American congress get maid

[PanzerJaeger]

I'd like to see where Germany has any claim to Poland, other than the agressive conquest in the Second World War.

Why so serious?


EDIT: Lets have some fun.

Poland was a creation of Versailles, 123 years after it fell apart due to its own weakness. There were a lot of nations around in 1795 that were absorbed into larger states - do they all deserve to get in on that action?

[KarlXII]

Why so serious?


EDIT: Lets have some fun.

Poland was a creation of Versailles, 123 years after it fell apart due to its own weakness. There were a lot of nations around in 1795 that were absorbed into larger states - do they all deserve to get in on that action?

With the same reasoning, Germany should start looking like this:


I mean, Germany did fall apart due to it's own weakness, why not split it back up?

[PanzerJaeger]

With the same reasoning, Germany should start looking like this:


I mean, Germany did fall apart due to it's own weakness, why not split it back up?

Now you're thinking.

"The Germany of today is no longer a great nation, it has become a province of Europe."

-Joachim Peiper

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I mean, Germany did fall apart due to it's own weakness, why not split it back up?

Germany is partitioned.

[Brenus]

"It certainly does, especially when you didn't start the first one that led to the second." Didn't but helped the one which did (Austria against Serbia) then invaded a neutral country (Belgium) then...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Didn't but helped the one which did (Austria against Serbia) then invaded a neutral country (Belgium) then...

When France and Russia were massing troops on the German borders before the war and Germany needed to try to knock France out of the war quickly...

Really, you can't blame Germany for that war more than any other nation.

[LittleGrizzly]

After debates i have read on here i have decided world war 1 was equally the fault of the great powers, Russia and France had mobilised thier forces before Germany and if i understand the economics of it correctly there is no way russia and france could afford to mobilise thier forces and not use them.

[Conradus]

Blackadder already explained that decently.

[HoreTore]

It certainly does, especially when you didn't start the first one that led to the second.

The first one led to the second? No, a bunch of idiot germans led to the second.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The first one led to the second? No, a bunch of idiot germans led to the second.

If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.

[PBI]

If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.

I think it's fair to say it's a bit more complicated than that. Just like it's a little simplistic to say WWI was "Germany's fault".

[Louis VI the Fat]

The first one led to the second? No, a bunch of idiot germans led to the second.

Indeed.

If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.

'Boohoo...If only my mum would've bought me that XBox when I was eight and if only my teachers would've laid off on me when I was twelve and if only she wouldn't have dumped me then I would never have become a gas station robbing piece of trash your honour...boohoo...cry...whine....'

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think it's fair to say it's a bit more complicated than that. Just like it's a little simplistic to say WWI was "Germany's fault".

It is a bit more complicated than that, you're right. But I object to the "a bunch of idiot Germans" statement, for a variety of reasons.

[Conradus]

If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.

The Treaty of Versailles was indeed rather harsh for Germany and her allies, yet as much was to be expected then. The Franco-Prussian war of 1871 wasn't ended nicely either.

But claiming that 'stupid -little- germans' had no (large) part in WWII is utter nonsense.

[KarlXII]

If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.

If it weren't for the Franco-Prussian War, the first would not have happened.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The Treaty of Versailles was indeed rather harsh for Germany and her allies, yet as much was to be expected then.

Many leaders knew exactly what would come from a treaty of that nature. Unfortunately, common sense did not prevail. I'm sure any sane person can agree that it was unjust and harsh.

This is not a peace. It is an armistice for 20 years.

You may strip Germany of her colonies,
reduce her armaments to a mere police force,
and her navy to that of a fifth-rate power;
all the same, in the end if she feels she has been unjustly treated
in the peace of 1919 she will find means of exacting
retribution from her conquerors.

Next statement...

But claiming that 'stupid -little- germans' had no (large) part in WWII is utter nonsense.

Do you see anyone claiming that in this thread? I don't.

If it weren't for the Franco-Prussian War, the first would not have happened.

In a large part because the German nation may well have not existed in it's present form. If the world hadn't been created, there never would have been a war.

[Conradus]

Many leaders knew exactly what would come from a treaty of that nature. Unfortunately, common sense did not prevail. I'm sure any sane person can agree that it was unjust and harsh.

It was harsh, sure, unjust, perhaps. The Prussians/Germans must've realised that 1871 would lead to another war and their interference with France's colonies the next centuries didn't help either. The entente on the other hand also wasn't a sign of peacefull intentions though. But it didn't have to lead to a second war if the Allies had been prepared (and willing) to follow the Treaty. That means stopping Germany from reentering the Ruhr, from rearming their army, from remilitarizing the Rhine...At every single one of those stages a second world war would've been prevented by some gunshaking.

Next statement...



Do you see anyone claiming that in this thread? I don't.

Well you did deny the stupid bunch of germans statement.

[PanzerJaeger]

'Boohoo...If only my mum would've bought me that XBox when I was eight and if only my teachers would've laid off on me when I was twelve and if only she wouldn't have dumped me then I would never have become a gas station robbing piece of trash your honour...boohoo...cry...whine....'

Of course it was a bitter, vengeful, and certainly immature France that pushed for the harshest elements of the treaty.

Most damaging of all may not have been the reparations, but the demands to put the Kaiser on trial. Ensuring an end to the monarchy left a power vacuum that allowed all sorts of extreme elements to thrive.

It is important not to forget the rise of communism and the support it received from the USSR when discussing the run up to the Second World War. The real and perceived threat of a communist takeover was tangible and greatly bolstered Nazi influence. People were certainly bitter over Versailles, but they were terrified of the Reds. Note that they were dealt with immediately, before the Jews, Gypsies and everyone else…

[CrossLOPER]

Of course it was a bitter, vengeful, and certainly immature France that pushed for the harshest elements of the treaty.

I'm pretty sure a large part of their eastern territory was totally razed and many people were lost. People were still very afraid of the Germans. I'm not saying this justifies overly harsh treatment.

[KarlXII]

Of course it was a bitter, vengeful, and certainly immature France that pushed for the harshest elements of the treaty.

Most damaging of all may not have been the reparations, but the demands to put the Kaiser on trial. Ensuring an end to the monarchy left a power vacuum that allowed all sorts of extreme elements to thrive.

It is important not to forget the rise of communism and the support it received from the USSR when discussing the run up to the Second World War. The real and perceived threat of a communist takeover was tangible and greatly bolstered Nazi influence. People were certainly bitter over Versailles, but they were terrified of the Reds. Note that they were dealt with immediately, before the Jews, Gypsies and everyone else…

The USSR hardly could have affected Communism in other nations. They finished a terrible civil war, fought Japan and Poland, and their officers were being purged. The "Great Red Terror" was simply nothing more than fear exploited.

The Kaiser was the ultimate head of state of Germany. What happens in terms of internal and foreign affairs are normally brought to him. Therefore, he would know of the violation of Belgian neutrality, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium.

There was no "power vacuum". The Kaiser had abdicated before the official peace was signed, Prince Max resigned soon later. Friedrich Ebert took control as the first president.

And for the French, can you blame them? Germany chose to support Austria and chose to violate Belgian neutrality and declare war on the Allies, Germany was, in a way, responsible for the French and English deaths on the Western Front.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Germany is partitioned.

Yes, it is. Why was it partitioned? Because of the proclivity of German warmongers to see daggers stabbed in the back, to blame others, to blame international Jewry for all the misery that German warmongery has brought upon Germany. That's why Dresden was firebombed. That's why the Germans were expelled from the East. That's why the lands were never returned. If you seek any blame for the loss of the East, blame it on the nazis and their goosestepping fanboys. They are the betrayers of Germany, the ones responsible for everything Germany had to endure.

Gah! Goethe and Schiller. Bach and Beethoven. Cologne Cathedral. And then some see in goosestepping imbeciles murdering Jewish peasants in the Ukraine the pinnacle of two millenia of German civilisation.

Why do you hate Germany?

[PanzerJaeger]

The USSR hardly could have affected Communism in other nations. They finished a terrible civil war, fought Japan and Poland, and their officers were being purged. The "Great Red Terror" was simply nothing more than fear exploited.

This is entirely incorrect. After the Civil War, Lenin almost immediately attempted to spread the revolution into Europe through direct warfare. After that disaster, the USSR had a major part in founding, funding, guiding and even directly controlling the various communist movements throughout Europe and Asia to varying degrees and by the 30's they were little more than agents of Soviet policy. This direct Soviet influence can be easily recognized in the outright military support given to the Spanish communists.

As for the threat of communist takeover, it was very real - especially in Germany. You are aware of the armed communist groups and the street battles, correct? After the communist-nationalist alliance fell apart in a particularly bloody manner in China, Stalin shifted these groups, essentially Soviet proxies, to a far more militant posture.

The Kaiser was the ultimate head of state of Germany. What happens in terms of internal and foreign affairs are normally brought to him. Therefore, he would know of the violation of Belgian neutrality, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium.

There was no "power vacuum". The Kaiser had abdicated before the official peace was signed, Prince Max resigned soon later. Friedrich Ebert took control as the first president.

The original plan was to shift to a constitutional monarchy. This would have given Germany a clear head of state with an established right of governance among the people to keep the nation in concert through the rough transition to democracy. Hindenburg just couldn't pull that off, and Weimar can be described as nothing less than a power vacuum, in which the nation was torn apart by both the radical Left and Right.

And for the French, can you blame them? Germany chose to support Austria and chose to violate Belgian neutrality and declare war on the Allies, Germany was, in a way, responsible for the French and English deaths on the Western Front.

Yes, France can be blamed for activating its alliances just as Germany can. The Austrian and Russian power struggle in the Balkans had very little to do with either nation.

It should also be noted that Wilhelm, while a great proponent of German power, was not seeking a war. He made great efforts to de-escalate the situation just prior to the outbreak of hostilities. Unfortunately, the man was rather inept and didn't realize how little influence his personal relationships with other monarchs held in the power politics of the day that drove the powers to war.

[Geoffrey S]

The problems then, as now, lay with Europe. We're all in it together, folks.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yes, it is. Why was it partitioned? Because of the proclivity of German warmongers to see daggers stabbed in the back, to blame others, to blame international Jewry for all the misery that German warmongery has brought upon Germany.

Unfortunately, the allies, especially the French, bolstered this particular Nazi proclivity and gave it creedence in the eyes of most Germans of the time. Isn't that what's currently being discussed in this wandering thread?

[LittleGrizzly]

This direct Soviet influence can be easily recognized in the outright military support given to the Spanish communists.

Weren't they just supporting the republic against the facists, to be honest i think its shocking western countrys didn't help out spain but let them get taken over by franco...

Lenin almost immediately attempted to spread the revolution into Europe through direct warfare. After that disaster, the USSR had a major part in founding, funding, guiding and even directly controlling the various communist movements throughout Europe and Asia to varying degrees and by the 30's they were little more than agents of Soviet policy.

I don't think the soviet union had much if any at all control over its partys abroad, as shown by china after getting power they are not going to follow the soviet union blindly they are going to follow thier own policys, communism was as much an excuse for germany to go all facist as it would have been for britian or france to turn facist just because there was the threat of germany.

If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.

Whilst that doesn't shift much blame off the germans i do think its true, the harsh conditions we imposed and forced the first goverment to agree too put them off a terrible start, though i think it could have still worked until the wall street crash (which you could also say if it weren't for it wouldn't have happened) but after that germany was set down a dark road, and of all the extreme elements that could have taken over Hitler did, after that the rest is history

The blame on germany lies in given into those extreme elements after the treaty of versailles, the blame for the treaty of versailles lies mainly on france and partially on UK, the blame for creation the situation where germany had to agree to surrender conditions goes back to the starting conditions for world war 1.

You can sympathise with the situations which caused the bad actions all the way through though, germany where put in a situation which caused people to reach out to extreme elements, France had suffered badly from ww1 and powers attacked that badly always tend to lash out, i think almost any country would have been as vengeful as france after ww1, and well the starting conditions for ww1 blame can be spread across all the great powers in europe fairly equally.

Stupid is perhaps a harsh word to describe a nation of people but considering what they where very responsible for (ww2) or what they just let happen in thier name, i think stupidity may perhaps be an apt description.

[PanzerJaeger]

Weren't they just supporting the republic against the facists, to be honest i think its shocking western countrys didn't help out spain but let them get taken over by franco...

Nope, nothing noble about it. They were supporting the communists in Spain - who took their orders directly from the Soviet Politburo - in a bid to help their ideology come out on top, just like the Nazis.

I don't think the soviet union had much if any at all control over its partys abroad, as shown by china after getting power they are not going to follow the soviet union blindly they are going to follow thier own policys, communism was as much an excuse for germany to go all facist as it would have been for britian or france to turn facist just because there was the threat of germany.

Pre-WW2, history just doesn't back this up. The USSR had a tight leash on most communist movements during the 1920s and 1930s.

[LittleGrizzly]

Pre-WW2, history just doesn't back this up. The USSR had a tight leash on most communist movements during the 1920s and 1930s.

Im sure they helped fund them and communicated with them but i doubt they had much more control than america did with latin american dictators they helped, less even i imagine

Nope, nothing noble about it. They were supporting the communists in Spain - who took their orders directly from the Soviet Politburo - in a bid to help their ideology come out on top, just like the Nazis.

Well considering the communists won an election and the facists rebelled i can hardly see that as compelling evidence of germans needing to be worried about a communist threat, if anything this should have made them wary of facism, there is nothing noble about the su funding the communists before the civil war but once the facists started a civil war the su's funding was the right thing to do whether they were trying to spread thier ideaology or not, and im sure the spanish communists hopped into bed with the su to help them get power but they were not about to hand it over to the su afterwards, just like franco didn't follow hitler because of his support during the civil war...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The Prussians/Germans must've realised that 1871 would lead to another war

Possibly, though at that time war wasn't uncommon in Europe at all - nobody thought that there was going to be a war as big as the First World War. Many actions at that time could have led to war - Germany just tried to get the best deal. Even the terms Germany put on France weren't as crippling as the ones we got at the Treaty of Versailles, even though we took Paris.

But it didn't have to lead to a second war if the Allies had been prepared (and willing) to follow the Treaty. That means stopping Germany from reentering the Ruhr, from rearming their army, from remilitarizing the Rhine...At every single one of those stages a second world war would've been prevented by some gunshaking.

I agree with you to a certain extent, and I won't elaborate on that, even though I want to.

Well you did deny the stupid bunch of germans statement.

Yes, I did. Partially because his wording is insulting, partially because they weren't all Germans, and partially because I feel Germany had what I see as a casus belli right up until the invasion of Poland.

Sure, Germany started the war, but the Allies didn't help with the whole situation.

Yes, it is. Why was it partitioned? Because of the proclivity of German warmongers to see daggers stabbed in the back, to blame others, to blame international Jewry for all the misery that German warmongery has brought upon Germany.

All Germans are warmongers now? The German race is at fault for warmongering? Alright then, all the French people were at fault for Versailles, if you want to use that logic, and are therefore either all stupid, all arrogant, all shortsighted, or any combination of the above. That's fine, I can live with that.

No, Germany is partitioned because we lost a war and the Nazis were human scum. There's no other reason. It didn't matter who started the war, it mattered who ended it.

That's why Dresden was firebombed. That's why the Germans were expelled from the East. That's why the lands were never returned. If you seek any blame for the loss of the East, blame it on the nazis and their goosestepping fanboys. They are the betrayers of Germany, the ones responsible for everything Germany had to endure.

Certainly the Nazi Party was at fault for the loss of the war and, at least in part, for the destruction of Germany. Are you trying to make a point, or just repeating what everyone already knows?

Now, back to the other point. You talk about the firebombing of Dresden. You can't blame the Germans for that, no matter how hard you try. The Allied leaders had a choice on whether to commit atrocities against Germany, and they chose to.

Secondly, the expelling of Germans from the east. I love your logic. Tell me, who is talking to me? A Frenchman who is angry because of the loss of one war and the near losses of two others, or a man with some sense? If you want to appeal to emotion, how many of your ancestors were tortured in Lubyanka? How many of your ancestors were shipped to Gulags? How many of your ancestors perished because of famine or fire? How many of your ancestors were conscripted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the hell that was the Russian steppes? Don't talk to me about death.

Gah! Goethe and Schiller. Bach and Beethoven. Cologne Cathedral. And then some see in goosestepping imbeciles murdering Jewish peasants in the Ukraine the pinnacle of two millenia of German civilisation.

The "pinnacle" of German civilization? More like absolute bottom, but I love your sarcasm. Judging Germany by the Holocaust is like judging the French by Robespierre's Terror.

[KarlXII]

Nope, nothing noble about it. They were supporting the communists in Spain - who took their orders directly from the Soviet Politburo - in a bid to help their ideology come out on top, just like the Nazis.





Pre-WW2, history just doesn't back this up. The USSR had a tight leash on most communist movements during the 1920s and 1930s.

Would you like to provide evidence that the USSR was supporting Republican Spain based off their communist ideology? I always thought they were doing it to stop the spread of facism. Which makes me think, facist countries have tried to spread fasicm more then the USSR was trying to spread communism.

There were very few pre WW2 communist countries. Mongolia was one. However, Communist China was in no way a Soviet lapdog.

[LittleGrizzly]

I always thought they were doing it to stop the spread of facism. Which makes me think, facist countries have tried to spread fasicm more then the USSR was trying to spread communism.

exactly, Hitler provided actual military support to the facists what did the communists do provide material support ?

Now, back to the other point. You talk about the firebombing of Dresden. You can't blame the Germans for that, no matter how hard you try. The Allied leaders had a choice on whether to commit atrocities against Germany, and they chose to.

I think you can blame the germans for the firebombing of dresden as much you can blame the allies for ww2, it was unjust and undeserved but through thier own injustice they triggered the actions, in both cases....