forgetting any voicemods?

[Aemilius Paulus]

The Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, and Greeks (later with the Byzantines) All thought Armenia was very pivitol or else they wouldnt have made the region the focus of importance/conquest.

You're right, it was. It was a pivotal nation. Armenia was the morsel of land that the Romans and later Byzantines always fought over with other nations as well as with Armenia itself. However, I was saying that the Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, and Greeks were more, most likely much more pivotal. Armenia made a difference, but certainly not as big. It is, after all, far easier to imagine history without Armenia than without Greeks, Romans, Seleukids, or Makedonia for instance. Not accepting the fact that some nations were simply more important than others is an ever present problem with people, as I have observed.

To Tellos Athenaios: Yeah, I realized that recently as well. However, I have heard that some of parts of the voicemod apply to cultures as a whole, such as when you select a couple of units instead of one, n'est-ce pas?

[artavazd]

You're right, it was. It was a pivotal nation. Armenia was the morsel of land that the Romans and later Byzantines always fought over with other nations as well as with Armenia itself. However, I was saying that the Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, and Greeks were more, most likely much more pivotal. Armenia made a difference, but certainly not as big. It is, after all, far easier to imagine history without Armenia than without Greeks, Romans, Seleukids, or Makedonia for instance. Not accepting the fact that some nations were simply more important than others is an ever present problem with people, as I have observed.

To Tellos Athenaios: Yeah, I realized that recently as well. However, I have heard that some of parts of the voicemod apply to cultures as a whole, such as when you select a couple of units instead of one, n'est-ce pas?

First of all your comment that I have made in bold is offensive. I will however tell you this in the Long and I mean very long history of Armenia many nations that you might view as "more important" have tryed to do just that. However they have all failed miserably, and many of those "important" nations do not even exist today. While Armenia has kept its traditions and culture alive for over three thousand years. Now my friend I think that in itself makes Armenia a very important nation.

You need to do more research MUCH MUCH more research. FIrst of all what is it that the Seleukids did that outweighs over 3000 years of Armenian history?? Where are the Seleukids?? Erebuni which is modern Yerevan was built in 782BC 29 years before the name Rome even existed. Armenian art and arcitecture have added much wealth to Human civilization. European gothic churches were inspired by Armenian Church architecture. Armenia was one of the centers of the Neolithic agricultural revolution not to mention irrigation, and metalurgy

[Aemilius Paulus]

I was talking about Armenia's impact on history, not its longevity, which I do find pretty amazing, especially during the time when some Armenians migrated to Kilikia and founded an independent kingdom there, during the Crusades.

I am sorry that you felt that some of my comment were offensive. I tried my best not offend anyone, especially an Armenian fan/native(?) such as you. Once again, I'd like to point out how unnecessarily touchy and assertive people get when their nation is called unimportant. Are you trying to argue that Armenia was more important then the Syrian Empire/Arche Seleukia? I agree that Armenia was important, but to say that it was more crucial then the Seleukids or especially the Romans and Greeks is, well ... just not what I believe to be true.

I was born in Ukraine, but lived m life in Russia. I would not mind for instance, if someone called Ukraine or Russia (before 20th century - when it became really important with WWII and Cold War) unimportant. There is always arguments for both sides. Also, please note that I am not trying to start flaming. I'd like to keep this discussion civil.

[a completely inoffensive name]

How exactly do you measure a culture's impact on history? Is there a chart with guidelines that has different levels like "somewhat", "little" or "huge"?

[Aemilius Paulus]

How exactly do you measure a culture's impact on history? Is there a chart with guidelines that has different levels like "somewhat", "little" or "huge"?

C'mon lets not play dumb. You know what I mean, with all due respect, the Romans and Greeks had more of an impact on the history of the world than Armenia. You don't exactly need a chart to figure that out.

[artavazd]

I was talking about Armenia's impact on history, not its longevity, which I do find pretty amazing, especially during the time when some Armenians migrated to Kilikia and founded an independent kingdom there, during the Crusades.

I am sorry that you felt that some of my comment were offensive. I tried my best not offend anyone, especially an Armenian fan/native(?) such as you. Once again, I'd like to point out how unnecessarily touchy and assertive people get when their nation is called unimportant. Are you trying to argue that Armenia was more important then the Syrian Empire/Arche Seleukia? I agree that Armenia was important, but to say that it was more crucial then the Seleukids or especially the Romans and Greeks is, well ... just not what I believe to be true.

I was born in Ukraine, but lived m life in Russia. I would not mind for instance, if someone called Ukraine or Russia (before 20th century - when it became really important with WWII and Cold War) unimportant. There is always arguments for both sides. Also, please note that I am not trying to start flaming. I'd like to keep this discussion civil.

I did list some of the impacts Armenia has had. One of several impacts that I did not mention, is that Armenia has historicaly been the gates to Europe in the East. From the TIme of the Ararat Kingdom(Urartu) of Armenia when the Assyrians were checked from advancing north and west, to the invasion of Arabs, Iranians,Turks, Mongols... One of two things happend. One either Armenia checked the invaders, or felt the full impact of those invasions, thus weakening the invading force by the time they got to eastern Europe.

Also look at this link http://www.huliq.com/56596/stoneheng...enian-karahunj

Also why do you call the Arche Seleukia "Syrian Empire"? what the heck was Syrian about a Greek Empire? Also I will like to mention that the inhabitants of Antioch called on the Armenian King Tigran the Great (KIng of Kings) to get rid of the Seleukids in their city and they willingly became part of the Armenian Empire. That happend in the 80's BC which basicaly ended Arche Seleukia. Now we are at 2008 AD Armenia is on the map but where is "Arche Seleukia"


Russia was not unimportant before the 20th century. Ivan the terrible, Peter the Great do these names ring a bell? I am sorry to say, but your knowledge of history is very scetchy.

[blitzkrieg80]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense in terms of culture and importance

[artavazd]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense in terms of culture and importance

You will be interested in this. http://www.arak29.am/PDF_PPT/origins_2004.pdf

Also check out the works of Colin Renfrew, Vyacheslav Ivanov, Thomas Gamkrelidze, Atkins and Gray

[Strategos Alexandros]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense in terms of culture and importance

No Armenia = No Rome if Armenia really was the Indo-European homeland.

[bovi]

No Armenia = No Rome if Armenia really was the Indo-European homeland.

So you think no other people could have had the same success, if Indo-Europeans had not been those who were there?

when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

In the US, you mean perhaps? I do agree that Rome is more known, but many people here on the other side of the pond know of Armenia. Then again, I'm weak on knowledge of the many nations in the parts of the world that are remote, like the non-huge nations in central America and Asia.

[Gleemonex]

Rome was completely insignificant to the Inca. The Jōmon people were inconsequential to the Prussians. The Zulu Empire was unimportant to the Tsimshian. But I'll bet you anything the Armenians are pretty important to Armenians!

(It's a subjective term, you see)

-Glee

[Aemilius Paulus]

I called it the Syrian Empire because that is the way it is called in Russia, by everyone and everything. Don't ask why, I don't know myself. Could be because of the fact that Antioch was the capital of it for quite some time.

Please, call me anything but ignorant in history. One could not make a greater insult than that. History is pretty much all I live for. I excel in it and that is my main strength. I never said Russia was unimportant. What I really said, If you have read it more carefully, was that you can call Russia and Ukraine unimportant and it will not offend me, unlike you getting offended for having your country slandered that way. Russia was very important, especially during 19th and 18th centuries. However, some people might argue that nations like Britain were more important. During WWII and Cold War, one would be an idiot to deny Russia's importance. It was a major world power then, with one of the largest and best armies and also with the largest land territory.

I would not agree however that Russia was very important in the 1500s-1600s though. Ivan IV was an important Russian figure and he greatly expanded Russia's territory, but outside of Russia, his impact was very limited. After him there was the lengthy Time of Troubles, which cut off Russia from mast foreign powers, although Poland as well as some other Central European Catholic nations did intervene. Peter I was another momentous ruler but he mainly impacted countries such as Sweden and Ottoman Empire, whom he fought against as well as Poland, who was likewise involved in the Great Northern War. Effects on, say, Western Europe were somewhat significant but not as important as minor policies of Britain or France of that time, for example. There were nations far more crucial than Russia at that time. The first time Russia really becomes a world power was during the Seven Years War and of course the Napoleonic Wars.

For God's sake, don't assume that I do not know who Ivan IV or Peter I was. I probably even know more about them than you, having done extensive research on both of them. They were one of the most famous tsars of Russia, and being Russian I ought to know more than any other foreigner. You know your Armenian history better than me, without a doubt, but I have Russian history on my side. I also specialize in Antiquity as well as European history from the Dark Ages to now. My knowledge of Armenia on the other hand only covers a tiny bit of ancient history, the time between the fall of Sleukids to the time when Byzantine Empire fell (the period I know most about), some fragmented knowledge during Early Middle Ages and quite a bit of modern, 20th century history. I am sure you know the history of Armenia better than that.

It is either you're trying to prove your nation's importance too hard, or your nationalistic ego is a bit too inflated.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Now I am thinking this might be getting too off topic and will be promptly crushed by the Foot.

[artavazd]

I called it the Syrian Empire because that is the way it is called in Russia, by everyone and everything. Don't ask why, I don't know myself. Could be because of the fact that Antioch was the capital of it for quite some time.

Please, call me anything but ignorant in history. One could not make a greater insult than that. History is pretty much all I live for. I excel in it and that is my main strength. I never said Russia was unimportant. What I really said, If you have read it more carefully, was that you can call Russia and Ukraine unimportant and it will not offend me, unlike you getting offended for having your country slandered that way. Russia was very important, especially during 19th and 18th centuries. However, some people might argue that nations like Britain were more important. During WWII and Cold War, one would be an idiot to deny Russia's importance. It was a major world power then, with one of the largest and best armies and also with the largest land territory.

I would not agree however that Russia was very important in the 1500s-1600s though. Ivan IV was an important Russian figure and he greatly expanded Russia's territory, but outside of Russia, his impact was very limited. After him there was the lengthy Time of Troubles, which cut off Russia from mast foreign powers, although Poland as well as some other Central European Catholic nations did intervene. Peter I was another momentous ruler but he mainly impacted countries such as Sweden and Ottoman Empire, whom he fought against as well as Poland, who was likewise involved in the Great Northern War. Effects on, say, Western Europe were somewhat significant but not as important as minor policies of Britain or France of that time, for example. There were nations far more crucial than Russia at that time. The first time Russia really becomes a world power was during the Seven Years War and of course the Napoleonic Wars.

For God's sake, don't assume that I do not know who Ivan IV or Peter I was. I probably even know more about them than you, having done extensive research on both of them. They were one of the most famous tsars of Russia, and being Russian I ought to know more than any other foreigner. You know your Armenian history better than me, without a doubt, but I have Russian history on my side. I also specialize in Antiquity as well as European history from the Dark Ages to now. My knowledge of Armenia on the other hand only covers a tiny bit of ancient history, the time between the fall of Sleukids to the time when Byzantine Empire fell (the period I know most about), some fragmented knowledge during Early Middle Ages and quite a bit of modern, 20th century history. I am sure you know the history of Armenia better than that.

It is either you're trying to prove your nation's importance too hard, or your nationalistic ego is a bit too inflated.

Sir there is a lot more Armenian history pretaining to the ancient era that covers more than the time between the fall of the Seleukids and and the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Just look at the link I have posted in the above post, and check out the scholars that I have mentioned in that post as well. The mentioning of Armenia-Armani is found on Akkadian tablets dating to around 2300 BC. This exact tablet is found in the Museum in London. Also the Sumerians make mention of the land of Arata(Ararat) they talk of extended trade with the people of Arata. Also mention the skilled stone crafters that came to Sumeria and worked on their ziggurats.

I suggest for the sake of knowledge to check out the works of the above mentioned scholars. This is new scholary work and findings based on Archeology, Lingustics, and historical primary sources.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Sir there is a lot more Armenian history pretaining to the ancient era that covers more than the time between the fall of the Seleukids and and the fall of the Byzantine Empire.

Yeah, I know that. That is why I said I know only this period, to emphasize the gaps in my knowledge of Armenian history. My pre-Seleukid knowledge of the history history of Armenia is very basic, with only the knowledge of the most important events.

[Tellos Athenaios]

To Tellos Athenaios: Yeah, I realized that recently as well. However, I have heard that some of parts of the voicemod apply to cultures as a whole, such as when you select a couple of units instead of one, n'est-ce pas?

Yes. Which is what happens if an Armenian unit leads the battle, so in other words: that should only happen with armies composed of primarily Armenian units. Either a local army then (for which it makes good sense to use Armenian) or an army of an Armenian polity. In either case, that's a cool immersive feature isn't it?

Also, I forgot to tell you; the number of Voicemods isn't neccesarily an indication of the (wo)man-power EB got: quite a few are joint efforts, opportunities to work with people outside EB and/or it may involve team members who'se efforts are wasted elsewhere. I mean, I can 'do' Ancient Greek a bit but I'm worthless by any form of decent standards when it comes to historical research. So, I'll hope to find time to do more on the Ancient Greek Voicemod, but the fact that I do does not indicate EB is -in theory- ready to release the Hellenistic factions.

@Foot: yeah, I see what you mean however there is a difference between 'EB 1' and 'EB 2': in EB 1 as we both know it would be impossible due to similar restrictions as those that apply to the Voicemod for the Sweboz in EB 1. In EB 2 with its system of accents, thats a whole different matter and if we have the opportunity .... it's going to be so awesome.

[blitzkrieg80]

Russia (the geographical unit) is not necessarily defined by the Slavs. Russia was quite a bit important all the while steppe peoples poured forth (which is quite a span of time)... one cannot say the Scythic culture zone was inconsequential, nor the Kipchak, ect. Central Asia is equally underestimated and luckily has been getting some due attention such as in EB with the help of such knowledgeable interested people as we've got. It may be that the oasis cities and high Islamic / Persian cultures of Central Asia makes it seem more immediately 'important' than pagans in Eurasia, but as has been argued, that is a very subjective thing. Religion in many ways helps the spread of literacy and the cultural value associated with the great works produced, but in many ways, the stories written were just as valuable as a piece of oral tradition, if not more valuable, because oral tradition keeps it fluid and dynamic, changing aspects on the fly depending on audience, changing words to make the story new every time. Jazz came about from this very thing, because improvisation is an important aspect of human culture that is NOT helped by literacy despite its best efforts.