What should the voting age be?

[Skullheadhq]

Also, democracy is not about making the best decisions. Suffrage is not about IQ or political insight.

Democracy is about granting a voice to all, about granting rights and dignity to the convictions of all citizens, smart or dumb, rich or poor. Not because all people all have smart convictions, but because everybody has convictions that are their own.


Democracy is not about installing a sane, or even workable form of government,. It is about human rights, about dignity, about equality, about giving everybody a stake in society. The origin of democracy is not the laboratory of the political scientist devising the perfect state. The origins are the loftiest enlightenment, humanist ideals about freedom and the nature of man. Universal suffrage is the final product of the ideals of liberty, equality and (pick one) A) fraternity, or B) hedonistic pursuit of individual happiness.

Then democracy is worthless, the state is not a tool to make dumb people feel good.

[HoreTore]

Then democracy is worthless, the state is not a tool to make dumb people feel good.

The state is the means to get people to work together.

And if one group feels left out, they will rebel, and we will stop working together. Democracy includes everyone, nobody feels left out and everyone works together.

Yes, I am aware of ETA etc, but that is exactly my point, the ETA are militant exactly because they do not feel that their voice is heard, they do not feel included.

[Skullheadhq]

The state is the means to get people to work together.

No, the state is the means to rule the country as good as possible, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, I am aware of ETA etc, but that is exactly my point, the ETA are militant exactly because they do not feel that their voice is heard, they do not feel included.

Spain is a democracy, your argument is invalid.

[HoreTore]

No, the state is the means to rule the country as good as possible, nothing more nothing less.

How can you rule something that isn't working?

And wouldn't you define "the country" to mean "the people"?

Spain is a democracy, your argument is invalid.

No, it proves my point perfectly. Spain is a democracy, yes, but not at a good enough level that the Basques feel included and heard. When they feel included and heard, they will lay down their weapons instantly. And the way to achieve that is through more democracy, not less.

[rory_20_uk]

No, it proves my point perfectly. Spain is a democracy, yes, but not at a good enough level that the Basques feel included and heard. When they feel included and heard, they will lay down their weapons instantly. And the way to achieve that is through more democracy, not less.

Rubbish. The Basques are over such a small area they'd be subsumed in democracy as part of Spain. They want a democracy of their little area.

[Skullheadhq]

How can you rule something that isn't working?

Are you implying people didn't work before democracy? People don't work for the government but for food, mortgage etc. etc.

And wouldn't you define "the country" to mean "the people"?

No.

[HoreTore]

Rubbish. The Basques are over such a small area they'd be subsumed in democracy as part of Spain. They want a democracy of their little area.

Their problem is that they don't feel that their voice is heard. How to make that voice heard, in their own democracy or within a spanish democracy is a secondary logistical problem. They say they want their own country, sure, but if they feel their voice is being heard as part of a spanish democracy, they will accept that.

Are you implying people didn't work before democracy? People don't work for the government but for food, mortgage etc. etc.

No.

No, you've misunderstood me completely.....And I'm not sure how to explain it any better, unfortunately.

[Skullheadhq]

Their problem is that they don't feel that their voice is heard. How to make that voice heard, in their own democracy or within a spanish democracy is a secondary logistical problem. They say they want their own country, sure, but if they feel their voice is being heard as part of a spanish democracy, they will accept that.

It's not that they're not being heard, they already have a great deal of autonomy but their only goal is independence from Spain, how much autonomy or democracy you'll give them doesn't really matter.