Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Andres]

We've seen what happens when the military bends over to placate the Muslims. Real Americans get shot to death.

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

[Fragony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNWh7dzrbKs

Real Belgians? Always the sames. Real Belgians shoot at the police with kalashnikovs when they enter their enclaves?

[Incongruous]

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

Christopher Hitchens is a fake American!

[Skullheadhq]

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

[republican] Obama is a fake American!! [/republican]

[Andres]

Real Belgians

Show me one when you find him

Maybe there's still one running around in some cave in the Ardennes, wearing some animal skin and drinking self made beer A moustache is mandatory, even if it's a woman

[Fragony]

You know the type, these guys and girls that better not show their face in said enclaves. Or is it all fine and well in Belgium, all living the dream exchanging recepy's and cool stuff like that. All is fine in France as well, no problems in Sweden or Germany. Nothing to see here, move along it's all so wonderful.

[Andres]

You know the type, these guys and girls that better not show their face in said enclaves. Or is it all fine and well in Belgium, all living the dream exchanging recepy's and cool stuff like that. All is fine in France as well, no problems in Sweden or Germany. Nothing to see here, move along it's all so wonderful.

Did I say all is fine in Belgium?

I am merely pointing out the ridiculousness of notions as "Real Americans" and "Real Belgians". Not to mention what thinking that way and putting human beings in such categories can lead to.

Of course Belgium has immigration and integration issues, just like any other country. I won't deny that.

But making the distinction between "Muslims" and "Real Americans" or "Real Belgians" is not good. As if a Muslim can't be a "real American" and as if all "real Americans" are by definition good people. Don't you see how close that gets to considering a certain group of people inferior to another group?

Tell me Fragony, and Panzerjaeger, do you guys consider Muslims to be inferior to "Real Americans/Dutchies/Belgians"? Can a Muslim ever become a Real American in your opinion? Or are Muslims doomed to be forever less than "real Americans"?

Because that's what it comes down to, isn't it? Putting a certain group of people lower than "your own kind" and in the proces dehumanising that group, isn't it?

[Fragony]

Aren't Islamo supremacists the ones doing that? Yeah my Turkish baker is absolutely Dutch, he sees it like that after all, he just wants to make living. He's a devout muslim and is a very nice person, doesn't let me go before I have sugar-poisening, why should I give crap about him. What makes you think I do? Going to Iran in october been invited by friends, guess they don't know how I really feel about them.

edit: more on the imam. http://www.shoebat.com/blog/archives/273

building bridges ya, you really had it coming when they destroyed the twin towers. That is what he says when not talking to the loonieleft who hungrily gob up every word he says.

Personally I don't think Americans deserved 9/11, kinda nasty. You do deserve this mosque though, ijjits tiqiyyayaya yes indeed

[rory_20_uk]

Did I say all is fine in Belgium?

I am merely pointing out the ridiculousness of notions as "Real Americans" and "Real Belgians". Not to mention what thinking that way and putting human beings in such categories can lead to.

Of course Belgium has immigration and integration issues, just like any other country. I won't deny that.

But making the distinction between "Muslims" and "Real Americans" or "Real Belgians" is not good. As if a Muslim can't be a "real American" and as if all "real Americans" are by definition good people. Don't you see how close that gets to considering a certain group of people inferior to another group?

Tell me Fragony, and Panzerjaeger, do you guys consider Muslims to be inferior to "Real Americans/Dutchies/Belgians"? Can a Muslim ever become a Real American in your opinion? Or are Muslims doomed to be forever less than "real Americans"?

Because that's what it comes down to, isn't it? Putting a certain group of people lower than "your own kind" and in the proces dehumanising that group, isn't it?

Ye Gods' - since the dawn of time every tribs has considered themselves better than every other one! It's part of the human condition to think one's kids are better than others, one's town is better than others, one's footbal club is better than others. Every animal on their planet will fight for theirs against others. Those that don't... die. So, the ones that are left are bloody good at fighting their corner.

And you expect in the blink of an evolutionary eye for humans to all suddenly view each other as equals and play nice? Oh, we might talk the talk and some might even walk the walk, but the vast majority when the ordure hits the windmill will place their own above others.

[PanzerJaeger]

I don't understand how something that is factual can be "relativist." Hamas builds and runs hospitals and clinics; nobody contests this. They also blow innocent civilians up. The one does not invalidate the other.

Obviously, as Americans we see Hamas first and foremost as a terrorist organization, but the truth on the ground is a little more complicated. Likewise the Muslim Brotherhood, which has been several different things since 1928.

It depends on the context, which is why I am withholding judgment until I have some time to actually research the whole statement.

For example, if I was asked to describe Stalin's reign in Russia and I focused on his introduction of free health care to the Russia people and a developed transportation system while 'refusing to acknowledge the bad', that might indicate certain bias.

However, if I mentioned those good things in a more balanced statement that also included the bad stuff, it would be factual.

The context is what matters.

Tell me Fragony, and Panzerjaeger, do you guys consider Muslims to be inferior to "Real Americans/Dutchies/Belgians"? Can a Muslim ever become a Real American in your opinion? Or are Muslims doomed to be forever less than "real Americans"?

I've discussed my feelings about muslims many times on this board, and I have the warning points to show for it.

Think of me as Winston sitting at the cafe at the end of 1984, capitulated and converted. I've no interest in heading back to The Ministry of Love.

[Fragony]

Awwwwwwwww read the link I posted, it's much worse than just excusing Hamas, he excuses 9/11. You really had it coming. Why? Because you are the dominant power, an obvious humiliation of muslims that's so cruel. Your muslim brotherhood affiliated bridgebuilder also wants shariah in the US, that there is only one god and his name is Allah stuff. Leftist people know that that is respect. Or they really don't know it isn't, but they will ignore it anyway BAD WORLDVIEW NEINNEINNEIN. The leftist mind is still a puzzle to me.

[Lemur]

edit: more on the imam. http://www.shoebat.com/blog/archives/273

This is a 100% re-heated meal. The first damning quote is about how he doesn't believe in "religious dialogue," in which he explains that he means the sorts of empty affairs in hotel conference centers where everybody eats a donut and talks about how much dialogue they're accomplishing. Classic example of a quote taken out of context. Hell, they even provide the context, while refusing to acknowledge that the Imam is making a fairly subtle point.

Then they're off to the races with another twisting of a quote:

“Throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians, it is clear an Islamic state can be established in more then just a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Shariah that are required to govern. It is known that there are sets of standards that are accepted by [Muslim] scholars to organize the relationships between government and the governed.”

When questioned about this, Abdul Rauf continued “Current governments are unjust and do not follow Islamic laws.” He added “New laws were permitted after the death of Muhammad, so long of course that these laws do not contradict the Quran or the Deeds of Muhammad…so they create institutions that assure no conflicts with Shariah.” [emphasis in translation]

In yet plainer English, Abdul Rauf’s goal is the imposition of Shariah law – in every country, including the U. S.

No, in "plainer English," that's not what he has said at all. The dude has just gone on at length about how democracy, moderation and new laws (i.e., modernity) are not incompatible with Islam. I don't know how a guy talking to a muslim audience could be less hostile to modern life, western civilization and pluralism. Sure, he couches the whole thing in terms of what is or is not Sharia, but if you'll take the hate bit from between your teeth, you'll see the man is arguing for compatibility between Sharia and modern, plural democracy. This qualifies him for a fanatic? Only in a fanatic's eyes.

The author then states, "In the Hadiyul-Islam article, Abdul Rauf reiterates that an Islamic state under Shariah law with no separation of church and state can be established even when the government is a kingdom or a democracy." Given how completely (and deliberately) he has misunderstood the previous two quotes, I'll take a pass on his interpretation this time. Give me an actual quote or go home crying, kid.

Lastly he quotes from a 60 minutes interview in which Rauf articulates the blowback theory, which was also put forward by such noted islamists as Ron Paul. Note that I believe the blowback theory to be utterly wrong, but it is not a particularly islamist or evil theory.

Personally I don't think Americans deserved 9/11, kinda nasty.

Wonderful misreading of the blowback theory. Let us know when you want to debate something that someone actually said.

The leftist mind is still a puzzle to me.

Are you sure you need the word "leftist" in that statement?

[Fragony]

Posted it 10 minutes ago, you watched these 60 minutes really fast. You sure you are interested in honest debate?

edit: End yes I really do have to do that. I guess we have some more experience here by now. Don't worry you'll catch up.

[PanzerJaeger]

Throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians, it is clear an Islamic state can be established in more then just a single form or mold.

Is he arguing for the establishment of an Islamic state in the United States?

When questioned about this, Abdul Rauf continued “Current governments are unjust and do not follow Islamic laws.”

Is there any indication which governments Rauf is talking about?


There seems to be a bit more going on here than peace, love, and harmony.

[Lemur]

Posted it 10 minutes ago, you watched these 60 minutes really fast. You sure you are interested in honest debate?

"60 minutes" is the name of a television program; if you read your own link, you would see that there is no hour of video footage. Just a rather short series of quotes from a program called 60 minutes. Cheers. I have quoted from and responded to your latest hysterical panic blog. Ball's in your court.

Best response to the mosque evar:

MY NEW GAY BAR

So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it's all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.

As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque - after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law - who can stop them?

Which is, why, in the spirit of outreach, I've decided to do the same thing.

I'm announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space.

This is not a joke. I've already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance.

As you know, the Muslim faith doesn't look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I'm building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world.

The goal, however, is not simply to open a typical gay bar, but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor, for example, will feature non-alcoholic drinks, since booze is forbidden by the faith. The bar will be open all day and night, to accommodate men who would rather keep their sexuality under wraps - but still want to dance.

Bottom line: I hope that the mosque owners will be as open to the bar, as I am to the new mosque. After all, the belief driving them to open up their center near Ground Zero, is no different than mine.

My place, however, will have better music.



-edit-

Is he arguing for the establishment of an Islamic state in the United States?

Not in the quotes provided. Maybe elsewhere, but not here.

Is there any indication which governments Rauf is talking about?

Not in the quotes provided, although the obvious targets of such quotes would be Egypt, Syria, Sudan, etc., which claim to be Islamic but are merely totalitarian.

[Fragony]

So your argument is that there are modern muslims? We know that already there are 100%hallal sexshop here.

[Lemur]

So your argument is that there are modern muslims?

Fragony, the moment you are willing to do me the courtesy of actually responding to something I have said, we'll be off to the races. In the meantime, stuff your strawmen on your own time.

[Fragony]

Fragony, the moment you are willing to do me the courtesy of actually responding to something I have said, we'll be off to the races. In the meantime, stuff your strawmen on your own time.

I don't have to respond on how you think I think, the evidence is kinda more leaning to what I said isn't it, everyting I posted comes with sources, and these sources as well, filed and ready. What you got is the gaybar that changed the world.

edit, must admit I didn't read it, yes that is awesome.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

Why don't you think about it, it looks like in your next few posts you didn't try to define it, but you know what "real" means surely.

It's not usually contrasted with "fake" when used this way. More like "there are x's, and then there are real x's". Like in sports when they say someone is a "real competitor" they aren't accusing the other players of only pretending to compete.

So you have americans, aka people who live here and have citizenship. And then real americans would be the set of americans who embody some features that make america distinct from other countries. Some kind of culture and beliefs thing. Same for real belgians. It's not hard to see that if someone moves to belgium and makes their wife wear a burkha etc, they aren't a real belgian. There's not much about them that you would describe as "belgian" right? Besides their citizenship.

You're also reading more than is said by pj:

I wonder if the Hassan incident has caused any critical reassessment of this. We've seen what happens when the military bends over to placate the Muslims. Real Americans get shot to death.

After the hassan shooting, the news story was that several people had noticed warning signs, but were not able to get enough done because of something like political correctness (whether this is true is a different discussion). Hassan was not a real american I think we can agree.

Adam Yahiye Gadahn, the American-born al-Qaeda spokesman, declared Hasan a "pioneer" whose actions at Fort Hood should be followed by other Muslims.

This guy isn't either...

But none of this is to say that the real americans who got shot couldn't have been muslims.

Probably pj believes the number of muslims who aren't real americans is larger than you believe, you could have focused on that instead of going for the rhetoric

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hassan was not a real american I think we can agree.

Beware the no true Scotsman fallacy

Although I actually I agree with you, I'm just pointing this out to show why I think the 'no true Scotsman fallacy' is often thrown at people unfairly, and I think this is what is leading Andres into conflict with PJ etc

Because when you talk about a nation like Scotland or the USA, there is usually more implied in the meaning than just citizenship and legal status. A Scotsman would be expected to exhibit certain traits, like wife-beating or a love for knife crime (yeah we have the best stereotypes ).

Maybe the different approaches Andres and PJ have is due to the sort of state they live in themselves. Being Belgian can mean you are Flemish, a Walloon, there's no real Belgian culture, so 'Belgianness' is more a legal status. Whereas the USA has the whole WASP culture/history, and those criteria are seen as just as much a part of being American as your legal status.

I guess it's just the old civic v ethnic nationalism.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Beware the no true Scotsman fallacy

Although I actually I agree with you, I'm just pointing this out to show why I think the 'no true Scotsman fallacy' is often thrown at people unfairly, and I think this is what is leading Andres into conflict with PJ etc

heh, yeah, I never claimed that no american would do what he did. Several have. And the "true scotsman" or "real american" descriptor is pretty vague and not that useful a phrase or concept. I just don't think using it makes you a supremacist dehumanizer or whatever andres said.

Maybe the different approaches Andres and PJ have is due to the sort of state they live in themselves. Being Belgian can mean you are Flemish, a Walloon, there's no real Belgian culture, so 'Belgianness' is more a legal status. Whereas the USA has the whole WASP culture/history, and those criteria are seen as just as much a part of being American as your legal status.

I guess it's just the old civic v ethnic nationalism.

Well, I can easily understand that belgium is like that. I don't think it's really a "vs", or shouldn't be.

[Lemur]

New board software won't let me embed the video, but let me say for the record that Trade Martin's We Gotta Stop the Mosque at Ground Zero is my favorite song of all time.

We’ve got “Freedom Of Religion”…., I understand….,
But Ground Zero is one location, where a Mosque shouldn’t stand…..!!!

(Chorus)
We’ve got to stop the Mosque at Ground Zero……,
From thumin’ its nose at every victim and hero……,
Thousands of Americans died in the attack……,
It’s a sacred place, and that’s a cold hard fact……!!!

There’s a painful memory in our minds……,
Our hearts keep breakin’ when we envision that tragic time.

(Chorus)

God help us retain the honor and trust…….,
For all the families…., who have suffered so damn much…!!!

Many Innocent Americans were killed
If we let them build it, can't you see...
They'll turn 9-11 to a mockery...!!!

(Chorus)

[Andres]

Sasaki, I interpreted PJ's and Fragony's posts as statements that Muslims can never be Real Americans, because they are Muslims.

If that was not what they meant, then I apologise to Panzerjaeger and Fragony

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Real Americans" also smells like nationalism, which I'm currently allergic to, but that has more to do with the current situation in my own country than anything else. Politicians here are so occupied with (partially self-created) Walloon-Fleming contrasts that nothing in this country moves or get done. A couple of years ago, I would have played along with that, but the more things continue like this in my country, I'm slowly entering the stadium of complete apathy. It's just too absurd to keep getting worked up about. But that's food for a different thread, one on Belgian politics. But I won't open one myself, because, as I said, I'm slowly getting to the past caring - apathy stadium.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

"Real Americans" also smells like nationalism, which I'm currently allergic to, but that has more to do with the current situation in my own country than anything else. Politicians here are so occupied with (partially self-created) Walloon-Fleming contrasts that nothing in this country moves or get done. A couple of years ago, I would have played along with that, but the more things continue like this in my country, I'm slowly entering the stadium of complete apathy. It's just too absurd to keep getting worked up about. But that's food for a different thread, one on Belgian politics. But I won't open one myself, because, as I said, I'm slowly getting to the past caring - apathy stadium.

I think the importance of patriotism is that it is an antidote to apathy...the caricature of it presented by politicians is often on the sickening side however.

[Fragony]

That's ok but I still think they aren't real Belgians, they only dress like idiots once a year at carnaval. A little bit too much effort to celebrate it all year imho

[PanzerJaeger]

Sasaki, I interpreted PJ's and Fragony's posts as statements that Muslims can never be Real Americans, because they are Muslims.

Yes and no. I believe that real Muslims - those that strictly adhere to the Qur'an and any of the dominant interpretations of Sharia law - cannot be real Americans. The overarching concepts of the two differ to such an extent that overlapping membership is just not possible.

That being said, there are millions of what I'll call "ethnic Muslims" that have adopted the time honored American tradition of picking and choosing which aspects of their religion to embrace and which to completely disregard. Welcome aboard, I say.

That is really my concern with this Imam. Both Lemur and Frag have made good points, and I just don't know enough about him to make a judgment. If he wants to build a Muslim state in America he needs to be put in a camp somewhere and left to rot. If he wants to build a Muslim state in a country like Saudi Arabia because he believes it is a fraud, that is a different story completely. As I said, context is important - and I just don't have the time to try to look these comments up.

[rory_20_uk]

What about "real" Jews? We've got some coming for a meal with the senior partners. Ye Gods, what a nightmare! Rules about everything - how it's cooked, what it's cooked near, getting a sodding Rabbi to bless it to boot! I couldn't help thinking "do we need the business that much?"

Come to think of it, what about "real" Catholics? They are in essence swearing loyalty to the head of a foreign state.

[Fragony]

Perfectly reasonable http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...yGbLsDGVMt2sTP in a dialogue you consider each other grievances, and it's dialogue crave much no. So time to find out if they want a mosque, or a mosque near ground zero.

the developrs declined to comment, that's odd for people who want dialogue.

[Lemur]

the developrs declined to comment, that's odd for people who want dialogue.

Mayor Bloomberg also declined to comment for that article, so he must be evil too. Seriouly, how can you slam them for avoiding comment to a Rupert Murdoch paper when they're in the middle of a whipped-up firestorm?

Sounds to me like Patterson is doing the right thing. Although a muslim-friendly gay bar still rocks.

[Hax]

he needs to be put in a camp somewhere and left to rot.

Wait, that reminds me of something