Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Why not Quebec or Bavaria? Aren't they entitled to independance as much as the Alsatians or the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic?

I'd only support Alsatian independance because it means Germany can annex it more easily.

I have different reasoning on Quebec and Bavaria. I'm a quarter Bavarian, and I feel Bavaria has gained much from being a part of Germany, Germany gains much from Bavaria, and Bavarian culture is in no way threatened. I feel the same way about Quebec, even though I'm not Quebecois.

[KarlXII]

I'd only support Alsatian independance because it means Germany can annex it more easily.

I have different reasoning on Quebec and Bavaria. I'm a quarter Bavarian, and I feel Bavaria has gained much from being a part of Germany, Germany gains much from Bavaria, and Bavarian culture is in no way threatened. I feel the same way about Quebec, even though I'm not Quebecois.

Abkhazia ethnically cleansed Georgians during their war, so much for being repressed. I do not view the Georgia conflicts as Georgia "suppressing" the "nations", I view it as a legitimate country fighting an internal rebellion, I do not support the independance movements.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Abkhazia ethnically cleansed Georgians during their war, so much for being repressed. I do not view the Georgia conflicts as Georgia "suppressing" the "nations", I view it as a legitimate country fighting an internal rebellion, I do not support the independance movements.

In South Ossetia, Georgia is suppressing them. In Abkhazia, the situation is a little different.

[KarlXII]

In South Ossetia, Georgia is suppressing them. In Abkhazia, the situation is a little different.

Then why support Abkhazian independance on the basis of "suppression"?

I still view the South Ossetian conflict as an internal rebellion that Georgia should be able to respond to militarily. The fact that Russia is getting involved will not help the situation.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Then why support Abkhazian independance on the basis of "suppression"?

I don't. I support them because they're helping Ossetia, and I disapprove of Georgia's actions towards the Ossetians.

The fact that Russia is getting involved will not help the situation.

Russia had an agreement with Georgia in the region. Georgia broke it. Russia has a casus belli.

[KarlXII]

Russia had an agreement with Georgia in the region. Georgia broke it. Russia has a casus belli.

So Russia is in the right?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So Russia is in the right?

South Ossetia is in the right, in my opinion. If Russia fights on the South Ossetian side...

[Kralizec]

Russia is the self-described mediator in this conflict, but you'd have to be stupid not to recognise that they're a party in this conflict. I don't know if it really was intended as a surprise attack or if Georgia was provoked, but either way Russia is operating on a pretext that's unconvincing to anyone who's being honest with himself.

As to the south Ossetians, I'm undecided. That there's armed resistance against the Georgians doesn't necessarily mean that the majority of people truly want to be part of Russia, too. Regardless I think that Georgia should just take its losses and see to it that they're admitted into NATO as fast as possible.

[Adrian II]

Now that we have all established what side we are on, does anyone have an idea about a solution? I guess since Russia will never accept international arbitration or even mediation, and Georgia will accept nothing else but that, the Georgians will have to get a really bloody nose before they get wise. That may take another week of bombing and skirmishes, after which someone in the White House will have to make that phone call to Moscow and turn on some screws, telling the Russians they can have Ossetia but should stay out of Georgia proper.

Does Dubya know the country code for Russia?

[KarlXII]

South Ossetia is in the right, in my opinion. If Russia fights on the South Ossetian side...

Glad to know who you're siding with. Rebels and belligerents.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm concerned that the western world is just standing by while this goes on. I'm not sure allowing Russia to storm into South Ossetia is an ideal compromise, since they'll still have a monopoly thanks to the loss of this new pipeline.

Also I do not think that the average South Ossetian is particularly pro-Russia/Georgia, it seems Russia bought the support of clan leaders and fuelled their in-fighting in the process, within Georgian territory.

A better compromise would be for South Ossetia to remain Georgian territory, either devolving it some power, or allowing Russian influence to remain in some form. If the South Ossetians could be satisfied by an agreement with Georgia, this would swipe the high ground from under Russia's feet.

[Mailman653]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=104
Swedish statement on conflict.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=105
Joint statement by Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania on conflict.

[Adrian II]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=104
Swedish statement on conflict.

Ok, so the Godwin award goes to Stockholm.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Glad to know who you're siding with. Rebels and belligerents.

Georgia is, if not the, at least a main belligerent in the current War in Ossetia (2008).

[KarlXII]

Georgia is, if not the, at least a main belligerent in the current War in Ossetia (2008).

You mean Russia went into the country, bombed areas, inserted forces, and engaged Georgian forces, yet the Georgian nation is at fault? They're the belligerents?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You mean Russia went into the country, bombed areas, inserted forces, and engaged Georgian forces, yet the Georgian nation is at fault? They're the belligerents?

Well, yes. Did you miss the part where Georgia attacked South Ossetia after they agreed to a ceasefire, where Russian peacekeeping forces (who were also there in agreement with the Georgians) were? Russia responded with justified force to a military operation directed against Russia's interests in the region. Georgia broke the ceasefire and the peacekeeping agreement (which was between South Ossetia, Georgia, and Russia), not Russia. Even Georgia acknowledges that Russian forces moved in after Georgian forces attacked.

[KarlXII]

Well, yes. Did you miss the part where Georgia attacked South Ossetia after they agreed to a ceasefire, where Russian peacekeeping forces (who were also there in agreement with the Georgians) were? Russia responded with justified force to a military operation directed against Russia's interests in the region. Georgia broke the ceasefire and the peacekeeping agreement (which was between South Ossetia, Georgia, and Russia), not Russia. Even Georgia acknowledges that Russian forces moved in after Georgian forces attacked.

So Russia now has all right to get involved in an internal affair?

[CrossLOPER]

I'm concerned that the western world is just standing by while this goes on. I'm not sure allowing Russia to storm into South Ossetia is an ideal compromise, since they'll still have a monopoly thanks to the loss of this new pipeline.

The Russians didn't "storm" into Ossetia. By agreement, it is Russia's responsibility to protect South Ossetia. The Georgian military attempted to wipe it off the face of the Earth. Russia responded by reinforcing South Ossetia... and by trying to wipe the Georgian military installations off the face of the Earth.

A better compromise would be for South Ossetia to remain Georgian territory, either devolving it some power, or allowing Russian influence to remain in some form. If the South Ossetians could be satisfied by an agreement with Georgia, this would swipe the high ground from under Russia's feet.

There was an agreement to allow the Russian Federation to absorb the regions in question. It was going along quite well until the Rose Revolution, where a much saner and reasonable president was ousted and replaced with a staunch nationalist.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So Russia now has all right to get involved in an internal affair?

[cough] Breakup of Yugoslavia [/cough]

Anyhow, yes, Russia has the right to get involved when 70% of the affected are Russian citizens, the target is a breakaway republic that potentially wants to become a part of Russia, and the Georgians violated an agreement they had with the said breakaway republic and Russia.

EDIT: And this post is a good answer to that question:

The Russians didn't "storm" into Ossetia. By agreement, it is Russia's responsibility to protect South Ossetia. The Georgian military attempted to wipe it off the face of the Earth. Russia responded by reinforcing South Ossetia... and by trying to wipe the Georgian military installations off the face of the Earth.

[Mailman653]

To my understanding S.O has no international recognition as a sovereign and independent country so really it's still part of Georgia. And second, perhaps 70% of population has Russian passports, but that does not give it right to enter another nations territory even if its disputed.

Thats like Mexico entering Texas and California because they feel they must defend their citizens living in the US from US aggression in which ever form they feel is violating their citizens rights.

Didn't Hitler use the same kind of logic not too long ago in order to step foot into other countries with the idea of protecting its German citizens (even if it was just a minority) living in that country from whatever aggression they perceived to be going on?

My two cents.

[KarlXII]

[cough] Breakup of Yugoslavia [/cough]

Anyhow, yes, Russia has the right to get involved when 70% of the affected are Russian citizens, the target is a breakaway republic that potentially wants to become a part of Russia, and the Georgians violated an agreement they had with the said breakaway republic and Russia.

EDIT: And this post is a good answer to that question:

As said by Mailman

And second, perhaps 70% of population has Russian passports, but that does not give it right to enter another nations territory even if its disputed.

Potentially, I could be President, but I am not. South Ossetia has no international recognition, and is still a part of Georgia, therefore, the conflict is internal with Russian intervention.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Potentially, I could be President, but I am not. South Ossetia has no international recognition, and is still a part of Georgia, therefore, the conflict is internal with Russian intervention.

South Ossetia does not consider itself part of Georgia, and Georgia and Russia have de facto recognized at least some South Ossetian authority by signing agreements with the South Ossetian government. If Russia's citizens are threatened, Russia intervenes. I believe it is constitutionally obligated to do so.

[KarlXII]

South Ossetia does not consider itself part of Georgia, and Georgia and Russia have de facto recognized at least some South Ossetian authority by signing agreements with the South Ossetian government. If Russia's citizens are threatened, Russia intervenes. I believe it is constitutionally obligated to do so.

You mean the provincial administration that still holds no international recognition and probably has less power than a US State? So instead of evacuating the Russian citizens, they decide to bomb Georgia?

[Marshal Murat]

If the Ossetians wish to have a nation so bad, I wouldn't mind them joining with Northern Ossetia and forming an independent republic, free and unfettered by Russian or Georgian allegiance.

It was going along quite well until the Rose Revolution, where a much saner and reasonable president was ousted and replaced with a staunch nationalist.

Whose fault is that? The Georgians have the right to elect whichever president they feel best represents their interests. Clearly the 'sane and reasonable' president wasn't acting in the best interests of the nation, or he would still be in office. If Georgia doesn't wish for the regions in question to secede, then I believe they have the full right to enforce their authority in aforementioned province. Considering the unusual nature of the province, I would hope that talks and discussions could create a situation where the Ossetians could withdraw, or accept a 'gray-area' state of affairs.

I think that were the Ossetians really wishing for a safe, secure nation for themselves, they would work hard in the national legislative group. Instead they have created a situation that has resulted in Georgia moving against them, to ostensibly preserve their nation from Russian annexation. While the effort on the Russian part is no doubt to preserve a reasonable situation in the region, it smacks more of an attempt to put Georgia in it's place, to discourage them from becoming an upstart Western Republic.

To solve the situation, I would hope that Georgia and Russia can come to an agreement where the Ossetians can create their own national state, move the Ossetians out of their homes (like that'll happen ), or where Ossetians understand their own unique place in the Georgian nation, and accept the boundaries as they are and work into the Georgian nation and give up this 'homeland' notion. However, convinced that it's their own 'special ethnic location' and inspired (suddenly?) to join the Russian nation, just to rejoin their own 'compatriots' without asking for a separate nation for themselves?
Something is fishy.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You mean the provincial administration that still holds no international recognition and probably has less power than a US State? So instead of evacuating the Russian citizens, they decide to bomb Georgia?

As far as I know, US states have the right to secede. I'm not sure if Georgian autonomous republics (which is what Abkhazia and South Ossetia are, if you choose to ignore that they are de facto independant states) have the right to do so, but since the people in the regions want to secede, I'm not sure what right Georgia has to stop them.

[Marshal Murat]

US States have the ability to secede, but it was a little messy last time they tried.

[KarlXII]

As far as I know, US states have the right to secede. I'm not sure if Georgian autonomous republics (which is what Abkhazia and South Ossetia are, if you choose to ignore that they are de facto independant states) have the right to do so, but since the people in the regions want to secede, I'm not sure what right Georgia has to stop them.

Actually, state secession is unconstitutional in the US.

You also seem to ignore that these de facto republics are 1. Not actual nations and 2. Have recieved no international recognition as anything other than part of Georgia.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You also seem to ignore that these de facto republics are 1. Not actual nations and 2. Have recieved no international recognition as anything other than part of Georgia.

I also fail to see why this matters.

[KarlXII]

I also fail to see why this matters.

Then they are not real republics or nations, therefore, Georgia has all right to deal with internal affairs without having the Moscow Bear involved.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Then they are not real republics or nations, therefore, Georgia has all right to deal with internal affairs without having the Moscow Bear involved.

The problem, however, is that it's not really an internal affair, and it hasn't been for a long time.