[Council of Villains] A State of Corruption [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

I actually came out of my pre-death conversation with Frozen pretty satisfied. It added up with what I saw re-reading the Rubicon game. Then a Hero was killed last night, and that made me suspect Frozen a lot more.
My opinion for all concerned is as follows: Meta-Ridley should kill Winston Hughes. If Winston's innocent, Beskar has some serious 'splaining to do.
Any other scum that aren't on Frozen's team should kill him. I'm pretty sure he is scum, and if he's innocent and you all kill him, then you're not killing other people, and that makes other people happy!

If Winston is innocent, Beskar dies. If he's not, Frozen dies.

That's what I figure is the best path forward.

[thefluffyone93]

Okay. If you were willingly watching it, then I'll shoot you for willingly watching Jersey Shore. If unwillingly, I'll shoot you to spare you the long, painful braindeath.

My sister forced me to watch it......it was horrible.
Especially Deena, the clone of Snooki!
KILL IT WITH FIRE.

[Double A]

Your sister should be put on war trials.

[thefluffyone93]

That show is a crime against humanity, indeed!
But hey, lets ignore my torment and go back on topic.
I'll just cry on Chaotix's shoulder tomorrow in school.

[Romanic]

We don't have the same definition of "proof", ATPG. What you gave us ranks more as feelings/intuitions, it doesn't prove anything, but it's an interesting point of view.

[thefluffyone93]

So in the end, someone who we have doubts about is gonna die, and we get to read another brilliant writeup by chaotix.
I say thats a win-win.

[Askthepizzaguy]

We don't have the same definition of "proof", ATPG. What you gave us ranks more as feelings/intuitions, it doesn't prove anything, but it's an interesting point of view.

I'm not saying let Beskar off the hook; but here is what I am saying. We have solid leads on mafia here, and we got Phazon on the ropes. I'd say it is a pretty safe bet Winston is Phazon or Samus-ian.

Autolycus' lead on Frozen is too tempting to ignore, I'd like Frozen to respond to such.

I admit that my definition of proof could be a little looser than most, but it boggles my mind that Beskar could be Samus mafia. Not based on what I've seen and what I know. I'll eat my pizza hut hat if I am wrong.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

sigh, beskar probably isn't scum with the day 1 claim. I don't really know what went on in private chat and his scumminess could just be to pushing a bad case.

but you should kill frozen. Why would winston scum make false claims to beskar?

[Cecil XIX]

I really can't tell if you're being serious here or not, so I'll assume that you're not.

If you actually want a response to this, try incorporating what I've already stated about myself and my intentions into your premise, rather than dismissing it out of hand. If you don't want me to dismiss your statements as rubbish, don't assume the same about mine.

He is serious, but it isn't for your consumption. He's quite correctly reminding the town not to trust you implicitly.

[Askthepizzaguy]

sigh, beskar probably isn't scum with the day 1 claim. I don't really know what went on in private chat and his scumminess could just be to pushing a bad case.

but you should kill frozen. Why would winston scum make false claims to beskar?

I'm willing to re-check my logic before going ahead with this. Right now I am 75/25, kill Winston over kill Frozen. Here's my stream-of-consciousness on this subject:

I was told something that makes me believe Frozen could be mistaken for mafia. But it's so vague it's not really affecting my decision. What is affecting my decision is Winston's behavior itself. This isn't even a philosophical past behavior argument, which many players will disagree with. This is more of a "there is zero reason not to say" argument.

1. Winston says he can copy a kill power from Beskar, and, in saying so, he says it is a power that hasn't been seen in the writeups before.
2. Winston doesn't say such a thing until I contact him and suggest that I'm going to kill him tonight unless he reveals what the deal is.
3. Beskar calls him on it, says to prove it. Just say which power.
4. Winston hesitates, doesn't say, not even privately.
5. Several people ask him to say publicly, he refuses.
6. I ask him on MSN to say, and he logs off.

There is zero reason not to say. If he has Beskar dead to rights, spill it. You've even got extra time. If Beskar is mafia (my analysis says no, and Winston is trying to bring down a town power role out of sheer spite) then for god's sake man, SAY WHY. I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to kill Frozen tonight if that's the consensus. He's not my top suspect for a reason, but i admit he is a suspect. I think Frozen should be given a chance to give his defense and explanation, since Auto can't be more specific, Frozen can. But Winston had his chance to out Beskar.

Remember, we're halfway through a night phase after an extended day phase. Winston waits this long to say Beskar is scummy because of PROTOWN reasons? And Beskar's being protected at night, so he's obviously not trying to maintain anonymity and vigilante kill him. My pepperoni-covered hind end that this has to do with legitimate pro-town reasons. I don't believe it for a second. But there's still time, I am still waiting for an explanation. Make it good, make it clear, make it make sense. I'm listening; prove me wrong. Just answer the question.

Why would Winston say such a thing as scum? I'll give you several examples.

If he's been nailed to the wall, he has nothing to lose. See: Hitman's gambit for what a cornered mafioso will do when he's caught in the early game. They will say and do anything, including what seems to be irrational, to mess with the town. If he's part of a greater mafia faction, like Samus team, he has every motive to try to drag down the night-protected Beskar. He can't murder Beskar at night, and so his only way to stop Beskar is with the lynch. It reeks of desperation and lack of specifics. It's also not what a townie would do in this situation; he would have and SHOULD have exposed Beskar if his claims were legitimate way back before there was even a go-nowhere tie involving three people, where we needed a suspect. No, he waits until after the tie, and still nothing. Waits until Dark Samus is lynched, and still nothing. This claim appears the instant I suggest he's about to die.

I call bull, and he has time to answer it too. Beskar's not going anywhere, he can be lynched tomorrow if Winston's tale is convincing enough.

He is serious, but it isn't for your consumption. He's quite correctly reminding the town not to trust you implicitly.

I doubt anyone in this game is trusting me implicitly. Even my biggest supporters say leave me alive for a couple rounds. That's a whole lot of trust I'm asking for.

[Cecil XIX]

I'm willing to re-check my logic before going ahead with this. Right now I am 75/25, kill Winston over kill Frozen. Here's my stream-of-consciousness on this subject:

I was told something that makes me believe Frozen could be mistaken for mafia. But it's so vague it's not really affecting my decision. What is affecting my decision is Winston's behavior itself. This isn't even a philosophical past behavior argument, which many players will disagree with. This is more of a "there is zero reason not to say" argument.

1. Winston says he can copy a kill power from Beskar, and, in saying so, he says it is a power that hasn't been seen in the writeups before.
2. Winston doesn't say such a thing until I contact him and suggest that I'm going to kill him tonight unless he reveals what the deal is.
3. Beskar calls him on it, says to prove it. Just say which power.
4. Winston hesitates, doesn't say, not even privately.
5. Several people ask him to say publicly, he refuses.
6. I ask him on MSN to say, and he logs off.

There is zero reason not to say. If he has Beskar dead to rights, spill it. You've even got extra time. If Beskar is mafia (my analysis says no, and Winston is trying to bring down a town power role out of sheer spite) then for god's sake man, SAY WHY. I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to kill Frozen tonight if that's the consensus. He's not my top suspect for a reason, but i admit he is a suspect. I think Frozen should be given a chance to give his defense and explanation, since Auto can't be more specific, Frozen can. But Winston had his chance to out Beskar.

Remember, we're halfway through a night phase after an extended day phase. Winston waits this long to say Beskar is scummy because of PROTOWN reasons? And Beskar's being protected at night, so he's obviously not trying to maintain anonymity and vigilante kill him. My pepperoni-covered hind end that this has to do with legitimate pro-town reasons. I don't believe it for a second. But there's still time, I am still waiting for an explanation. Make it good, make it clear, make it make sense. I'm listening; prove me wrong. Just answer the question.

Why would Winston say such a thing as scum? I'll give you several examples.

If he's been nailed to the wall, he has nothing to lose. See: Hitman's gambit for what a cornered mafioso will do when he's caught in the early game. They will say and do anything, including what seems to be irrational, to mess with the town. If he's part of a greater mafia faction, like Samus team, he has every motive to try to drag down the night-protected Beskar. He can't murder Beskar at night, and so his only way to stop Beskar is with the lynch. It reeks of desperation and lack of specifics. It's also not what a townie would do in this situation; he would have and SHOULD have exposed Beskar if his claims were legitimate way back before there was even a go-nowhere tie involving three people, where we needed a suspect. No, he waits until after the tie, and still nothing. Waits until Dark Samus is lynched, and still nothing. This claim appears the instant I suggest he's about to die.

I call bull, and he has time to answer it too. Beskar's not going anywhere, he can be lynched tomorrow if Winston's tale is convincing enough.




I doubt anyone in this game is trusting me implicitly. Even my biggest supporters say leave me alive for a couple rounds. That's a whole lot of trust I'm asking for.

Even the obvious can bear repeating. I also encourage Winston to dispute the six facts you listed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Even the obvious can bear repeating. I also encourage Winston to dispute the six facts you listed.

Consider this the seventh fact to dispute. Somewhere buried in my yakety-yak was a good point:

"It's also not what a townie would do in this situation; he would have and SHOULD have exposed Beskar if his claims were legitimate way back before there was even a go-nowhere tie involving three people, where we needed a suspect. No, he waits until after the tie, and still nothing. Waits until Dark Samus is lynched, and still nothing. This claim appears the instant I suggest he's about to die."

I want a logical response to this. I feel it's worth 10 times more than anything I've had to say about this game so far combined.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Did the death threat precede the whole thing?

Another bizarre thing is the "he doesn't name a power" as a trump card. If he fabricated all that he could make up a power name. He named his stealing ability, so, does he genuinely have a stealing ability?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Did the death threat precede the whole thing?

Yes, I can even tell you the time frame.

I sent Winston the following message, verbatim, yesterday at 5:04 AM my time.

Incoming.

Before I perform my kill on you tonight, mister Hughes, I will give you a chance to plead your case to me privately. Fluffy looks of scum, yes, but honestly... of those who tried to spare Renata's bacon at the last minute, I fear you the most. I also suspect your true motives the most. "You're too good at this game" and all that stuff was very flattering, but I truly feel it came from a place of deception and evil in your heart, friend Winston.

Why should I leave you alive? If you die, what is lost from the town? And, can you back up any claims you make? Further, if I do indeed decide to kill you, I must ask you to spill your data to either myself or Beskar. Whatever you know. If you are townie, I'd rather limit the damage.

Forgiveness please, but I do not trust you sir. If you are some super badass townie role, I will hold my fire and throw townie resources into backing up your claim. I'd also rather not see you get recruited, mister Hughes. Live as a townie, die as a townie.

Convince me, I'm listening and I have a day off

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The human memory is frail :(

I forgot he was on the pizza wagon, bah and the whole point of that was to catch scum on that wagon. Much like I ignored renata after putting her on my scum list and went after other people.

He should 100% be killed, beskar though your description of the affair was terrible. edit: no I just didn't read it carefully :p

[Askthepizzaguy]

Didn't see this edit

Another bizarre thing is the "he doesn't name a power" as a trump card. If he fabricated all that he could make up a power name. He named his stealing ability, so, does he genuinely have a stealing ability?

One thing that is bugging me is that if he is scum, then isn't he aware of other killing powers? He doesn't need to make up a name, just claim Beskar has it.

The trouble is when Beskar gets lynched and is revealed to not be what Winston says, then Winston dies. But it still removes Beskar, so that's satisfactory.

There's still a warning cloud of something is just not right here. I want further explanation, but in the meantime, pro-town Winston steals a killing power from Beskar, and doesn't tell anyone about it, at several key points in the past round. So I run through the logic-

Suppose he's recruitable and trying to become mafia. Okay, then he's got an anti-town agenda and a killing power and he's actively working against them in secret. Kind of hard not to say good-bye to that guy. The behavior adds up.

Suppose he's already mafia, that explains why he doesn't want to draw attention to himself but now he's already in the spotlight. He flinches and comes up with a way to incriminate Beskar so he will last longer, and make Beskar go away permanently. The behavior adds up.

Suppose he's townie and trying to fight for the good of the town. Now I run through the scenario, and I am baffled by certain decision points. The fact that only his death prompted his behavior is interesting but not totally conclusive- did he ever suggest Beskar needed to die? Even hint at it? It would imply that he might have been trying to get rid of Beskar without revealing.

I just want to see how there's a logical sequence of events coming from Winston starting the game as townie, all the way to our current situation. I'm missing pieces for that logical sequence to function properly. Maybe there's an explanation I don't know about.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

pevergreen would be one to look at if winston flips town. His "kill winston, if he flips town lynch beskar" post looks sketchy.

[pevergreen]

pevergreen would be one to look at if winston flips town. His "kill winston, if he flips town lynch beskar" post looks sketchy.

lay off me protecting my scumtown buddy.

I can see how he is playing it, if he is town. Not saying its a good thing...

[Winston Hughes]

This is all I have time for right now, but please see what pizza is trying to do here:

If Winston is innocent, Beskar dies. If he's not, Frozen dies.

That's what I figure is the best path forward.

He is desperate to kill me, because either way it gets him a free pass for tomorrow. When I show up innocent, the lynch turns on Beskar. If, on the other hand, I was to show up guilty, he's got another scalp to present to the mob.

Anyhow, since Beskar's lies are going to send me to my grave anyway, there seems no reason to let him off revealing his kill abilities before I die. As I've been saying all along, there is no townie reason for him to keep them secret.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is all I have time for right now, but please see what pizza is trying to do here:

He is desperate to kill me, because either way it gets him a free pass for tomorrow. When I show up innocent, the lynch turns on Beskar. If, on the other hand, I was to show up guilty, he's got another scalp to present to the mob.

Anyhow, since Beskar's lies are going to send me to my grave anyway, there seems no reason to let him off revealing his kill abilities before I die. As I've been saying all along, there is no townie reason for him to keep them secret.

There's no earthly reason you can't name the ability you copied from him.

Let's pretend for a moment you're right, and Beskar is scum. Well? What's the evidence. What's your proof. Where's your answer?

I wasn't desperate to kill you; you're the one who created this situation. If you hadn't acted so bizarrely, Frozen would be my target.

Geez, man, dig yourself a hole.

"If on the other hand I show up as guilty" what is with this hypothetical? I can't believe I blew right past this. Is this an admission of guilt?

[Winston Hughes]

There's no earthly reason you can't name the ability you copied from him.

What's the point? You're going to kill me anyway. Let Beskar reveal his kill abilities while I'm still alive to contradict him.

[Romanic]

@Winston:

I agree with ATPG, there's no reason why you won't name the killing ability that you stole from Beskar. If you are telling the truth, you caught him lying so keeping the ability a secret serves no purpose anymore.

Your refusal to name the killing ability just make me think that you don't have a good answer. I thought a scum would be able to name at least one or two, but then, I'm thinking that you could be the remaining Phazon and that you only know one, using dark energy (like we've seen Dark Samus use in the writeups). And it wouldn't work to name that ability, not really.

Anyway, if you're Town, I suggest that you give us more than your previous post. It ain't difficult really, just name the ability you stole from Beskar. Can't see any drawback to it, if you're Town.

[Romanic]

What's the point? You're going to kill me anyway. Let Beskar reveal his kill abilities while I'm still alive to contradict him.

Bah, ATPG ain't going to kill you if a majority of us think you are making sense. If he did, he would be lynched outright.

And what happened to defending yourself fairly, as a townie? It's atypical of you to resign like this, before the end of the day. I'd be expecting more from you.

EDIT: And Beskar said he has no kill ability, so technically he contradicted himself. Just name the ability, sheesh.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@ Winston

You should be able to also describe the icon that the kill uses. For example, if someone claims to have Fire Strike, I'd ask them to say what does the icon look like. If they're lying I will know.

You're acting like you're a cornered mafia with your back to the wall, and the more you focus on me and Beskar, the worse it gets. Yeah, I'm a SK, we know that already. Beskar is a strange cat, he deserves to be looked at, but we're not talking about those guys, we're talking about you and what seems to be your overflowing bag of scum slime. Either make with the proofs or die knowing you could have done more to save yourself.

And yeah, if everyone tells me not to kill Winston, I won't. The whole reason why I contacted Winston was because I was looking for reasons NOT to kill him. Like I did with Seon. I don't like killing randomly, I want to kill Samus. I want to kill mafia, short of that. If someone can reveal something that proves they were too busy elsewhere to be mafia/Samus, then I move on.

If you're townie, Winston, I'm disappointed by your reaction. You're performing a suicide by dragon by being uncooperative.

[pevergreen]

Yeah, now you're just being unreasonable.

If you're going to die, theres no reason to hide the information.

How in your right mind do you think Beskar would come along now and open up so you can contradict him.

Crazy talk.

[classical_hero]

Okay. If you were willingly watching it, then I'll shoot you for willingly watching Jersey Shore. If unwillingly, I'll shoot you to spare you the long, painful braindeath.

That was what I was thinking Why would anyone in their right mind watch that?

[Beskar]

There is nothing for me to say, justify or explain really. I pretty much said all I needed to say on this matter.

The human memory is frail :(

I forgot he was on the pizza wagon, bah and the whole point of that was to catch scum on that wagon. Much like I ignored renata after putting her on my scum list and went after other people.

He should 100% be killed, beskar though your description of the affair was terrible. edit: no I just didn't read it carefully :p

No problem Sasaki, it does come across as very weird, and you can imagine my annoyance when some one keeps sprouting untruthful nonsense to try to make you look bad, and cannot even form a decent case on it. It is a good thing that Winston is so poor at his attempt, everyone can see him for what he really is, a fraud.

If Winston dies and is a town anyway, then there is still no reason to lynch me. Since I am not aware of any survivalist town roles with an ability. Those who have contacted me have been Hero faction or SK (Pizza). Then, if he does end up appearing as a Hero faction, it doesn't absolve the fact he had the worse accusation in existence with no shred of evidence.

[TinCow]

If Winston dies and is a town anyway, then there is still no reason to lynch me.

You and Winston directly contradict each other, therefore it is almost certain that one of you is lying. If Winston dies and is town, then he would have no reason to lie and frame you. I expect you're in for an exciting day tomorrow.

[Rebel Jeb]

VOTE: ATPG

[classical_hero]

We are still at night.