though, because of how Games Workshop doesn't want a game that'd play at all similarly to the table top version, which is their main source of income.

[G^2]

I agree that M3TW is unforturnetly not going to happen. I think Fantasy Total War is a bad idea. Fantasy games are a dime a dozen, and the thing I like the most about Total War is the history and empire building involved. I love that I can play my nationalities faction and rewrite history along with using all the historical units and learning all the historical provices. Fantasy Total War, I think would go against the core of the Total War series, not to mention losing some of the older players who are history buffs. Besides, many moders are out there making awsome fanstsy mods, like the one for Rome which takes place in Middle Earth.

Personally, like many others, I too would like to see something that takes place in the far east. India, Tibet, Southeast Asia, China, Korea, Mongolia, Japan, and Siberia. Perhaps they could make Alaska and California similiar to the "New World" in M2TW. It would also be cool to include Indonesia with a canabil faction. I was suprised when CA made M2TW, I thougth for sure they were going to go to the far east. I do have to say that Polar Bear Total War does sound interesting though . . .

[zor]

I agree that M3TW is unforturnetly not going to happen. I think Fantasy Total War is a bad idea. Fantasy games are a dime a dozen, and the thing I like the most about Total War is the history and empire building involved. I love that I can play my nationalities faction and rewrite history along with using all the historical units and learning all the historical provices. Fantasy Total War, I think would go against the core of the Total War series, not to mention losing some of the older players who are history buffs. Besides, many moders are out there making awsome fanstsy mods, like the one for Rome which takes place in Middle Earth.

Personally, like many others, I too would like to see something that takes place in the far east. India, Tibet, Southeast Asia, China, Korea, Mongolia, Japan, and Siberia. Perhaps they could make Alaska and California similiar to the "New World" in M2TW. It would also be cool to include Indonesia with a canabil faction. I was suprised when CA made M2TW, I thougth for sure they were going to go to the far east. I do have to say that Polar Bear Total War does sound interesting though . . .

Maybe they could do a fantasy-historical blend ...

If it were historical, I wish they would include the whole world in the campaign map. They could still keep it focused on Europe, but you could try exploring west or east or south whenever you wanted to ... and you could play as an Asian faction in the far east if you wanted to ... kind of like Europa Universalis except with Total War game mechanics.

[fenir]

M3:TW?


I think they will revisit it, as it's a very sort after period, and as the game develops, they will re-do that period.

Why not, it's a money maker. Next time we will have more provinces, better ships, and probably to india and mosyt of north africa.
The entire interaction between east and west and north and south.
Alas, this also won't happen for two more games atleast.

So on the back burner.


I personally believe the next most likely eras/areas to visit........


1. Japan: medieval. No so likely at the moment, but still an outisde chance.

2. China:total War? T'ang:Total War. Maybe. I really beleive if china or japan are done, they will be done in their entirity. That is, an Eastern:Total War. Or Oriental:Total War. Maybe Dragon:Total War.
Mabye Ch'ang period.

Mostlys.......

3. Europe, expansion into 1815 to 1914. Most very likely IMHO. Because it fits with everything they are doing in ETW. Everything, needed for this period is going to be developed in ETW.
So my money is here.
Most of the european expansion and development actually happened in this period.

4. Backwards, and the 2nd most likely imho. 1600 to 1700 period. the actually reaching out period.

5. The filler, 1400 to 1600. Actually the period i would perfer. The Develpment and stabilising period for most of the modern European nations.
The wars in the Americas, the true romantic period. Of arts and experimental development.

As for a fantasy Total war. The last few didn't do so well. Most people want to relive the period of history. Something known and understood. perhaps change what happened,develp what we want to happen. fantasy doesn't allow that. And fantasy doesn't capture the human imagination as well.


So my money will be 1800 something to 1914.


Sincerely

fenir

[The_Reckoning]

2. China:total War? T'ang:Total War. Maybe. I really beleive if china or japan are done, they will be done in their entirity. That is, an Eastern:Total War. Or Oriental:Total War. Maybe Dragon:Total War.
Mabye Ch'ang period.

I don't think anyone can beat the title "Dynasty: Total War"

:D

[Mailman653]

A WWI TW game....

[PBI]

The problem with another European setting is that a lot of the strategic richness of the game comes from the geography of the campaign map. Thus because we have had the same map for the last three games, in many ways we have been playing the same campaign. So the unit types and factions may have changed, but a lot has stayed the same: The English Channel is still effectively a moat for the British Isles, the Alps still form a natural border between wealthy Northern Italy and France and Germany, Sicily is always the gateway between the East and West Mediterranean, and the vast expanses of Russia always take ******* forever to march across. Plus it means that exploration essentially ceases to be a part of the game, since we already know where everything is.

That's why I feel the next game at least should have a non-European setting: I want a new continent to get to grips with, to learn the economic centers and defensive chokepoints. Since I know next to nothing about the geography of China, for example, a far East setting would work pretty well, as obviously would a made-up fantasy map. There are certainly plenty more interesting periods of European history to explore, but I think for the next installment the setting needs to be moved in space, not time. To simply have the same old campaign map once again, just with a few resources and cities moved around a bit, would make me feel like CA aren't really getting their money's worth out of the people who make the campaign map.

I always thought it would be nice if they could have included a "random map generator" a la Civilization. Although I can see why this isn't feasible for TW, it would be nice to be able to play on a map with some surprises in it.

Regarding a WWI game, I would love to see this as a mod (there are certain features I am hoping they will include in Empires which would make this more feasible) since I'm interested in the period but I'm not sure it would be varied enough to make a full game. The 4 years of the war would be much more focussed a time span than in any TW game so far, for one thing.

[Martok]

Re: World War and other modern eras: While I have no objection to games covering the period, I sincerely hope CA never creates a Total War title based in the 20th century. One of the attractions of the TW series is the sight of thousands of troops clashing with each other head-on with spears, swords, axes, pikes, etc. The series' focus is primarily on melee combat, not shooting at each other with rifles and machine guns.

As it is, Empire already has lesser appeal to many folks (including myself) because the era saw a greatly increased role in gunpowder (and cannons in particular); while it still had a role, melee fighting became a lot less prominent during that time. Not that I don't find the Colonial/Imperial era interesting (because I do), but I still have doubts as to how well it'll translate to the Total War brand. Realistically speaking, the time period covered by ETW is about the latest CA can go while still retaining hand-to-hand fighting as a viable tactic.

I always thought it would be nice if they could have included a "random map generator" a la Civilization. Although I can see why this isn't feasible for TW, it would be nice to be able to play on a map with some surprises in it.

Agreed. Of course, a random map generator would really only work with a fantasy-type game, but I could live with that.

[Mailman653]

Maybe its time for Caveman:TW It can be loosely based on history and still have those fantasy elements like unleashing a dinosaur on your enemies

And instead of Europe or Asia, we can have Pangea as a map and just divide that into territories.

[anders]

in reply to Martoks post about gunpowder taking ome of the appeal out of a TW:wwI/wwII game; the firearms isnt the main problem in adapting modern warfare to TW, its rather the problem of bringing a game based on compact cohesive units, and battles as affairs which are carried out by a limited number of men( although sometimes thousands) on a limited space, into an age when troopers move, pick targets and take cover individually, arty fires indirect fire from posistions thousands of meters away, armour moves in squads where the single units keep several hundred meters between them and the battle areas stretches for kilometers, and there are large scale battles lasting for days interspersed with limited engagements lasting for minutes.

I just dont see how this could be portrayed within the frames of the current TW tactical concept. and WWII small-scale fighting is one thing, and is portrayed well enough in CoH, Panzers etc, while larger battles can be done in games which keep the action on the operational level, but how could current TW, which both lets you see individual soldiers and the operational level, portray something like the battle of stalingrad? Games like Total Annihilation does this, but they are wery different from the TW we know and (mostly) love.

[rajpoot]

Well considering all that's been said, I think that after they're done with the xpacks of ETW, maybe brought it to the end of the 19th century and added new area specific content like they did with M2TW, it's going to be remake time. Because it doesn't seem that they have any more time periods for pure TW style games, and I doubt they'll simply drop such a good series. So who knows, we might have a Shogun 2 Total War, and then a Rome 2 and maybe even a M3TW........fingers crossed for that!

[Martok]

anders: Those are also excellent points. (They actually occurred to me too, but I admit I was too lazy to bother articulating them. Perhaps that's just as well, though, as I think you put it better than I could've anyway.)

Well considering all that's been said, I think that after they're done with the xpacks of ETW, maybe brought it to the end of the 19th century and added new area specific content like they did with M2TW, it's going to be remake time. Because it doesn't seem that they have any more time periods for pure TW style games, and I doubt they'll simply drop such a good series. So who knows, we might have a Shogun 2 Total War, and then a Rome 2 and maybe even a M3TW........fingers crossed for that!

To be honest, I think it's a little premature to start talking about more sequels, as there's still at least a few major time periods the Total War series hasn't yet covered. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I personally would love to see a TW title set in either ancient China or Bronze Age Greece (particularly around the time of the Persian invasions and the Peloponnesian War). There'd be plenty of factions, units, and diplomatic/political situations in both eras to make for an interesting game.

[PBI]

WWII is certainly way out, a TW version of that is more or less impossible as far as I'm concerned, but I think WWI might just about be do-able. Tanks were a relative rarity and a long way from being useable for mobile warfare, and most of the armies were still trying to use the sort of linear combat and large infantry formations we see in earlier games, so I think it might just about be possible to portray. CA have said that units in Empire will be able to make use of cover so trench warefare seems possible, and while long range artillery poses problems, it seems to me the same will be true of artillery in Empire. The problem is simply that it won't be very much fun fighting a largely defensive war of attrition using obsolete tactics, which is why I think it will appear only as a mod, not a full game or expansion.

I think the way the next installment will go will depend strongly upon how well Empires works; it is in my mind a proof of concept of whether gunpowder warfare works well in the TW format. If it does, I suspect the next installment will be the period either directly before or after Empires, if not I expect a more radical departure such as China. I certainly hope the series doesn't simply go down the road of endless remakes however; there are plenty of interesting historical periods and settings not yet explored (fenir and Martok suggested just a few of them), no need to simply keep revisiting the same old ones over and over with a few bells and whistles attached. The game needs either a new region or a new setting to keep it fresh; I much prefer playing a game with a setting I know next to nothing about than one I feel has no more surprises.

[anders]

some questions

what ranges did napoleonic artillery work from?

some of you mention a chinese setting, what were chinese warfare like?

is there reason for an ancient greek game when we already have rome( or a new rome after empire) which already has peltasts and phalanxes?

[Zenicetus]

in reply to Martoks post about gunpowder taking ome of the appeal out of a TW:wwI/wwII game; the firearms isnt the main problem in adapting modern warfare to TW, its rather the problem of bringing a game based on compact cohesive units, and battles as affairs which are carried out by a limited number of men( although sometimes thousands) on a limited space, into an age when troopers move, pick targets and take cover individually, arty fires indirect fire from posistions thousands of meters away, armour moves in squads where the single units keep several hundred meters between them and the battle areas stretches for kilometers, and there are large scale battles lasting for days interspersed with limited engagements lasting for minutes.

I agree. Unless TW gets completely away from the idea of controlling blocks of soldiers in fixed formations, it just doesn't have the flexibility to show WWII infantry combat. That's why games like CoH are successful: they stick to the company level with very small groups of soldiers.

My personal preference for a follow-up to Empire would be going back to ancient Greece and the rise of the city states, possibly following through to a remake of Rome (although maybe that would be the expansion). Starting earlier than the first Rome game would also make Egypt a more interesting faction to play. The sail-based naval combat engine in Empire might be easily adapted with the addition of rowing, and I'd love to see trireme combat. That could be spectacular. I think any follow-up game would probably be in an era where they could re-use the naval combat engine.

A second choice for me would be China/Three Kingdoms just for the cultural novelty.... although it does have some drawbacks like fewer factions, similar units, limited naval actions (mostly on rivers, IIRC). Ancient Greece/Egypt would probably be easier to market.

[WarMachine187]

Id love if they went back to all the former tw eras.Escpiacially STW.I think after empires they should take a step back.empires will be great but hopefully theyll fix the ai problem and multiplayer issues.I agree with Zenecetus,the three kingdoms era would be awesome to play.Great tacticians like Cao Cao,zhuge liang, plus cult heroes like gan ning,Lubu,etc.Sea warfare would nice considering the scale of naval battles fought during that time a la chibi.

[The_Reckoning]

I like how much enthusiasm the idea of an oriental TW is getting.

Apart from what has been said about WWI/WWII, I don't think it will happen simply because of how saturated the WWII RTS market is. But yeah, warfare totally changed and became more about grand strategy than individual battles, and battles began being indiscrete.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient..._States_Period

That and all the dynasties below it are extremely ripe for a game to be made. The only China RTS that comes to mind is Three Kingdoms: Fate of the Dragon.

some questions

what ranges did napoleonic artillery work from?

some of you mention a chinese setting, what were chinese warfare like?

is there reason for an ancient greek game when we already have rome( or a new rome after empire) which already has peltasts and phalanxes?

I could see them making a Greek city-states campaign as part of a Kingdoms-sytle expansion for Rome: TW II. That would be good. They could pick the time just around when the Persians tried to expand into Greece, with your city-state having the option to submit to them and take penalties to economy, or fighting them. The event could be triggered and the AI factions, as well as the player, all choose Yes[submit] or No[fight], and then all the AI factions either going to war against them or against you.

:D