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Thread: Late Term Abortion

  1. #151

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    No anti-choice advocate has yet explained to me why a person has the right to live and feed off another person.
    Children live and feed off of their parents until the age of 16-20 (35 for the extreme case lol).

    People who have sex accept the possibility of becoming pregnant. The baby has the right to feed off of the mother because she said it could. First she said it could by having sex, then by not aborting it while it was still unconscious. Obvious exceptions made for girls who are underage or who were raped. Also obvious exceptions if the pregnancy significantly threatens the health of the mother, or if the baby has a serious enough medical condition (metabolic disorders, no working kidney's etc). There may be a couple other exceptions I can't recall at the moment.

    If the none of the exceptions are met I have to disagree with you Adrian. Pregnancy and child birth are harsh to deal with but that's life, sometimes you just have to suck it up. If you don't want the baby give it up for adoption.

  2. #152
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizashi View Post
    If you look at how many people are jailed every year for Marijuana Possession, it becomes clear how devastating jailing abortionists would become on our current funding for Prisons, and is a problem (much like Marijuana is now) that will continually persist.
    Fine them. Heavily.

  3. #153
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizashi View Post
    We have discovered that after we have killed certain "guilty" people, all evidence actually points out that they were innocent. This doesn't happen a lot, but it happens and is worthy to note. So it would seem hypocritical to kill a prisoner, who could later be found to be innocent, and not abort a fetus (during the first trimester of course) who is also innocent. I refuse to play that moral game.
    The question it seems, is not whether abortion should be banned or not, but what is "human"?. Its not very defined, and the argument for or against aborting a fetus is superfluous. You ban it, and it will still happen, only another innocent person (along with fetus) is putting their life in danger, physically and/or judiciously. If you don't put restrictions on it (such as late term abortions without direct physical danger to the mother) and it could very well be abused, not just by uneducated teen girls, but also partners who "don't think its the right time yet."

    Unfortunately, it is a quagmire topic, and nobody can agree wholeheartedly, and I wouldn't expect it to. However, having studied law for several years now, and having read the Inalienable Rights of Man, a fetus which cannot sustain life outside the mothers womb is not a citizen of this country, is not human as Children have rights of their own Inalienable Rights, under sed Human Rights Articles, which have been provisioned under the United States Constitution.

    "Inalienable (Individual) Rights are: natural rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They are the most fundamental set of human rights, natural means not-granted nor conditional. They are applicable only to humans, as the basic necessity of their survival."

    These rights can only be applicable to the "holder" of the Fetus, as naturally the mother's right to Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness trumps.

    Liberty is divided into four types : natural, personal, civil and political. The first two are inalienable, the latter two are government granted. What this means, is essentially, that in Nature's law, and in her own personal world, if a mother wants an abortion, she will have it. Civil Law, however can regulate her own personal views, but it cannot ban them entirely. If you look at how many people are jailed every year for Marijuana Possession, it becomes clear how devastating jailing abortionists would become on our current funding for Prisons, and is a problem (much like Marijuana is now) that will continually persist. This is why, Society's views on Marijuana have softened so much, its more acceptable because it is widespread, and theres very little we can do to actually stop it. Not to mention, it isn't that heinous.

    Now it falls under the "mother's" Pursuit of Happiness; because we cannot completely get rid of abortions entirely, it can still be regulated up to a point. Under Civil Law, which is what this argument would fall under, if we ban abortion, then Mother's who seek out such a practice, would not get proper medical treatment, and the mother puts herself in great risk, of death, or contracting an infection, or illness. You get hedge-abortionists, who may not have qualification to do the job, which leads to the possibility of causing undue stress or harm unto the child, before it's death. I'd rather have it done as professionally, as clean, and as harmless as possible to both mother, and safely dead fetus.
    I dont see how the mothers prusuit of happnies trumps the babies life. An infant is just as depandant on its mother as a fetous and when people kill infants there is an outrage. Saying it should be legal becuase others will get hurt isnt a valid arguement. They will only get hurt if they choose to break a law and they will only be put in that postion by a personal choice they made.

    causing undue stress or harm unto the child, before it's death.
    Biut its just a clump of cells......
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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  4. #154
    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I dont see how the mothers prusuit of happnies trumps the babies life. An infant is just as depandant on its mother as a fetous and when people kill infants there is an outrage. Saying it should be legal becuase others will get hurt isnt a valid arguement. They will only get hurt if they choose to break a law and they will only be put in that postion by a personal choice they made.
    During the first Trimester, a fetus is just a clump of cells, ergo the fact that it has no rights as a human being. But, hey, if you want to go make an amendment be my guest, just don't get pissy when it turns out much like the 18th amendment, it gets overturned in a couple of years and we're all worse off for it. But, hey I don't like Alcohol that much anyways, do you think I should go throw every person who drinks in the poky? or fine them heavily?

    Or Beef. A cow has the right to live! No Beef, or cowboy hats for you. And I don't like Texas much as a state, we should turn texas into about ten smaller states, and give at least one of them to Mexico...

  5. #155
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Re: Adrian

    I know you aren't inline with Xiahou or Crazed Rabbit on gun rights, and I'm not sure where you stand on home defense in general, so this analogy may not be meaningful to you. If not, I apologize for my poor attempt.

    A person has the right to defend their home from invasion. If an armed intruder comes into their house and threatens their person, family, or property, they have the right to attack and possibly kill the intruder. It is not the same if the intruder has been invited in. I cannot invite a neighbor I dislike to my home, then kill him, and claim I am innocent because he had invaded my home. It's flawed to say a woman has the complete right to abortion simply because the fetus is invading her person. She has in most cases invited it in by voluntarily engaging in sex. Involuntary impregnation is of course another matter.

    The analogy breaks down somewhat, since the homeowner can demand the guest leave, and if the guest refuses to leave they become an invader and the rules of the game shift. The fetus does not have the ability to voluntarily leave the womb if the mother demands it goes.

    Overall, the issue comes back to the same place it always does. When does a fetus become a human--or in legal terms, when does it become a person--with rights of its own. As Viking points out, the cells involved have always been alive, since prior to fertilization on. If all living human cells have a right to life, masturbation is mass murder. Life is not the issue: humanity/personhood is. The traditional lines in the sand (conception and birth) are both very unconvincing to me, and any line between those is, as Viking has said, arbitrary. For legal purposes, it must be drawn, just as an arbitrary line between child and adult (for purposes such as voting rights, substance use rights, driving privileges, sexual consent, method of trial, etc.) has been drawn (or rather, several have been drawn depending on the issue). I don't know where the best place to draw that line is. The beginning of the third trimester seems a reasonable place, and it sounds like most of the western world has chosen something along those lines. America is still struggling with the issue.

    Ajax

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  6. #156

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Why does being human give you a right to life anyway?

  7. #157
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    Why does being human give you a right to life anyway?
    Well the Declaration of Human Rights does specifically state the right to life.
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  8. #158
    Prince of Maldonia Member Toby and Kiki Champion, Goo Slasher Champion, Frogger Champion woad&fangs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    What's the Declaration of Human Rights? I've never heard of it before.
    Why did the chicken cross the road?

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    chicken's dominion maintained. ~Machiavelli

  9. #159
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Isn't it something to do with the UN charter...
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  10. #160
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  11. #161

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Well, I'm glad the wise men of the UN figured that all out for us. Phew.


  12. #162
    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    Well, I'm glad the wise men of the UN figured that all out for us. Phew.

    But the wording is largely taken from the US Declaration of Independence. The UN Charter only adds you know... some minor tweeks, like rights of Children, Amnesty, and so forth... that most countries outside of Europe haven't adopted.

  13. #163
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    Well, I'm glad the wise men of the UN figured that all out for us. Phew.

    Do you think humans should not have the right to life?

  14. #164
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Do you think humans should not have the right to life?
    No, it is a privilege that can be lost.

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  15. #165

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Do you think humans should not have the right to life?
    Why should we/they? I don't have a coherent answer, just thought I'd take the thread in a different direction.

    It doesn't really follow that simply being born grants you such rights.

    And it is also only humans that are granted a right to life, why only our species and no others?

  16. #166
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    And it is also only humans that are granted a right to life, why only our species and no others?
    Because there are two different forms of life:

    1. Humans.
    2. Food.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  17. #167

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Weren't you earlier denying the humanity of foetuses but it is somewhat harder to deny their status as living things, thus they are food? I think there's something a bit more objectionable about eating the things than just aborting them.

  18. #168
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    Why should we/they? I don't have a coherent answer, just thought I'd take the thread in a different direction.
    A better question is why shouldn't humans in general (to answer rory's statement) have the right to live? Why does one innocent human have more of a right to live than another?

    It doesn't really follow that simply being born grants you such rights.
    Why not? You were born, and you don't have the right to live if you wish to? Sounds like how Hitler thought about the Jews to me.

    And it is also only humans that are granted a right to life, why only our species and no others?
    We were intelligent and strong enough to assert our dominance. Besides, scientifically, humans are omnivores. Therefore, animals are viewed in the same way plants are - as resources, as food. Of course, taboos exist.

  19. #169

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Why not? You were born, and you don't have the right to live if you wish to? Sounds like how Hitler thought about the Jews to me.
    No, it doesn't. I'm not removing a single group's right to an existence. Everyone can die.

    I'm not saying I, or anyone else, should have the right to kill on a whim, but I don't think anyone has an inherent right to be alive. After all, what has anyone done to earn that right?

    We were intelligent and strong enough to assert our dominance. Besides, scientifically, humans are omnivores. Therefore, animals are viewed in the same way plants are - as resources, as food. Of course, taboos exist.
    I don't think that should give us more rights to life, or a life without pain, than another species but I imagine most would disagree.

  20. #170
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizashi View Post
    During the first Trimester, a fetus is just a clump of cells, ergo the fact that it has no rights as a human being. But, hey, if you want to go make an amendment be my guest, just don't get pissy when it turns out much like the 18th amendment, it gets overturned in a couple of years and we're all worse off for it. But, hey I don't like Alcohol that much anyways, do you think I should go throw every person who drinks in the poky? or fine them heavily?

    Or Beef. A cow has the right to live! No Beef, or cowboy hats for you. And I don't like Texas much as a state, we should turn texas into about ten smaller states, and give at least one of them to Mexico...
    Abortion shoudnt be legal in a perfect wrold yes But not now. I am deeply saddened by this fact but when there is no decency left in the wrold I guess thats how it is Equating humans with cows has no plaice in this disscusion. Human life is worth much more you know this and your Texas refrence is made merley to get a rise out of me nice try.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 06-19-2008 at 04:03.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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  21. #171
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Why not? You were born, and you don't have the right to live if you wish to? Sounds like how Hitler thought about the Jews to me.
    Godwin's law!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
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  22. #172
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    There should be some kind of Godwins law about godwins law... the longer the conversation continues the more chance of it being invoked....
    In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!

  23. #173
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    There should be some kind of Godwins law about godwins law... the longer the conversation continues the more chance of it being invoked....
    Then the person who invokes Godwin's Law first automatically loses the argument.

  24. #174
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    There should be some kind of Godwins law about godwins law... the longer the conversation continues the more chance of it being invoked....
    Let's just call it Godwin's 2nd law.
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  25. #175
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    Weren't you earlier denying the humanity of foetuses but it is somewhat harder to deny their status as living things, thus they are food? I think there's something a bit more objectionable about eating the things than just aborting them.
    Plants are living things. Fetuses are living things too.

    And I like to mow my lawn.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  26. #176

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Ok. So? It's not simply being alive that gives you a right to life then, is it?

  27. #177
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    Ok. So? It's not simply being alive that gives you a right to life then, is it?
    Nope. Being human does.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  28. #178

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    What exactly is it about being human that gives us that right?

    Because I can guarantee there is at least one animal that shares that quality with us. Oh, and no 'us vs them' crap.

  29. #179
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    Craterus, are you arguing just against a natural right to life, or are you arguing there is no such thing as natural right whatsoever? Because it seems the right to life is pretty fundamental to any system of rights. If humans do not have an inherent right to life, governments would need no reason to execute someone, as doing so would not be a violation of their rights. Rights to property, freedom, expression, and so on would seem pretty meaningless without the right to life to support them. Where exactly do you want to take this argument?

    Ajax

    "I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
    "I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
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  30. #180

    Default Re: Late Term Abortion

    I'm just arguing against rights in general.

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