Regarding phoenicians and greeks

**Timoleon** · 06-25-2008, 13:55

PS: Thebes and other cities were most likely Phoenician colonies during the very archaic years, only to be conquered by Greeks and settled. Thebes was one of them according to this theory.

No this isn't true. Before the Archaic period, there was the Mycenaean civilization in the area of Greece. The Mycenaeans where Greeks and all the heroes of Homer are from this age. Before them, there was the Minoan civilization, centered in Crete. There was no such thing as Phoenician colonization of Greece.

**Vorian** · 06-25-2008, 15:32

Originally Posted by Timoleon

No this isn't true. Before the Archaic period, there was the Mycenaean civilization in the area of Greece. The Mycenaeans where Greeks and all the heroes of Homer are from this age. Before them, there was the Minoan civilization, centered in Crete. There was no such thing as Phoenician colonization of Greece.

Of course there were Myceneans. I said I have read a theory that Phoenicians (and Egyptians) colonised some islands and shores of western Greece in really, really ancient times causing all those myths of heroes coming from those areas. (Pelopas, Kadmos etc)

**/Bean\** · 06-25-2008, 16:37

Of course thats possible, but then human life developed in Africa and spread from there (according to the most widely accepted scientific theory today), so humans probably did come from the area now known as Egypt to get to Greece eventually, but that doesnt make them 'Egyptians' as such...just the hunter gatherer nomads, who settled in Greece after the Ice Age

**Vorian** · 06-25-2008, 18:03

Originally Posted by the Bean

Of course thats possible, but then human life developed in Africa and spread from there (according to the most widely accepted scientific theory today), so humans probably did come from the area now known as Egypt to get to Greece eventually, but that doesnt make them 'Egyptians' as such...just the hunter gatherer nomads, who settled in Greece after the Ice Age

Hunter and gatherer nomads appearing so long ago wouldn't leave impressions in Greek myths.

We have thse mythical figures:

a)Cadmos the Phoenician. He founded Thebes and brought the alphabet in Greece.
b)Pelops a Phrygian or Lydian that came to Greece and won a crown. The Peloponnese took its name from him
c)Danaos, brother of Aegyptus and son of Belus a mythical Egyptian king. He fled Egypt and went to Argos winning his crown.

And others I forget. These show some memories of rulers from the east.

**Cyclops** · 06-25-2008, 23:29

Originally Posted by Vorian

Hunter and gatherer nomads appearing so long ago wouldn't leave impressions in Greek myths.

We have thse mythical figures:

a)Cadmos the Phoenician. He founded Thebes and brought the alphabet in Greece.
b)Pelops a Phrygian or Lydian that came to Greece and won a crown. The Peloponnese took its name from him
c)Danaos, brother of Aegyptus and son of Belus a mythical Egyptian king. He fled Egypt and went to Argos winning his crown.

And others I forget. These show some memories of rulers from the east.

They also show that archaic/helladic peoples in the region weren't repelled by the idea of recognising/claiming descent from eastern folks. Perhaps there was less of an "us vs them" or superiority complex in the Helladic mindset?

I suspect that the real xenophobia comes after periods of Greek dominance and confidence: eg the Athenian resentment of Macedon after their brief empire fell, or increasing Macedonian/Hellenic contempt for Persia after Plataea/Xenephon/Alexander.

The Carthaginians bloodied the Greeks noses for them many a time, severely restricting them from the western Med (with Etruscan help c500 BCE IIRC) and denying them complete control of Sicily. Did the Karthis seek to colonise Sicvily, or were they trying to clear the field of commercial rivals and leave a light colonial rule?

I suspect the Hellenes respected them as hard opponents and commercial rivals. However there was a "Hellenic club" and its members were more likely to cooperate together against outsiders.

I imagine the Greeks never had contempt for the Karthis like they came to have for Persia, perhaps because they never conquered them.

**Vorian** · 06-25-2008, 23:40

The Carthaginians bloodied the Greeks noses for them many a time, severely restricting them from the western Med (with Etruscan help c500 BCE IIRC) and denying them complete control of Sicily. Did the Karthis seek to colonise Sicvily, or were they trying to clear the field of commercial rivals and leave a light colonial rule?

Well they did have colonies in the Western part. Imo, they fought Greeks for the same reasons they later fought Romans. Control of Sicily and western Meditarennean trade

**Hax** · 06-25-2008, 23:46

b)Pelops a Phrygian or Lydian that came to Greece and won a crown. The Peloponnese took its name from him

Wasn't he the grandson of Tantalos?

**Jolt** · 06-25-2008, 16:42

Originally Posted by Timoleon

No this isn't true. Before the Archaic period, there was the Mycenaean civilization in the area of Greece. The Mycenaeans where Greeks and all the heroes of Homer are from this age. Before them, there was the Minoan civilization, centered in Crete. There was no such thing as Phoenician colonization of Greece.

There are also theories about Phoenician/Minoan colonization of the Iberian Peninsula that date as far as into the Calcolithic. It was in that era that monumentalized settlements began appearing in regions which were rich in mineral deposits, leading many historians to think that even by that age, the Phoenicians/Minoans were already establishing colonies in the Peninsula. So it wouldn't be that farfetched to believe that the Phoenicians settled in some Greek lands.