I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars

[Devastatin Dave]

Why is that Dave, do you have some fetish about living next to someone who says they made a mistake and if they had the chance again they wouldn't have done what they did ?

:

Not a fetish, just an understanding that the law enforcement in this country is slow to react, court systems are filled with weak justice against criminals, and happy that these two wastes of human skin will never commit a crime again.

[Fragony]

Those men made a conscious decision to commit to criminal activity and all the inherent risks associated with such an endeavor.

Just like there is work and play there is using the law an living the law, or at least there should be. If we were robots we wouldn't need laws, but we aren't, this sounds like living the law gone wrong.

[Ser Clegane]

Easy to say as an observer. Still, what would you do if someone broke into your home and you had a weapon? Let them get away with it because life is so precious?

Sooo ... death penalty for burglars and thieves? And I thought cutting off hands was already pretty harsh punishment...

And to answer your question (although you did not ask me) - when someone stole something from me, my first thought was definitely not "Gosh - if I had a gun now I would so kill this guy".

Those men made a conscious decision to commit to criminal activity and all the inherent risks associated with such an endeavor.

Based on that I would suggest that people also should be shot on the spot for e.g. speeding or drunk driving (even more so as these people are a direct threat to the safety and lives of other people)

[Xiahou]

If a grand jury failed to indict him, it must've been pretty clear cut. Ever hear the saying "A DA could convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwhich?" Basically, the grand jury said there wasn't even enough evidence of a crime to even warrant a trial.

[Lemur]

Thank you, Xiahou, for explaining what a Grand Jury does. If any Orgahs are curious to read more about this, please note that Wikipedia has a helpful article here. If you believe that Wikipedia is a tool of the liberal elite latte-sipping commies, Conservapedia has an article here.

[Tribesman]

Not a fetish, just an understanding that the law enforcement in this country is slow to react

Pehaps you had better choose another case to rave about then as the police were on the scene while this old fella was still on the phone being told to stay in his house .

Sooo ... death penalty for burglars and thieves? And I thought cutting off hands was already pretty harsh punishment...

Based on that I would suggest that people also should be shot on the spot for e.g. speeding or drunk driving (even more so as these people are a direct threat to the safety and lives of other people)

thats completely nailed em on that arguement

[PanzerJaeger]

The thugs themselves are responsible for their own deaths, and no one else. Focusing the discussion on a terrified old man, the victim, completely misses the cause in order to scrutinize the effect.

[FactionHeir]

Sooo ... death penalty for burglars and thieves? And I thought cutting off hands was already pretty harsh punishment...

And to answer your question (although you did not ask me) - when someone stole something from me, my first thought was definitely not "Gosh - if I had a gun now I would so kill this guy".

Not exactly what I said.
I said If you had a weapon and someone was robbing your home, what would you do? rather than what you would be thinking if someone were to rob your home.
So you already have a weapon, would you use it at all or just let him steal everything right in front of you? How would this be modified if he were to break into the kids' room (with intention of stealing only, but you can't know this)?

I don't think they should get a death penalty in court, but I think the person being robbed should be able to defend themselves with deadly force without being jailed themselves rather than stand idly by.

[PanzerJaeger]

Based on that I would suggest that people also should be shot on the spot for e.g. speeding or drunk driving (even more so as these people are a direct threat to the safety and lives of other people)

I completely agree. If I ever caught someone speeding or drunk driving on my property, I'd chase them off guns a' blazing as it would be very dangerous on such a small lot.

[Tribesman]

Focusing the discussion on a terrified old man, the victim, completely misses the cause in order to scrutinize the effect.

How was he a victim ?
Or given that he chose to leave his home and confront two people despite the advice of the dispatcher how was he terrified ?
He is only a victim in that he thought he knew the law but didn't so he was a victim of his own ignorance , and he was ony terrified in that choosing to take the action in ignorance of the law meant he got scared about a possible prosecution .

[Adrian II]

Thank you, Xiahou, for explaining what a Grand Jury does. If any Orgahs are curious to read more about this, please note that Wikipedia has a helpful article here. If you believe that Wikipedia is a tool of the liberal elite latte-sipping commies, Conservapedia has an article here.

Lemur, your belief in human reason is truly touching. But don't you see it? They're off already on the usual rants, as if nothing happened.

[Ser Clegane]

So you already have a weapon, would you use it at all or just let him steal everything right in front of you? How would this be modified if he were to break into the kids' room (with intention of stealing only, but you can't know this)?

If somebody like in the original case stole something from me (or a person I know) and was already running away (and this has happened to me) - I can only repeat that I did not feel like killing him.
Sure ... I was upset and angry - but killing? Sorry, I do not like my stuff that much that I would kill for it. The breaking into the kids' room is an entirely different situation and chances are that if I had any kind of weapon I would use it in such a situation - but as I said - completely different scenario.

[Lemur]

He is only a victim in that he thought he knew the law but didn't so he was a victim of his own ignorance , and he was ony terrified in that choosing to take the action in ignorance of the law meant he got scared about a possible prosecution .

Another one who isn't reading what I posted. There is a law in Texas that covers this situation, and it's clearly on his side.

Details can be found here.

[Ser Clegane]

I completely agree. If I ever caught someone speeding or drunk driving on my property, I'd chase them off guns a' blazing as it would be very dangerous on such a small lot.

[Devastatin Dave]

Dashing, Daring Dave, and this supports your post how? I was quoting the relevant bit of Texas law in support of what the guy did. So how does this justify your "too bad the jury disagrees with you, Lemur" comment?

Look, I love getting love-bites from you, but please read what I write before nibbling on me, okay?

Let's get back to more important matters, like how very right I was. I predicted he wouldn't even be charged. Several Orgahs pooh-poohed me at the time. You know who you are! I want all of those Orgahs who said I was wrong to now go to their User Profile and write "Lemur was right" a hundred times.

-edit-

Wait a minute, I think I see where the misunderstanding happened. It's all my fault. I said that the "castle doctrine" didn't apply in this case, which is correct. Then I quoted a bit of a different statute, the part that does apply. But I phrased it in such a way that you could read it and think I was quoting the castle doctrine.

Ugh. My bad! Once again:

Castle doctrine does not apply in this case.

However, there is a relevant Texas law which does, and which covers exactly the circumstances which occurred. Here are excerpts from that law:

According to the statute, deadly force is justified if the shooter "reasonably believes" it's immediately necessary to stop the burglars from escaping with the stolen property. It's also justified if the shooter "reasonably believes" that "the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means."

Hope that goes some small way to clearing up teh confusion. And I'm still right.

My misunderstanding, allow me to say...
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Oh, Lemur was right BTW...

[PanzerJaeger]

How was he a victim ?

How were the two men any more victims?

[Lemur]

I don't think it's physically possible for me to get tired of that.

[Adrian II]

I don't think it's physically possible for me to get tired of that.

Good Lord, DevDave actually went and did it ...

That makes three of us who are, properly speaking, in and of this thread.

[FactionHeir]

If somebody like in the original case stole something from me (or a person I know) and was already running away (and this has happened to me) - I can only repeat that I did not feel like killing him.
Sure ... I was upset and angry - but killing? Sorry, I do not like my stuff that much that I would kill for it. The breaking into the kids' room is an entirely different situation and chances are that if I had any kind of weapon I would use it in such a situation - but as I said - completely different scenario.

Sorry someone stole from you, hope you got it back

But the case here was that he witnessed them in the process of removing goods (they were crawling out of a window) and then running out with things rather than seeing them as they were already running away. Also, he went out and told them to stop, but instead of running with or without the things, they actually came up to him (entering his property) and threatened him.

[InsaneApache]

In response to the question aimed at me, it's proportional action. If you advocate the death penalty for murder, that I could understand. At one point in my life I felt the same. As SC eloquently put it, killing a bloke for nicking your record player [I'm an old fogey ] is a bit OTT.

Hey, I just had a thought.......they wern't atheist homos as well were they?

[Tribesman]

Another one who isn't reading what I posted. There is a law in Texas that covers this situation, and it's clearly on his side.

Yes but he was ignorant of that law wasn't he

[Devastatin Dave]

Not exactly what I said.
I said If you had a weapon and someone was robbing your home, what would you do? rather than what you would be thinking if someone were to rob your home.
So you already have a weapon, would you use it at all or just let him steal everything right in front of you? How would this be modified if he were to break into the kids' room (with intention of stealing only, but you can't know this)?

I don't think they should get a death penalty in court, but I think the person being robbed should be able to defend themselves with deadly force without being jailed themselves rather than stand idly by.

Well of course Ser would invite them to sit down and have a calm discussion on the reasons why these criminals (law deprived individuals for the PC crowed out there) were put into this position by the evil capitalists and how they should join and overthrow their oppressive governments. Then they would join hands and skip down the road in solidarity and love and all crime would cease. Global warming would end, George Bush would be hung, and no one would ever be hungry or cold again. Universal healthcare for everyone...

[Reverend Joe]

Allow me to try to resolve this issue. And I'm gonna put it in big, bold letters so nobody can miss it.

They were running away.

Had the two men been killed inside his house, it would have been justified, because the man could argue that his life was in danger.

But his life was not in danger. They were running away. And it wasn't even his house being robbed. He had no reason to follow them outside and place himself, the two robbers, AND POSSIBLY INNOCENT BYSTANDERS in jeporady.

To continue this further, I might also add that, had the robbers been unarmed, and had the man followed them outside with a baseball bat and disabled them, without killing them, there still would be no problem. The two men could be arrested and prosecuted, and the guy would get his precious damn TV back.

But killing them is vigilante justice, and our society has agreed that, outside of your home, the only people allowed to use lethal force in the pursuit of justice are the authorities.*

*Well, up until now, anyway.

[Xiahou]

Another one who isn't reading what I posted. There is a law in Texas that covers this situation, and it's clearly on his side.

Details can be found here.

I was just about to link that article, it gives detail that other coverage seems to lack. One salient piece of information is that the burglars were indeed on Horn's property at the time they were shot. More and more, it sounds to me like Horn was well within the law in his actions. That doesn't make him a hero, but it certainly doesn't make him a criminal either.

What I'd really like to read, if someone can find it, is the full transcript of the 911 call. I've read several different "versions" of it already and I'm wondering how much creative editing the papers are doing to make it better fit their stories.

[Lemur]

You can listen to what appears to be an unedited version here.

[FactionHeir]

Allow me to try to resolve this issue. And I'm gonna put it in big, bold letters so nobody can miss it.

They were running away.

Had the two men been killed inside his house, it would have been justified, because the man could argue that his life was in danger.

But his life was not in danger. They were running away. And it wasn't even his house being robbed. He had no reason to follow them outside and place himself, the two robbers, AND POSSIBLY INNOCENT BYSTANDERS in jeporady.

To continue this further, I might also add that, had the robbers been unarmed, and had the man followed them outside with a baseball bat and disabled them, without killing them, there still would be no problem. The two men could be arrested and prosecuted, and the guy would get his precious damn TV back.

But killing them is vigilante justice, and our society has agreed that, outside of your home, the only people allowed to use lethal force in the pursuit of justice are the authorities.*

*Well, up until now, anyway.

Well, let's see.
1. They were in the process of stealing when he noticed them and called 911.
2. He only went outside when they ran with the goods and crossed his property
3. He told them to stop but they didn't.
4. He shot, but we don't know if the intended to kill with those shots.
5. You expect a 61 year old man to keep up with two young men and manage to beat them with a baseball bat?

[Xiahou]

You can listen to what appears to be an unedited version here.

Excellent, thank you.

[Fragony]

I was just about to link that article, it gives detail that other coverage seems to lack. One salient piece of information is that the burglars were indeed on Horn's property at the time they were shot. More and more, it sounds to me like Horn was well within the law in his actions. That doesn't make him a hero, but it certainly doesn't make him a criminal either.

But this sure is a precedent nonetheless, from now on the machine will refer to a case where... well this does take it a bit far no?

[Ser Clegane]

Well of course Ser would invite them to sit down and have a calm discussion

Actually, being the nice guy that I am, I would help them carrying the heavy stuff to their van like a good boyscout.

[CrossLOPER]

Death for everything by on-site civilian court!


octosquid