The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

[tibilicus]

Is the fact that 16 Americans died more significant in comparison to to other industrial disasters. Tell me, did those responsible for Bhopal or anyone outside India care about the thousands which died and the thousands which still continue to die as a consequence? We should all be so lucky that we don't live in the third world, then people wouldn't even care if the death toll was being continuously counted. I mean no disrespect to those people who died on the rig, but lets be quite clear here, Tony Haywood wasn't directly responsible for their deaths. Untied Carbine India on the other hand, that old American company however probably does have blood on its hands.


You should feel glad the Louisiana fishermen will get a pay out, do you think those affected by Bhopal will see anything from the pathetic sum paid out to them. If memory serves me correct, its a minuscule fraction of the BP pay out. But hey, you do it because you can. Ahhhh, the American hypocrisy. So long as it effects us, may the whole world look on at our rage. If it affects anyone else, possibly designate some media coverage.

[Lemur]

tibilicus, you seem to be offended that Americans pay more attention to things that happen to them than things that happen to other people. It sounds as though you think this is a special awfulness that afflicts Americans, rather than, you know, a constant of the human condition.

Let's try on a hypothetical for fun: Would you pay more attention to a fire you read about in Sri Lanka, or a fire that starts in your living room? Would you be a "hypocrite" for paying greater attention to the fire that burned your home?

I swear, sometimes it seems as though folks get worked up about how Americans aren't a special race of super-empathetic Zen saints who defy human nature to beam justice and perfection to every corner of the globe.

Yes, we're paying greater attention to the Gulf spill than we paid to Bhopal, although that also made massive headlines in its day. We're also paying more attention the to Gulf spill than we paid to the Belgian genocide in the Congo. Go figure.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Is the fact that 16 Americans died more significant in comparison to to other industrial disasters. Tell me, did those responsible for Bhopal or anyone outside India care about the thousands which died and the thousands which still continue to die as a consequence? We should all be so lucky that we don't live in the third world, then people wouldn't even care if the death toll was being continuously counted. I mean no disrespect to those people who died on the rig, but lets be quite clear here, Tony Haywood wasn't directly responsible for their deaths. Untied Carbine India on the other hand, that old American company however probably does have blood on its hands.

You should feel glad the Louisiana fishermen will get a pay out, do you think those affected by Bhopal will see anything from the pathetic sum paid out to them. If memory serves me correct, its a minuscule fraction of the BP pay out. But hey, you do it because you can. Ahhhh, the American hypocrisy. So long as it effects us, may the whole world look on at our rage. If it affects anyone else, possibly designate some media coverage.

What the **** man? Am I some sort of jerk for not mentioning every other disaster in the world when I mention something that's happened to Americans? And blame the Indian government for settling for such a small sum.

If you are finally coming to see that large faceless companies are not the works of good and charity

I never said they were, and never believed they were.

I have to admit, I am surprised at Crazed Rabbit.

Of course you are. You don't comprehend my positions at all. You don't use strawman arguments just for debate; you seem to believe other people are embodied by such strawman characterizations.

CR

[drone]

Is the fact that 16 Americans died more significant in comparison to to other industrial disasters. Tell me, did those responsible for Bhopal or anyone outside India care about the thousands which died and the thousands which still continue to die as a consequence? We should all be so lucky that we don't live in the third world, then people wouldn't even care if the death toll was being continuously counted. I mean no disrespect to those people who died on the rig, but lets be quite clear here, Tony Haywood wasn't directly responsible for their deaths. Untied Carbine India on the other hand, that old American company however probably does have blood on its hands.

Union Carbide India Limited was 49.1% owned by the Indian government and investors, 50.9% owned by Union Carbide. Has the US issued an arrest warrant for Haywood yet? Do we know that his corporate leadership and policies were responsible for Deepwater Horizon, any more than Warren Anderson's were for Bhopal? The Bhopal plant had a bad safety history, BP has a bad safety history.

You should feel glad the Louisiana fishermen will get a pay out, do you think those affected by Bhopal will see anything from the pathetic sum paid out to them. If memory serves me correct, its a minuscule fraction of the BP pay out. But hey, you do it because you can. Ahhhh, the American hypocrisy. So long as it effects us, may the whole world look on at our rage. If it affects anyone else, possibly designate some media coverage.

$470 million, paid in full in 1989. Adjust for inflation as necessary. The Indian government asked for more originally (~10x), but settled instead. Maybe they didn't want to sue themselves.

[tibilicus]

Your missing the point. What I was trying to illustrate that in terms of "disasters", this disaster isn't as significant as the press would have everyone believed. That the saga has dragged on so long is fuelled by a political issue, not an environmental one. On one of the news programmes here, one Louisiana environmentalist (don't have the source right now but I'm sure I could find it if some one requests it) even went so far as to add that the spill is not greatly worse than the Exxon Valdez oil spill, in terms of potential long term effects at least. You can disagree with this point if you like but the point is this isn't an environmental issue any more, its a political one. The current US administration is using to save its own hide and the mid-term elections mean its an easy issue for any US Congressmen to focus on to hide their own failings.

Oh, and in regards to Bhopal, do you think the Indian government really wanted to settle for a small sum, or do you think external pressure "persuaded" them? Does BP also deserve no credit for what has been an unprecedented clean up effort, never before seen?

[Furunculus]

I have to admit, I am surprised at Crazed Rabbit. It seems that he is forgetting that is speaking about his beloved Free Market. Talking about tying down corporations to regulation, accountability and restrictions. How can such a corporation be free to exploit, if it wasn't for that pesky red-tape and that thing called human rights? Bah humbug. Where is the praise of how the CEO of BP must an awesome individual because he gets a massive pay check (which should be tax-free, because it is well earned) and anyone who says otherwise is just a jealous, lazy, simpleton.

whole string of straw men there, but just so we're clear, i as a free-market enthusiast am absolutely in favour in rich people paying tax, just not a dispproportionate proportion more than any other tax-payer.

[drone]

Your missing the point. What I was trying to illustrate that in terms of "disasters", this disaster isn't as significant as the press would have everyone believed. That the saga has dragged on so long is fuelled by a political issue, not an environmental one.

The saga has drug on so long because, until July 15th, oil was continuing to pour into the Gulf. With Bhopal and Valdez, the spillage was stopped fairly quickly, DH had been spewing for almost 3 months. We have short attention spans, now that the well is capped I'm sure it will drop from the front pages soon. I hear Miss Lohan's fellow inmates don't like her, if she gets shivved we'll never see the underwater cams and tarballs on TV again. By the way, BP are expected to post a cool $4 billion in profit this quarter.

Oh, and in regards to Bhopal, do you think the Indian government really wanted to settle for a small sum, or do you think external pressure "persuaded" them?

The Indian government passed the Bhopal Gas Leak Act, which meant they were responsible for legal action against Union Carbide and UCIL. No private lawsuits or settlements could be brought. A US District court (backed by the Appeals Court) gave Indian courts jurisdiction over the case. UC/UCIL offered $370 million, India took it (with interest) after hemming and hawing about $3.3 billion. You would think the final result would be somewhere in the middle, that is what bargaining is all about. The Indian government failed it's people. What external pressure persuaded them otherwise?

[Husar]

I swear, sometimes it seems as though folks get worked up about how Americans aren't a special race of super-empathetic Zen saints who defy human nature to beam justice and perfection to every corner of the globe.

B...But Hollywood told me that's exactly what you are!?!

[Incongruous]

tibilicus, you seem to be offended that Americans pay more attention to things that happen to them than things that happen to other people. It sounds as though you think this is a special awfulness that afflicts Americans, rather than, you know, a constant of the human condition.

Let's try on a hypothetical for fun: Would you pay more attention to a fire you read about in Sri Lanka, or a fire that starts in your living room? Would you be a "hypocrite" for paying greater attention to the fire that burned your home?

I swear, sometimes it seems as though folks get worked up about how Americans aren't a special race of super-empathetic Zen saints who defy human nature to beam justice and perfection to every corner of the globe.

Yes, we're paying greater attention to the Gulf spill than we paid to Bhopal, although that also made massive headlines in its day. We're also paying more attention the to Gulf spill than we paid to the Belgian genocide in the Congo. Go figure.

When your nation's leader is declared leader of the free world and you pump out propaganda about how you wisah to bring freedom, justice and the American way to the world YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF UP.

[Vladimir]

When your nation's leader is declared leader of the free world and you pump out propaganda about how you wisah to bring freedom, justice and the American way to the world YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF UP.

We are the leader of the free world. The problem is with one's perception of what exactly that means.

Criticism is welcome but it's up to the individual to manage their own expectations.

[Husar]

When your nation's leader is declared leader of the free world and you pump out propaganda about how you wisah to bring freedom, justice and the American way to the world YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF UP.

Isn't that rape by deception?

[rory_20_uk]

We are the leader of the free world. The problem is with one's perception of what exactly that means.

Criticism is welcome but it's up to the individual to manage their own expectations.

So, you're saying that as long as "leader of the free world" can mean anything, what's the point of bothering with the epithet if anyone can use it?

If a more usual description of "leader of the free world" is used then as bopa the Magyar states, one is setting up their actions to be reviewed in this light.

"Happily" America tends to view their wants and needs the same as the world's and so whatever they do is by definition the right thing and anyone who says otherwise / provides evidence otherwise is, to put it mildly, wrong.

[rvg]

"Happily" America tends to view their wants and needs the same as the world's and so whatever they do is by definition the right thing and anyone who says otherwise / provides evidence otherwise is, to put it mildly, wrong.

Do you have a particular grievance with the U.S. that you would like to discuss?

[Incongruous]

We are the leader of the free world. The problem is with one's perception of what exactly that means.

Criticism is welcome but it's up to the individual to manage their own expectations.

There you go.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The saga has drug on so long because, until July 15th, oil was continuing to pour into the Gulf. With Bhopal and Valdez, the spillage was stopped fairly quickly, DH had been spewing for almost 3 months. We have short attention spans, now that the well is capped I'm sure it will drop from the front pages soon. I hear Miss Lohan's fellow inmates don't like her, if she gets shivved we'll never see the underwater cams and tarballs on TV again. By the way, BP are expected to post a cool $4 billion in profit this quarter. ...

Drone:

$4B represents a more or less normal quarterly profit for BP. GOOD quarters exceed $5B and Great quarters can slip past $6B. By contrast, they LOST $17B in the 2nd quarter of 2010. While their long-term financial prognosis is excellent, they have taken it on the teeth recently. Moroever, the USG is not done extracting its "pound of flesh" and will not be until sometime in 2011. This will sap their profitability by some margin for a while yet. As a stock, it would be a pretty good buy and hold choice right now.

[Beskar]

So, you're saying that as long as "leader of the free world" can mean anything, what's the point of bothering with the epithet if anyone can use it?

I like self-appointed titles, I am going to appoint myself "Lord Master of the Universe, Slayer of the Crazed Rabbits, Befriender of the Lous VI the Fat"

[drone]

$4B represents a more or less normal quarterly profit for BP. GOOD quarters exceed $5B and Great quarters can slip past $6B. By contrast, they LOST $17B in the 2nd quarter of 2010. While their long-term financial prognosis is excellent, they have taken it on the teeth recently. Moroever, the USG is not done extracting its "pound of flesh" and will not be until sometime in 2011. This will sap their profitability by some margin for a while yet. As a stock, it would be a pretty good buy and hold choice right now.

I wasn't sure how they would apply the penalty in the accounting when I posted. I see now that they made $5 billion profit excluding the $32 billion charge, which was up from last year. I see they took the $32billion pre-tax, sticking it to the man!

[Vladimir]

I like self-appointed titles, I am going to appoint myself "Lord Master of the Universe, Slayer of the Crazed Rabbits, Befriender of the Lous VI the Fat"

I prefer the title "Emperor." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton

[Husar]

We are the leader of the free world. The problem is with one's perception of what exactly that means.

Criticism is welcome but it's up to the individual to manage their own expectations.

You're not going to scare me, ever since Russia saved you from annihilation in WW2 you've just been jealous of their might.
It's only a matter of time until you succumb and import cheap military hardware from China which will be downgraded of course since you don't have a "special relationship".
Only a matter of time until Deutsche Bank has foreclosed enough houses to make NYC look like Rio de Janeiro as well.
And you call yourselves leaders of the free world? Pfah! Illusions!

[Myrddraal]

BP's Record-Breaking Loss

Troubled oil giant BP announced second-quarter earnings and at first glance, the numbers were not pretty. The company reported a loss of $17 billion for the second quarter after recording a charge of $32.2 billion related to costs related to the Gulf of Mexico oil spill. Digging a little deeper into the earnings report, however, we found that revenues were strong in the second quarter, climbing 34%.

BP reports record loss of $17.1 billion

As it posted a record $17.1-billion loss stemming from the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, British giant BP moved quickly to change management, propose the sale of up to $30 billion in assets and refocus the company on its core businesses.

[drone]

I see they took the $32billion pre-tax, sticking it to the man!

Senator demands probe of BP tax break

Two days after BP said it will write off the cost of the oil spill cleanup against its income taxes, a U.S. senator is calling for a Congressional probe into the company's tax plans.

Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla. sent a letter to the Senate Finance Committee Thursday, requesting a series of hearings on the matter and calling BP's plans to take a tax write-off "unacceptable."

On Tuesday, BP said it took a $32 billion charge in the second quarter for clean-up costs, resulting in tax savings of about $10 billion.

That's half the value of the $20 billion fund that BP set up to aid Gulf coast victims, Nelson pointed out.

BP announced the charge along with its second quarter earnings, saying the cleanup costs were the main reason for its $17 billion loss during the quarter.

BP spokesman Daren Beaudo, in an email to CNN, said the company is following U.S. tax code in taking the charge.

"Taxes are paid on profits and the Gulf of Mexico spill response costs have reduced BP's US profits -- so it follows that our tax obligations will be lower as well," he said.

In admonishing the oil giant for its tax plans, Nelson also pointed out that Goldman Sachs has said it will forgo any tax deduction for the $535 million it will pay in penalties in its settlement with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

[Vladimir]

Revived, just for this bit of humor:

In the 193-page report, the British company describes the incident as an accident that arose from a complex and interlinked series of mechanical failures, human judgments, engineering design, operational implementation and team interfaces.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39046088...ent/?GT1=43001

Or is is humour?

[Lemur]

We should just go back to calling them the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. That would irritate everybody.

[Beskar]

We should just go back to calling them the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. That would irritate everybody.

It would make the American news broadcasters say it was a British and Iranian terrorist plot against America.