Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

[KarlXII]

The problem, however, is that it's not really an internal affair, and it hasn't been for a long time.

And Russia's involvement sure as hell isn't helping.

[Caius]

He isn't saying Russia is communist. "Putin's Soviet Union" wouldn't be communist.

If its Soviet it aint capitalist, y'know.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

And Russia's involvement sure as hell isn't helping.

It's helping the South Ossetians.

[Incongruous]

South Ossetia is in the right, in my opinion. If Russia fights on the South Ossetian side...

Digging yourself a hole?
Or do you actually perceive the Russians and that commie-git as the "good"?

Russia has been nothing but a monster to Europe.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Digging yourself a hole?

I'm sticking to my position unless some monstrous Russian atrocities come to light.

Or do you actually perceive the Russians and that commie-git as the "good"?

I certainly don't perceive the Georgian nationalist potential electoral fraudster as "good" either. I said Russia, at least so far, appears to have the right, not the good.

Russia has been nothing but a monster to Europe.

I don't need anyone to remind me of that, thank you very much.

[Incongruous]

Right and good, as a supporter of to the strongest, where does that leave the two? Roughly the same place...

You don't need anyone to remind you?
Had family members tortured by them have you? How can you ever perceive the Russians as in the right, when all their scheming is to the ends of domination of former Soviet States? When perhaps, your own family has been on the receiving end of so called Russian interventions?

[CrossLOPER]

Russia does not need former Soviet states. It needs former Soviet states to behave like normal nations that don't blame every single problem they have on Russia.

Russia's primary goal is to gain security in order to prosper. Being surrounded by nationalist...."gits"... who choose to win favor by behaving like barbarians does not bring security.

[Marshal Murat]

behave like normal nations that don't blame every single problem they have on Russia.

The Russians reap what they sow.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Had family members tortured by them have you?

Grandmother tortured in Lubyanka. Grandfather imprisoned. Probably around six or more dead. My aunt's father shot in front of her eyes. No, I don't need anyone to remind me.

Oh, and about half of these deaths were ordered by a Georgian, so you don't need to remind me of that either.

How can you ever perceive the Russians as in the right, when all their scheming is to the ends of domination of former Soviet States?

Because I'm judging everything case by case.

When perhaps, your own family has been on the receiving end of so called Russian interventions?

See, my family has always been a place where we haven't wanted a Russian intervention. On the other hand, South Ossetia wants a Russian intervention. That's the difference.

[KarlXII]

It's helping the South Ossetians.

And weakening a sovereign nation's hold over it's own country....

Russia occupied Georgian territory and has attacked numerous areas outside Ossetia and you are still in belief that the Russians are right in their attack.

[Husar]

So what do we have here?
A bunch of breakaway nutters or were they subject to ethnical cleansing from Georgian authorities?
A bunch of peace treaty breakers or are they the victims of a big evil conspiracy?
A bunch of imperialist invaders or were they just coming to help those who asked for it?

I cannot seriously answer any of these questions and it seems most people answer them according to which country they always hated the most or they believe to be full of evil imperialists so that doesn't help me either (coming from that evil, untrustworthy nazi country I refuse to look at other countries in the same way).

Basically that leads me to believe they can just kill eachother over there and solve their own damn complicated issues, maybe if they get a really bad bloodbath they will get tired of behaving like stupids and join the UN for some healthy talk. And if not, they can just continue banging one another's heads in but I will do my best to keep my own head out of it.

As long as it takes a big ego to be successful in this world, one shouldn't be surprised that a lot of people get shafted because someone doesn't want to back down.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

And weakening a sovereign nation's hold over it's own country....

Russia occupied Georgian territory and has attacked numerous areas outside Ossetia and you are still in belief that the Russians are right in their attack.

Sure. Georgia broke a ceasefire, and now they're getting a hard lesson in what happens when you mess with areas which have stated Russian protection. The Georgians were not being sensible, and the Russians responded in force. Big surprise.

[KarlXII]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LA423150.htm

Look at the Georgian aggression! How dare a country actually attempt to govern rebellious areas? Russia is obviously acting noble, freeing oppressed peoples

[Marshal Murat]

you are still in belief that the Russians are right in their attack.

I understand EMFM position, since he clearly stands in the view that South Ossetia has the full right to withdraw from Georgia, and join Russia. Russia is only protecting a future investment, and it's people, from Georgian aggression. I would think that Russian forces are justified, in the sense that they are protecting 'citizens'. The attacks outside of South Ossetia are to only prevent Georgia from bringing more forces to bear, illegally.

[KarlXII]

Sure. Georgia broke a ceasefire, and now they're getting a hard lesson in what happens when you mess with areas which have stated Russian protection. The Georgians were not being sensible, and the Russians responded in force. Big surprise.

Yes, yes, Georgia has no right to it's own country, Russia is responding nobely,

[KarlXII]

I understand EMFM position, since he clearly stands in the view that South Ossetia has the full right to withdraw from Georgia, and join Russia. Russia is only protecting a future investment, and it's people, from Georgian aggression. I would think that Russian forces are justified, in the sense that they are protecting 'citizens'. The attacks outside of South Ossetia are to only prevent Georgia from bringing more forces to bear, illegally.

So Georgia cannot defend it's own territory?

There is a fine line between enforing a cease-fire, and full blown occupation. This is the latter.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Look at the Georgian aggression! How dare a country actually attempt to govern rebellious areas? Russia is obviously acting noble, freeing oppressed peoples

Russia is massing troops? Big surprise, considering Georgians have been attacking Ossetians and Russian peacekeepers for at least a day now.

Yes, yes, Georgia has no right to it's own country, Russia is responding nobely,

The region in question is not under Georgian control, but under Ossetian control. The Ossetian people are largely Russian citizens and for the most part want to join Russia. Russia has every right both to protect it's citizens and to honour previous agreements in the region - something Georgia has not done.

There is a fine line between enforing a cease-fire, and full blown occupation. This is the latter.

Russia is driving Georgian forces out of Ossetia, and the first attack by Georgia was an act of war.

[KarlXII]

Russia is massing troops? Big surprise, considering Georgians have been attacking Ossetians and Russian peacekeepers for at least a day now.



The region in question is not under Georgian control, but under Ossetian control. The Ossetian people are largely Russian citizens and for the most part want to join Russia. Russia has every right both to protect it's citizens and to honour previous agreements in the region - something Georgia has not done.

You protect your citizens by having them evacuated, getting them out of the danger. You do not bomb the country, nor amass "peacekeepers" on such a scale.

I'm not surprised Russia is amassing troops, in fact, it'll help in the suppresing of the "Evil Georgian State" and the liberation of others

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You protect your citizens by having them evacuated, getting them out of the danger.

Kind of tough when it's 70% of the population, and that's the main part of the population being targeted in an area that isn't, de facto, part of Georgia.

[QUOTE]You do not bomb the country

No, you bomb a country when that country breaks a peacekeeping deal to attack your forces and the government you are protecting.

nor amass "peacekeepers" on such a scale.

They are peacekeepers - and recognized by the Georgians as such - in the agreement the Georgians just broke.

[KarlXII]

I can imagine it now:


(Scene opens on playground, large tough kid is talking to smaller kid)

Russia (Large kid): I'm gonna go pummel that Georgia, here's 10 bucks, tell the teacher I'm doing it for you.
Ossetia: You're the best!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

An update, and this is the Georgian Interior Minister:

He told the BBC that Russian troops had not entered Georgia from South Ossetia, but added that fighting was continuing.

[KarlXII]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe.../georgia.reax/

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aPLDNxutvt7M

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Tcha, stick with the BBC, it's being much more neutral.

At any rate, Georgia is also massing forces to support what it currently has in South Ossetia. Can't blame them for that any more than you can blame the Russians. It's what you do in war, you know.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Russia is trying to deter NATO peace keepers with those ships. We should have already deployed them to Georgia through the Black Sea. Now when we inevitably deploy them we will have to go over mountain ranges or risk the impending Russian Embargo.

Georgia has requested NATO peacekeepers. We should give them what they ask for and build up in non-breakaway Georgia for the time being. This may deter any further Russian incursions into Georgia.

If Abkhazia and South Ossetia eventually do break off from Georgia and Russia annexes them - problem solved for Georgian NATO membership. This may actually speed up the process in Ukraine and Georgia for NATO membership as that would help guarantee against further territorial breaches.

We should probably do something. We won't be able to just ignore Georgia after this and I'm sure that our alliance will be weaker having done nothing.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Tcha, stick with the BBC, it's being much more neutral.

Also, BBC hasn't reported the blockade from what I've seen. You aren't suggesting that we pay attention to only one News source, are you? I suggest that we all look for as many sources as possible. "Neutrality" doesn't really help us understand situation - only the attempt of the news sources not to inflame sensibilities.

Also, if 30,000 Ossetians have fled into North Ossetia, wouldn't that mean that the Ossetian population is equal to the Georgian population in South Ossetia for the time being? Interesting.

[Marshal Murat]

Telegraph "Russian Bear"

The Pipeline War: Russian bear goes for West's jugular

[Mailman653]

Well, since we are talking about the BBC....

Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia
War over then right?

And here are another two sources while we are talking about that as well....

Al Jazeera English
Russia 'bombs Georgian capital'
Xinhua News Agency
Medvedev: withdrawal of Georgian troops only way to settle South Ossetia crisis

[Rhyfelwyr]

Maybe Georgia would not have been forced to retaliate against the South Ossetians if Russia had not supplied their clan leaders with weapons to continue with their feuds.

[JR-]

two stupid decisions led to this war:
1) the recognition of kosovo - forces Georgia into desperate measures to defend its territorial integrity, and gives Russia a pretext to support rebel regions and respond in the event of violence
2) no NATO for Georgia - told Russia that NATO didn't have the balls to defend Georgia, and Georgia that NATO wasn't seriously interested in supporting it in Georgia's strategic problems.

and low and behold Russia uses its opportunity to take a few pot-shots at the Baku-Tblisi pipeline..........

[Adrian II]

two stupid decisions led to this war:
1) the recognition of kosovo - forces Georgia into desperate measures to defend its territorial integrity, and gives Russia a pretext to support rebel regions and respond in the event of violence
2) no NATO for Georgia - told Russia that NATO didn't have the balls to defend Georgia, and Georgia that NATO wasn't seriously interested in supporting it in Georgia's strategic problems.

and low and behold Russia uses its opportunity to take a few pot-shots at the Baku-Tblisi pipeline..........

Yes, it seems that the western recognition of Kosovo really clinched this one. Saakashvili then overplayed his hand, but the root cause is that just like each country has its own terrorists of choice, each country can also have its own separatists of choice.

Mind you, the Russians appear to have a better case about Georgian 'genocide' in South Ossetia than Nato had about 'genocide' in Kosovo. Both cases are severely deficient, of course, but against the background of present-day inflated discourse on 'genocide' the Russian claim has some merit.