U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

[Koga No Goshi]

Way to avoid addressing the fact that Wasilla was never mentioned in any of the hearings Croft was in.

I think he's just saying what he is now to make political hay out of it.

CR

Could be. But even if it's a rumor it is certainly a far more on topic one than "Obama is a Muslim"... Palin doesn't deny opposing reproductive choice.

[Big_John]

From the DRUDGE:

saw this too, is this just rehash of the taheri nypost article from sept 15 that went nowhere? or is there something new for october?

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09152008...wal_129150.htm

[Redleg]

As I was driving down the road this morning and returning this afternoon. It seems the talk radio has got a new wind on the Birth Certificate issue if the author of Obamanation's return from a trip to Kenya. Then there is this lawyer from Penn. who has a court case against Obama demanding he produce a Birth Certificate. And it seems there is a claim by some of these guys that CNN proved Obama attempted to deceive the public about his connection to Mr. Ayers. Its not surprising that doing a little research tonight, that I can not (LOL double negative in the sentence)find any of the so called reference material expect for the lawyer's website.

http://obamacrimes.com/


So who thinks it's just the pundits attempting to bring about the October Surprise? I sort of lean in that direction because of the timing of it all.

[OverKnight]

Snopes has an article on this:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp

Like Ayers, this issue seems to have been out there for a long time. It seems that with time running out, a lot of it is being rehashed to try to blunt Obama's rise in the polls.

While we're at it, factcheck on rape kits:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...ctims_pay.html

[Lemur]

While we're at it, factcheck on rape kits:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...ctims_pay.html

Sounds pretty definitive to me.

Meanwhile, I get the impression that McCain is riding a tiger when it comes to inciting the crazies. Does the Name Yitzhak Rabin ring a bell? I'm not the only one getting creeped out by the foam-at-the-mouth crowd ...

I'm beginning to worry about the level of craziness on the Republican side, the over-the-top, stampede-the-crowd statements by everyone from McCain on down, the vehemence of the crowds that McCain and Palin are drawing with people shouting "Kill him" and "He's a terrorist" and "Off with his head."

Watch the tape of the guy screaming, "He's a terrorist!" McCain seems to shudder at that, he rolls his eyes... and I thought for a moment he'd admonish the man. But he didn't. And now he's selling the Ayres non-story full-time. Yes, yes, it's all he has. True enough: he no longer has his honor. But we are on the edge of some real serious craziness here and it would be nice if McCain did the right thing and told his more bloodthirsty supporters to go home and take a cold shower.

-edit-

Another commentator gets it:

When the McCain campaign cast the spell of diabolical jingoism, they have no idea of the forces they are toying with. We remember Martin Luther King's murder as a sad and tragic event. Less remembered is the fact that ground-work for King's murder was seeded, not simply by rank white supremacy, but by people who slandered King as a communist.

This was not some notion bandied about by conspiracy theorist, but an accusation proffered by men who were the pillars of the modern Republican Party:

As late as 1964, Falwell was attacking the 1964 Civil Rights Act as "civil wrongs" legislation. He questioned "the sincerity and intentions of some civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., James Farmer, and others, who are known to have left-wing associations." Falwell charged, "It is very obvious that the Communists, as they do in all parts of the world, are taking advantage of a tense situation in our land, and are exploiting every incident to bring about violence and bloodshed."

[...] Let me be clear--This is the ghost that McCain Campaign is summoning. This is the Ring Of Power that they want to wield. The Muslim charge, the "Hussein" thing is nothing more than today's red-baiting, and it is what it was then--a cover for racists. You may say I'm overreacting, and I really hope you're right. 999,000 out 1 million times we'll go on like normal and proceed to Election Day. But if some **** pops off, the thug and thug-mongers will not be able to throw up their hands and say "How could I have known?" Ignorance will not save them. Their stupidity is a scourge on us all.

[Koga No Goshi]

Sounds pretty definitive to me.

Meanwhile, I get the impression that McCain is riding a tiger when it comes to inciting the crazies. Does the Name Yitzhak Rabin ring a bell? I'm not the only one getting creeped out by the foam-at-the-mouth crowd ...

I'm beginning to worry about the level of craziness on the Republican side, the over-the-top, stampede-the-crowd statements by everyone from McCain on down, the vehemence of the crowds that McCain and Palin are drawing with people shouting "Kill him" and "He's a terrorist" and "Off with his head."

Watch the tape of the guy screaming, "He's a terrorist!" McCain seems to shudder at that, he rolls his eyes... and I thought for a moment he'd admonish the man. But he didn't. And now he's selling the Ayres non-story full-time. Yes, yes, it's all he has. True enough: he no longer has his honor. But we are on the edge of some real serious craziness here and it would be nice if McCain did the right thing and told his more bloodthirsty supporters to go home and take a cold shower.

-edit-

Another commentator gets it:

When the McCain campaign cast the spell of diabolical jingoism, they have no idea of the forces they are toying with. We remember Martin Luther King's murder as a sad and tragic event. Less remembered is the fact that ground-work for King's murder was seeded, not simply by rank white supremacy, but by people who slandered King as a communist.

This was not some notion bandied about by conspiracy theorist, but an accusation proffered by men who were the pillars of the modern Republican Party:

As late as 1964, Falwell was attacking the 1964 Civil Rights Act as "civil wrongs" legislation. He questioned "the sincerity and intentions of some civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., James Farmer, and others, who are known to have left-wing associations." Falwell charged, "It is very obvious that the Communists, as they do in all parts of the world, are taking advantage of a tense situation in our land, and are exploiting every incident to bring about violence and bloodshed."

[...] Let me be clear--This is the ghost that McCain Campaign is summoning. This is the Ring Of Power that they want to wield. The Muslim charge, the "Hussein" thing is nothing more than today's red-baiting, and it is what it was then--a cover for racists. You may say I'm overreacting, and I really hope you're right. 999,000 out 1 million times we'll go on like normal and proceed to Election Day. But if some **** pops off, the thug and thug-mongers will not be able to throw up their hands and say "How could I have known?" Ignorance will not save them. Their stupidity is a scourge on us all.

My parents who lived through a lot of this time period obviously, have been talking about this as well. Both are very politically engaged this year. And even my dad, a Republican by voting record since before I was born, has been saying McCain HAS to put a stop to this. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I do not see any sufficient incentive for McCain to do so. I will be pleasantly surprised if what we are seeing is NOT the tenor of the race till election day.

I've already "joked" to a friend going to an Obama appearance next week, "you know you have to be ready to jump in front of a lone gunman right?" It's not funny, but we're all thinking it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Sounds pretty definitive to me.

Meanwhile, I get the impression that McCain is riding a tiger when it comes to inciting the crazies. Does the Name Yitzhak Rabin ring a bell? I'm not the only one getting creeped out by the foam-at-the-mouth crowd ...

I'm beginning to worry about the level of craziness on the Republican side, the over-the-top, stampede-the-crowd statements by everyone from McCain on down, the vehemence of the crowds that McCain and Palin are drawing with people shouting "Kill him" and "He's a terrorist" and "Off with his head."

Watch the tape of the guy screaming, "He's a terrorist!" McCain seems to shudder at that, he rolls his eyes... and I thought for a moment he'd admonish the man. But he didn't. And now he's selling the Ayres non-story full-time. Yes, yes, it's all he has. True enough: he no longer has his honor. But we are on the edge of some real serious craziness here and it would be nice if McCain did the right thing and told his more bloodthirsty supporters to go home and take a cold shower.

-edit-

Another commentator gets it:

When the McCain campaign cast the spell of diabolical jingoism, they have no idea of the forces they are toying with. We remember Martin Luther King's murder as a sad and tragic event. Less remembered is the fact that ground-work for King's murder was seeded, not simply by rank white supremacy, but by people who slandered King as a communist.

This was not some notion bandied about by conspiracy theorist, but an accusation proffered by men who were the pillars of the modern Republican Party:

As late as 1964, Falwell was attacking the 1964 Civil Rights Act as "civil wrongs" legislation. He questioned "the sincerity and intentions of some civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., James Farmer, and others, who are known to have left-wing associations." Falwell charged, "It is very obvious that the Communists, as they do in all parts of the world, are taking advantage of a tense situation in our land, and are exploiting every incident to bring about violence and bloodshed."

[...] Let me be clear--This is the ghost that McCain Campaign is summoning. This is the Ring Of Power that they want to wield. The Muslim charge, the "Hussein" thing is nothing more than today's red-baiting, and it is what it was then--a cover for racists. You may say I'm overreacting, and I really hope you're right. 999,000 out 1 million times we'll go on like normal and proceed to Election Day. But if some **** pops off, the thug and thug-mongers will not be able to throw up their hands and say "How could I have known?" Ignorance will not save them. Their stupidity is a scourge on us all.

What a complete non-story. Where has the Leemster been the last 8 years while the crazies have been calling for Bush to be tortured and killed at anti-war rallies - all the while bolstered by extreme rhetoric from far left politicians such as Murtha? Has the Leemster ever been to a political rally and witnessed first hand the type of people such events draw? This meme that since Obama is black he is at some greater risk of being assassinated is ridiculous. Bush has garnered extreme hatred for years, but nobody on the left stood up to say "tone it down guys".

McCain is well within the bounds of reasonable campaigning to question Obama's ties to terrorists. Crazies will always make such inferences to justify their opinions. The McCain campaign has already stated that it does not condone or approve of this kind of activity.

Btw - the MLK reference gets its own . Is this what its come to? Not that I think that adulterer is a great man, but crowning Obama the next MLK is essentially deification in this country.

[Gregoshi]

Bush has garnered extreme hatred for years, but nobody on the left stood up to say "tone it down guys".

PJ, that's because the folks on the left don't have any guns. The best they could do would be to chuck a 50 pound bundle of tax legislation at Bush.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What a complete non-story. Where has the Leemster been the last 8 years while the crazies have been calling for Bush to be tortured and killed at anti-war rallies - all the while bolstered by extreme rhetoric from far left politicians such as Murtha? Has the Leemster ever been to a political rally and witnessed first hand the type of people such events draw? This meme that since Obama is black he is at some greater risk of being assassinated is ridiculous. Bush has garnered extreme hatred for years, but nobody on the left stood up to say "tone it down guys".

McCain is well within the bounds of reasonable campaigning to question Obama's ties to terrorists. Crazies will always make such inferences to justify their opinions. The McCain campaign has already stated that it does not condone or approve of this kind of activity.

Btw - the MLK reference gets its own . Is this what its come to? Not that I think that adulterer is a great man, but crowning Obama the next MLK is essentially deification in this country.

Panzer:

I have never personally heard anyone call for Bush's assassination, for which I am thankful. I have heard him disparaged in any number of ways, but no actual threat. It strikes me that most of the leftie loons at such rallies don't want him dead -- what they actually want is for he and his entire administrative hierarchy to be publicly humiliated for months on end in a public trial and subsequently jailed for war crimes. The goal is, as much as anything else, the public debasement of all things connected to Bush. As this would also end the GOP, they'd also achieve a more short term objective as well.

I do fear somewhat for Obama's safety and disagree with you as to whether his ethnicity makes his risk higher. There are loons on both ends of the US political spectrum, so I am sure both have received threats therefrom, however there is another slice of looney-dum [sic on purpose], the would be race-warriors, who also poses a threat to Obama.


The "mantle" of MLK has been passed around a bit since his murder, but Obama wears it better than many who've sought it more directly. BTW, what in heaven's name do you have to do to be a "great man" if MLK can't get kudos?


Sad news for the GOP. National polls suggest that McCain has to collect the remaining uncommitted voters at about 2 for 1 to pass Obama. A very tall order in these economic times...

[OverKnight]

The last half of the 20th Century has shown that right-wing nutjobs are better assassins than left-wing nutjobs.

Wounded:

Ronald Reagan


Dead:

John Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Martin Luther King


Missed: A lot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Assasinations

There will always be some crazies, but kicking the hornet's nest isn't a great move.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Actually, I believe JFK's killer was a communist. His brother's killer was angry over Robert's support of Israel. MLK's killer looked to be a petty racist criminal.

Even Reagan's attacker wasn't left wing so much as a really weird celebrity stalker type.

CR

[Spino]

The last half of the 20th Century has shown that right-wing nutjobs are better assassins than left-wing nutjobs.

Wounded:

Ronald Reagan


Dead:

John Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Martin Luther King


Missed: A lot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Assasinations

There will always be some crazies, but kicking the hornet's nest isn't a great move.

Ummmm....

Ronald Reagan was shot by an attention whoring nutjob who had a thing for left wing nutjob Jodie Foster who played the part of an exploited child prostitute in Taxi Driver who was saved by a mentally unstable nutjob who may have had right wing leanings.

Lee Harvey Oswald was not a right wing nut job. He was also an attention whoring nutjob who defected to the Soviet Union and was subsequently kicked out because that country's left wing nutjobs thought he was one of the most annoying nutjobs to ever defect to their country. True, Oswald was an ex-Marine but the last I checked right wing nutjobs have an allergic reaction to all things Communist.

Sirhan Sirhan was a Jew hating nutjob who had no political affiliation beyond his devotion to the Palestinian people. I assume you associate all Jew hating nutjobs as being right wing by default. Given the intellectual fallout caused by the Holocaust I might give you this one.

MLK was assassinated by a racist southerner who probably had Democratic sympathies. Whether that makes him a right or left wing nutjob or simply a racist nutjob i'll leave to you to decide. As with Sirhan Sirhan I assume you consider all racist nutjobs to be right wing nutjobs.

Now... You may want to consider that some of the CIA's best assassins were employed by Democratic administrations during the Cold War. Perhaps one could spin that as saying the best right wing nutjob assassins were employed by left wing nutjob leaders looking to impose their ideology on the rest of the world.

[Gregoshi]

Perhaps one could spin that as saying the best right wing nutjob assassins were employed by left wing nutjob leaders looking to impose their ideology on the rest of the world.

How's that go again...righty tighty, lefty loosey?

[Lemur]

Another grumpy ex-McCain supporter chimes in:

John McCain: In 2000, as a lifelong Republican, I worked to get you elected instead of George W. Bush. In return, you wrote an endorsement of one of my books about military service. You seemed to be a man who put principle ahead of mere political gain.

You have changed. You have a choice: Go down in history as a decent senator and an honorable military man with many successes, or go down in history as the latest abettor of right-wing extremist hate.

John McCain, you are no fool, and you understand the depths of hatred that surround the issue of race in this country. You also know that, post-9/11, to call someone a friend of a terrorist is a very serious matter. You also know we are a bitterly divided country on many other issues. You know that, sadly, in America, violence is always just a moment away. You know that there are plenty of crazy people out there.

Stop! Think! Your rallies are beginning to look, sound, feel and smell like lynch mobs.

John McCain, you're walking a perilous line. If you do not stand up for all that is good in America and declare that Senator Obama is a patriot, fit for office, and denounce your hate-filled supporters when they scream out "Terrorist" or "Kill him," history will hold you responsible for all that follows.

John McCain and Sarah Palin, you are playing with fire, and you know it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzer:

I have never personally heard anyone call for Bush's assassination, for which I am thankful. I have heard him disparaged in any number of ways, but no actual threat. It strikes me that most of the leftie loons at such rallies don't want him dead -- what they actually want is for he and his entire administrative hierarchy to be publicly humiliated for months on end in a public trial and subsequently jailed for war crimes. The goal is, as much as anything else, the public debasement of all things connected to Bush. As this would also end the GOP, they'd also achieve a more short term objective as well.

I've never personally heard anyone call for Obama's assassination either.

I have witnessed this invective towards Bush on campus - coming from professors no less. The hatred towards Bush is staggering.

I do fear somewhat for Obama's safety and disagree with you as to whether his ethnicity makes his risk higher. There are loons on both ends of the US political spectrum, so I am sure both have received threats therefrom, however there is another slice of looney-dum [sic on purpose], the would be race-warriors, who also poses a threat to Obama.

I just don't agree. Race is no more or less of a reason for nuts to target Obama than, say, Bush's evangelist Christianity, Clinton's "shame" to the office of POTUS, or Reagan's feirce anti-communism. People were fervent about all of those.

The "mantle" of MLK has been passed around a bit since his murder, but Obama wears it better than many who've sought it more directly. BTW, what in heaven's name do you have to do to be a "great man" if MLK can't get kudos?

The truth about MLK and the narrative aren't one in the same.

[Strike For The South]

The truth about MLK and the narrative aren't one in the same.

and here is where the ice gets thin I agree with you but personal life should not take away from the mans public accomplishments.

[Koga No Goshi]

What a complete non-story. Where has the Leemster been the last 8 years while the crazies have been calling for Bush to be tortured and killed at anti-war rallies -

Oh yes, because we have a history that shows an equal likelihood of assasinations of conservative white male politicians as any other type. Same same same.

Panzer, you clearly listen to too much talk radio scum like Michael Savage who get on there all day and deconstruct progressive figures like MLK Jr. and dismisses that there is any race problem in the U.S., it's all just a conspiracy made up by the left.

And yes, as Seamus basically said.... the left calls for things like war crimes hearings or Congressional hearings or impeachment proceedings. We don't go into churches and blow them up because they are white, or go into doctors offices that won't perform abortions and blow them up for not being pro-choice. But the same is not true in reverse.

You are simply LYING... flat out lying, if you claim to believe that partisanship has the same track record on the issue of the use of violence and assasination to avert unwanted change. You're not even deluded or ignorant, you're lying. There is no way to believe that. Nor any way to believe that pro-war, pro-business groups in the U.S. undergo surveillance or even the arrest and/or assasination of their leaders that anti-war, pro-integration or other movements have in the U.S. throughout its history. Even when Dems are in control.

[Koga No Goshi]

The truth about MLK and the narrative aren't one in the same.

I'm sure you have a lot of Michael Savage stories to tell us to explain that one, but it's all just a smokescreen for your racist beliefs. And a typical tactic of right-wingers to engage in character assasination over irrelevant things in a pathetic attempt to undermine the importance of many figures who have worked for progressive causes in U.S. history.

Out of curiosity, would any of you righties abandon McCain if a young woman came forward with proof he had an affair with her? Or would you just start making sarcastic remarks that she must be a Democratic operative?

[Lemur]

Interesting, the McCain campaign came out and defended the people shouting things like "Kill him!" at the rallies. Their counter-argument is based entirely on bittergate. I guess the upshot is that they approve of this behavior. Weird, man.

Earlier today, Obama remarked on recent outbursts of "Traitor!" "Terrorist!" and "Kill him!" at McCain campaign events. "It's easy to rile up a crowd," Obama said. "Nothing's easier than riling up a crowd by stoking anger and division. But that's not what we need right now in the United States."

In response, McCain senior adviser Nicolle Wallace released this statement, NBC's Kelly O'Donnell reports. "Barack Obama's assault on our supporters is insulting and unsurprising. These are the same people Obama called 'bitter' and attacked for 'clinging to guns' and faith."

[Koga No Goshi]

Surprise surprise. So now those people only shouted "kill him" because they're victims of the horrible vitriol of mean, mean Barack Obama.

[Gregoshi]

The McCain campaign appears to be disintegrating before our very eyes.

[drone]

Indeed. I would think that threats to kill a sitting US Senator would be frowned upon at the least.

[Koga No Goshi]

Indeed. I would think that threats to kill a sitting US Senator would be frowned upon at the least.

It has always been fair game in America when it comes to a progressive. More than usual, it's been the tradition.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Out of curiosity, would any of you righties abandon McCain if a young woman came forward with proof he had an affair with her? Or would you just start making sarcastic remarks that she must be a Democratic operative?

I am notorious for my immediate abandonment of candidates who cheat on their wives. If Romney was ever caught in that act it would be the last time you ever heard me say a nice thing about the guy. I would hold the same standard to Republicans. Over years and years of not cheating I can forgive a candidate, but not entirely. It still bugs the crap out of me that McCain cheated on his first wife.

[Tribesman]

The McCain campaign appears to be disintegrating before our very eyes.

Thats just an illusion just wait , Palin will ride to centre stage on the back of a polar bear with an oil pipe up its behind , waving a mini16 in one hand and the stars and stipes in the other and McCain will come out of the closet with an ex Thai tiger who was his bitch in prison and who has now due to the wonders of private medical provisions become a tigress .

[Strike For The South]

I'm sure you have a lot of Michael Savage stories to tell us to explain that one, but it's all just a smokescreen for your racist beliefs. And a typical tactic of right-wingers to engage in character assasination over irrelevant things in a pathetic attempt to undermine the importance of many figures who have worked for progressive causes in U.S. history.

Out of curiosity, would any of you righties abandon McCain if a young woman came forward with proof he had an affair with her? Or would you just start making sarcastic remarks that she must be a Democratic operative?

Every great American has skeletons in his closet even the white ones.

[Koga No Goshi]

I am notorious for my immediate abandonment of candidates who cheat on their wives. If Romney was ever caught in that act it would be the last time you ever heard me say a nice thing about the guy. I would hold the same standard to Republicans. Over years and years of not cheating I can forgive a candidate, but not entirely. It still bugs the crap out of me that McCain cheated on his first wife.

Well at least you are consistent, although it still rankles me that Dems seem to be "infamous" in the popular opinion for affairs, when you have crap like Foley and Larry Craig and Giuliani and Hastert (many of whom gleefully participated in Clinton's scandal) over on the R side.

[drone]

Well at least you are consistent, although it still rankles me that Dems seem to be "infamous" in the popular opinion for affairs, when you have crap like Foley and Larry Craig and Giuliani and Hastert (many of whom gleefully participated in Clinton's scandal) over on the R side.

We have a thread for that (or did it get locked?). Talk to Lemur or look through the past ~6 months for toe-tapping.

You need to lay off with the Democratic persecution complex. Coming from a side that supposedly rejects stereotypes, you seem to rely on them in your arguments with a vengeance.

[Spino]

Thats just an illusion just wait , Palin will ride to centre stage on the back of a polar bear with an oil pipe up its behind , waving a mini16 in one hand and the stars and stipes in the other and McCain will come out of the closet with an ex Thai tiger who was his bitch in prison and who has now due to the wonders of private medical provisions become a tigress .

Joke all you like but I'd pay good money to see that.

[Koga No Goshi]

We have a thread for that (or did it get locked?). Talk to Lemur or look through the past ~6 months for toe-tapping.

You need to lay off with the Democratic persecution complex. Coming from a side that supposedly rejects stereotypes, you seem to rely on them in your arguments with a vengeance.

It tends to get under my skin when things the Reps do on a much more overt or organized level somehow winds up getting blamed as a Dem issue. Such as coded hate rhetoric, voter suppression or misconduct. It's not about stereotypes, it's about rhetoric vs. practice.