Then again, maybe in the right cases, the death penalty should be allowed

[Lord Winter]

Well, you could also ask why is a life worth keeping? What is so bad about killing? Animals kill other animals constantly for food, noone would say that's a bad thing, in war we kill others, in self defense it's even seen as okay but when a murderer or rapist is caught his life suddenly gets some value that has to be kept by locking him up until he dies of something else which basically means ending his life until it really ends because in prison he doesn't have a lot to live for anyway, unless we're talking about Norway which has luxury prisons that everyone leaves as a productive member of society in which case it actually makes sense to lock people up instead of shooting them at the scene which is much cheaper.

When people talk about love, they often come up with how we are still animals and hardwired to do this or that, well yeah, let's apply my animalistic, selfish instincts here as well and say if he isn't doing any good to me let's get rid of him, plain and simple, we're just wired that way.
Despite that, even a murderer is just a hull of protein and water with biochemical reactions inside but I said that before.

I may be missing your point but are you saying that life has no value? Then why in that logic isn't the murderer justified if all he killed is a hull of protein and water with biocehem reactions? I think the thing about opposition to the death penalty is believing that no one has the right to take away life in a cold planned matter. Not even the government.

2. Well, God Isn't talking about it, so God will understand, trust me. And the non Believers, if they say none, then.......?

Divine will isn't that simple.

[Husar]

I may be missing your point but are you saying that life has no value? Then why in that logic isn't the murderer justified if all he killed is a hull of protein and water with biocehem reactions?

I mentioned selfishness didn't I? I happen to like that other bunch of protein more than the killer so I decided that he should die, if you disagree we will see who the stronger is, man that even fits nature again, the stronger survive...
I like Fenring's argument that we cannot always be sure unless someone, preferably many, identified the killer 100%.
Oh and my point was that I cannot see where, as an atheist(who sees humans as the kind of soulless biochemical robots), one draws the value of life from but that's a different topic and I'm sorry for almost deriving this one.

I think the thing about opposition to the death penalty is believing that no one has the right to take away life in a cold planned matter. Not even the government.

How about taking life in a lovingly quickly-decided manner? Does the value of life fade away then or is the murderer just a pervert in that case?
Reminds me of this book where the father kills his daughter because he loves her so much and wants to protect her from the power of that prince who wants to use her for himself. Is that okay? Is it romantic or trgaic? Consider that she agreed with it. Did her life have no value or should the father be punished for it?

[PBI]

Oh and my point was that I cannot see where, as an atheist(who sees humans as the kind of soulless biochemical robots), one draws the value of life from but that's a different topic and I'm sorry for almost deriving this one.

Actually, one could argue that human life is more valuable for an atheist, since they believe there is no afterlife so when someone is gone, they're gone. However, it is, as you say, off topic.

Regarding the death penalty, as others have said the purpose of the justice system is not to exact vengeance on behalf of the victim. Of course, if someone I love were murdered, while I would hope I would have the strength to forgive the murderer, in truth I would probably want to kill the murderer in revenge. However I don't see why it's the job of the state to exact that revenge for me. If I were sufficiently determined to exact revenge, I should be willing to do the job myself rather than expecting someone else to become a murderer in cold blood for me. If I truly regarded that prison were not enough of a punishment, doing a prison sentence of my own for exacting revenge would surely be a small price to pay.

The state has already done its job by locking the guy up for life, thus preventing him commiting any further crimes.

[yesdachi]

I have been to this party before and I love it. There is nothing that can make people more alive than talking about death.

I look at the situation from 3 angles. Protection of the people, the cost of the protection and the morality of the consequences of the protection.

Bad people need to be removed from society to protect the good people. If the bad people cannot be rehabilitated or at least learn their lesson after a time, they stay in prison forever, ensuring that society is protected from them forever.

This is where the cost of the protection kicks in for me; IIRC 20% of Michigan’s state budget is spent on jails and prisons and the social impact of having a so many people in prison cant be measured, but how many prison guards turn into jerks after dealing with so many hardcore criminals everyday, how many rehabilitateable inmates are not given a chance because they are influenced by the worst offenders in existence? There are an average of 6-7 hundred murders and 5,000+ rapes in Michigan each year. Other inmates, guards and society in general would be better off with the people who have committed those crimes gone, permanently.

From a moral perspective, I feel bad about it but I simply don’t care about someone who can not be trusted to live next door to my family. rapists, murders, child molesters stop being people and become animals or monsters even, when they commit those types of crimes and just like I don’t have a problem putting down a rabid dog to permanently protect society from it I do not have a problem permanently protecting society from a human who has turned into a monster, is a bad influence on the people around them and a fiscal drag on the state. MI spends nearly 2 billion a year on prisons, that’s more than we spend on public universities. Spending money to keep monsters alive while cutting funds that educate our children is counter productive to me and overrides any moral objection I could have to the death penalty.

That said I do think our judicial system is a mess and there is no “speedy trial” and the current process to convict someone for almost anything is unbelievably long and drawn out and we do occasionally catch the wrong guy, etc. Michigan hasn’t had a death penalty execution since 1837 and I don’t think we are ready to make a change so I am pretty much just talking about my own thoughts on the subject.

[Ronin]

Sometimes there are crimes that stir up our thirst for bloody revenge.
but revenge is an emotional response, it does not equal justice and is not a valid motive.

The justice system is supposed to dish out justice as best as it can, it´s not there to fulfill the blood lust one might feel.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Sometimes there are crimes that stir up our thirst for bloody revenge.
but revenge is an emotional response, it does not equal justice and is not a valid motive.

But what is justice? It differs. However, justice is supposed to be fair. In my opinion, a death sentence for a premediated murder is fair.

[Ronin]

But what is justice? It differs. However, justice is supposed to be fair. In my opinion, a death sentence for a premediated murder is fair.

a death sentence is a premeditated killing also....

in my view if a society codifies in it´s laws that a certain behavior is incorrect (i.e. murder) then you can´t use the same behavior as punishment....that would be hypocrisy to say the very least.

[Ironside]

This is where the cost of the protection kicks in for me; IIRC 20% of Michigan’s state budget is spent on jails and prisons and the social impact of having a so many people in prison cant be measured, but how many prison guards turn into jerks after dealing with so many hardcore criminals everyday, how many rehabilitateable inmates are not given a chance because they are influenced by the worst offenders in existence? There are an average of 6-7 hundred murders and 5,000+ rapes in Michigan each year. Other inmates, guards and society in general would be better off with the people who have committed those crimes gone, permanently.

Execution for (saving) money? Why do I find that there's something wrong there?

Anyway, unless you got really serious problems in the US, I assume that you're not the nation with the most prisoners in the world (well offical statistics, some dictorships like China might beat you in the unofficial stats) due to murderers and rapists.

So even if you're doing execution for budget reasons it still won't work...

[LittleGrizzly]

I hear it costs more to kill them with the all the appeals, but you can't really avoid them if you want to make sure you've got the right. Basically if you want to kill someone you have to be prepared to pay more....

[yesdachi]

Execution for (saving) money? Why do I find that there's something wrong there?

Anyway, unless you got really serious problems in the US, I assume that you're not the nation with the most prisoners in the world (well offical statistics, some dictorships like China might beat you in the unofficial stats) due to murderers and rapists.

So even if you're doing execution for budget reasons it still won't work...

I am not trying to compare the number of prisoners in china to Michigan or even the US, what I am trying to make note of is our prisoners cost over 30k each per year, even more for the elderly due to failing health and the related medical treatments. If we executed the rapists, murders and child molesters each year we would save at least 200 million dollars a year on just new offenders. The stats are unknown for the deterrent factor on future years but that’s an easy 10% reduction on the budget by just getting rid of this years offenders and we might stand a chance of rehabilitating some of the inmates now that they are not stuck in a cell next to the nastiest criminals around. And I have to believe that the guards are going to be a little nicer to their families when they get home after not dealing with monsters all day.

Yes, I know it can be argued that it costs more to execute someone than it does to sentence them to life in prison (lifers get appeals too, I would like to see a real, unbiased report on it) but I already mentioned that I think the system is lame. Add the cost of all the things a death penalty prisoner gets that are in addition to what a lifer gets then amortize it over the cost of their life expectancy, I have a difficult time believing it can be that different. Fix the system, relieve the burden and protect society – there’s my platform for the next senate race!