An attack on secularism?

[The Celtic Viking]

Ugh. Rhyfelwyr, this will be a pain to me, so I hope you're happy and appreciate my gesture.

Secularism means the instititionalised separation of church and state, yes or no?

Yes. If you know this then it truly baffles me how you can call a system that would allow for church to meddle in the state's business "secular".

Now, it so happens that in certain circles, secularism has been turned into something more than that, and has became an ideology in its own right, eg secular humanism.

Nope - secularism hasn't turned into anything. Secular humanism is named so because it's secular and it is humanism. It's like saying freedom turned into free market.

I know that in for example, France, laicite means that your political beliefs should not be influenced by your religious beliefs. This is alternative form of secularism, which focuses on 'freedom from', religion, as opposed to 'freedom to' religion.

No, this is exactly what secularism is. Remember what you said before? "Secularism means the instititionalised separation of church and state"? Do I need to check if you understand what the word separation mean? Is that your hangup?

But I think this laicitie cannot really be combined with western views of individual liberty.

Au contraire: western views of individual liberty are impossible without it. If you want to follow your religious rules, fine, no one is stopping you. What you want to be able to do is to force others to comply to your religious views, regardless of whether they're a part of your religion or not, and regardless whether they want it or not. That is theocracy.

Why on earth should someone not be allowed to vote for a certain party on religious grounds?

Because then your religion would be interfering with politics. Your religion has no business doing that.

Who are you to tell me that my religious views cannot influence my politics, only to allow your own political views to be influenced by your Darwinian view of morality?

*Bangs head into wall*

So much is wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

*Breathes in and out several times*

Okay. Lets see:

1) The real questions are these: who are you to tell me that, not only do you know that there is a god, but also that you know that this god cares about what we do? Who are you to tell me that you know god's mind better than I do? Who are you to tell me what he wants of me? Who are you to tell me that, because you accept this religion, I must too?

You are not just arrogant and insulting to the extreme, but you are a theocrat too if you try to use the government for this end.

2) Stop using the word "Darwinian". Unlike religions, who comes up with the idea couldn't be more irrelevant in science, because science cares only about the idea itself. The fact that you don't call people who accept general relativity for "Einsteinists" (as an example) shows your dishonesty.

3) The morals that are relevant to evolution and natural selection are things like not murdering people, not stealing, not lying etc. These are innate in us. We wouldn't have got this far if we thought these things were okay.

4) My morality is completely irrelevant to this discussion anyway. Please try to keep on topic.

That is not giving equality to peoples beliefs.

1) Evolution is not a belief, no one is forcing you to accept it.

2) Letting you force your religious beliefs onto others is not exactly equality of people's beliefs, is it? So equality is not what you're asking for anyway.

Furthermore, I never claimed my religious rights were being discriminated against because I couldn't force them onto others.

You are constantly attacking secularism here, trying to tell me that it is unfair that you can't shove your religion down my throat.

tbh, I don't even think there is such a thing as specific religious rights, there should simply be freedom of conscience.

Then why are you telling me it's unfair that you can't tell me what religion I should follow? (And don't get hungup on "I never said we should force someone to be christian!". You are saying you should be allowed to force me to obey christian rules, regardless of whether I believe in christianity or not. That is the point.)

If my freeedom of conscience dictates that I should not, say, vote for a party which supports abortion, then it is my right not to do so, and to vote for someone else, and not be told that this is somehow against the principles of a secular society.

Yes, you have the right to not vote for a party that supports abortion, but you do not have the right to have abortion banned on religious grounds.

As I said, if you go for the laicitie view where you would say the above is not acceptable, then you must show how this idea of secularism can be compatible with typical western ideas of freedom of conscience.

Easy: you still have the right to believe what you want. That's not the same thing as having the right to force those religious beliefs on others. That would violate their freedom of conscience.

Oh, and while of course I say my religious views may influence my politics, they are of course bound by the same laws as any other belief would be when it comes to enforcing them on others. So naturally, I could not vote to ban homosexuality because I don't like it.

So you agree that your freedom of conscience is not violated by this? Then why can't you see how your freedom of conscience is not violated by you not being allowed to ban, say, abortion on religious grounds.

In the same way a neo-Nazi couldn't do the same thing. Ultimately, the same rules should apply to any belief, regardless of whether its got anything to do with God or not.

We've got freedom of religion. That includes freedom from religion. In fact, it doesn't make any sense without it! You have no right to force your religion on anyone else, and no one has the right to force their religion onto you. You seem to get it but not get it at the same time, which is really, really frustrating. Are you fine with a hindu using the state to stop you from eating meat because of his religion? If not, you must be able to see why I object to allowing you to use the state to enforce your religious rules on me.

I was talking specifically about Scots law, and how it was clearly brought into line with Reformation thought.

Two things: a) I don't buy that until you get more specific. b) the whole thing was about western law and biblical morality; unless you think "the reformation" is the bible and "Scotland" is "the west", I don't see how you could've claimed that it is "an argument for why biblical morality has had 'a significant influence on western law'".

It is hypothetical. People like The Celtic Viking are telling me that the 1b example is not acceptable in the society we live in, whereas 1a is.

To be specific, I have not (or at the very least, had not) given a personal standpoint on this. I have simply pointed out the fact that secularism means religion can have no thing to say in the state's affairs. If religion could do that, the state could interfere in religious affairs. Perhaps you see the problem better if done that way?

But to answer the question:

1a. This is fine.
1b. This is also fine. Human compassion is not exactly religion, you know.