Gay Parenting

[PanzerJaeger]

People who want to throw their ideology at other people can always find "scientists" who will say "Oh, it's true because my study says... ". But in real life there are gut feelings and intuitions and things that simply make sense. And people who disregard gut feelings, intuition, and common sense because the "scientific study of the week" says that wet is dry, tall is short, and fat is thin, are disregarding something very important: real life.

Sometimes real life is worth taking into consideration.

What do you think the studies are based on? They aren't studying lab rats, they're studying real families and real outcomes.

Since you're all about anecdote, personal experience, and common sense, do you know any same-sex families? You 'back up' what you say with parental experience, but unless you're raising a child with another man I'm not sure how your experience has much of anything to do with this subject.

I'm starting to think this is just one big troll. No one intelligent enough to operate a computer could be this intentionally asinine. The implications of using 'common sense' as a standard of proof are endless.

Blacks are obviously inferior to whites. Women are obviously inferior to men. Jews are obviously behind some evil conspiracy to enslave us all. Any backwoods, hick truism can be supported.

I'm starting to understand the dangers of anti-intellectualism. Reason, debate, studies, and research have no influence on gut feelings, down-home aphorisms, and good old common sense.

[Beirut]

Since you're all about anecdote, personal experience, and common sense, do you know any same-sex families? You 'back up' what you say with parental experience, but unless you're raising a child with another man I'm not sure how your experience has much of anything to do with this subject.

And yet you speak at length about the greatness of that tank in your avatar. Ever drive one? Ever drive any tank?

Ahhhhh... I see.

On the other hand, I have children.

I'm starting to think this is just one big troll. No one intelligent enough to operate a computer could be this intentionally asinine. The implications of using 'common sense' as a standard of proof are endless.

Actually, I see common sense falling by the wayside at an alarming rate based on the "science study flavour of the weak".

(Pardon the pun.)

Blacks are obviously inferior to whites. Women are obviously inferior to men. Jews are obviously behind some evil conspiracy to enslave us all. Any backwoods, hick truism can be supported.

Not really. Use some common sense, it will all come clear to you.

I'm starting to understand the dangers of anti-intellectualism. Reason, debate, studies, and research have no influence on gut feelings, down-home aphorisms, and good old common sense.

Yeah, yeah. Cry me a river about the dangers of anti-intellectualism.

What I have noticed about people who lean too far to the "intellectual" side is they often end up as really loud blowhards who drone on endlessly in coffee shops until you want to beat them to death with their own hardcover copy of The Republic.

Sometimes the best intellectualism comes from a farmer with a 500 word vocabulary who has never heard of Wittgenstein or Machiavelli but knows all about real life, raising a family, and putting in a hard day's work.

Don't be ashamed. We forgive you.

[PanzerJaeger]

And yet you speak at length about the greatness of that tank in your avatar. Ever drive one? Ever drive any tank?

Ahhhhh... I see.

I have not. What I have done is read detailed analyses of the vehicle and its specifications, including technical examinations of the suspension, armor, gunnery, etc., comparisons to other vehicles, operator testimonials, and after-action reports that all support (and indeed formed) my opinion.

You see, all the evidence points to it being a fine design, and I can back that claim up with innumerable published sources from experts in the field of Second World War AFVs.

On the other hand, I have children.

Your ability to insert your penis into your wife's vagina and pop some kids out does not make you an authority on the psychological and sociological implications of same-sex parenting.

Actually, I see common sense falling by the wayside at an alarming rate based on the "science study flavour of the weak".

We are not discussing a study. We are discussing a consensus built on multiple studies and years of peer-reviewed research.

Not really. Use some common sense, it will all come clear to you.

Racism, sexism, and anti-semitism are all intuitive, common sense beliefs in many parts of the world. Are you denying the validity of that common sense?

Yeah, yeah. Cry me a river about the dangers of anti-intellectualism.

What I have noticed about people who lean too far to the "intellectual" side is they often end up as really loud blowhards who drone on endlessly in coffee shops until you want to beat them to death with their own hardcover copy of The Republic.

Such caricatures often reflect the insecurities of the one making them.

Sometimes the best intellectualism comes from a farmer with a 500 word vocabulary who has never heard of Wittgenstein or Machiavelli but knows all about real life, raising a family, and putting in a hard day's work.

And sometimes, just sometimes, it doesn't.

If one of your children, God forbid, was diagnosed with a brain tumor, who would you prefer to take him or her to for treatment - a farmer with a 500 word vocabularly or a brain surgeon specializing in tumors?

[Beirut]

I have not. What I have done is read detailed analyses of the vehicle and its specifications, including technical examinations of the suspension, armor, gunnery, etc., comparisons to other vehicles, operator testimonials, and after-action reports that all support (and indeed formed) my opinion.

You see, all the evidence points to it being a fine design, and I can back that claim up with innumerable published sources from experts in the field of Second World War AFVs.

Fair enough.

Your ability to insert your penis into your wife's vagina and pop some kids out does not make you an authority on the psychological and sociological implications of same-sex parenting.

You better be at least 18 if you're going to talk like that, lad.

vagina: part of a woman's body that... ... ... OH MY GOD!

We are not discussing a study. We are discussing a consensus built on multiple studies and years of peer-reviewed research.

Yeah... I don't buy it. You can find studies that say chocolate ice cream makes a healthy breakfast, but I still know better. Common sense is common sense and common sense says mom and dad is better for a kid than dad and dad.

Racism, sexism, and anti-semitism are all intuitive, common sense beliefs in many parts of the world. Are you denying the validity of that common sense?

Racism isn't intuitive. It is learned.

Such caricatures often reflect the insecurities of the one making them.

Insecurities about what? Having to go to work and earn a living to pay for my kids' food instead of sitting in the coffee shop bantering about the ring of Gyges with the waitress?

Yeah, I feel terrible.

And sometimes, just sometimes, it doesn't.

Agreed.

If one of your children, God forbid, was diagnosed with a brain tumor, who would you prefer to take him or her to for treatment - a farmer with a 500 word vocabularly or a brain surgeon specializing in tumors?

For cancer you need a doctor. A proper doctor. For kids you need parents. And proper parents for a kid means a mother and a father.

[PanzerJaeger]

Common sense is common sense and common sense says mom and dad is better for a kid than dad and dad.

And my common sense indicates that parental outcomes are a function of parental inputs such as time, energy, and focus, not crass peripheral categorizations like gender.

That's the thing about common sense. It's not so common after all.

Racism isn't intuitive. It is learned.

Every belief is learned. Some learned beliefs stand up to logical scrutiny more than others.

Since science is inferior to anecdote in your world, I'll present my friend Anna as a counterpoint. She was abandoned by her biological parents in China because it is intuitive in many parts of that country that girls are virtually worthless. She was adopted by her real family, her two fathers, as an infant and never had a mother in her life. She's now been married to her husband for three years and is working on her masters in chemical engineering. She is also one of the most normal, well-adjusted people I know.

She might disagree with you on the intuitive nature of the innate superiority of a father and mother over a same sex couple.

Insecurities about what?

That scientific research may render your worldview outdated.

For cancer you need a doctor. A proper doctor. For kids you need parents. And proper parents for a kid means a mother and a father.

So you are, at least on some level, willing to accept that an expert may know more about a subject than a non-expert, and that in some situations expert knowledge may be superior to intuition?

[Beirut]

And my common sense indicates that parental outcomes are a function of parental inputs such as time, energy, and focus, not crass peripheral categorizations like gender.

"Crass peripheral categorizations like gender"? Um... you ever kissed a girl?

But let us all go tell our mothers that their input into our upbringing was nothing that could not be replaced by your garden variety homosexual man. And let us tell our fathers that any lesbian of the day could supplant him in his role as "dad".

Oh my...

That's the thing about common sense. It's not so common after all.

Well, you take your science study of the week and I'll stick with my common sense about mom and dad.

Every belief is learned. Some learned beliefs stand up to logical scrutiny more than others.

Like the learned belief that kids should have moms and dads.

Since science is inferior to anecdote in your world, I'll present my friend Anna as a counterpoint.

Hi Anna.

She was abandoned by her biological parents in China because it is intuitive in many parts of that country that girls are virtually worthless. She was adopted by her real family, her two fathers, as an infant and never had a mother in her life. She's now been married to her husband for three years and is working on her masters in chemical engineering. She is also one of the most normal, well-adjusted people I know.

Good for her. I'm happy she's happy.

She might disagree with you on the intuitive nature of the innate superiority of a father and mother over a same sex couple.

Indeed she might.

That scientific research may render your worldview outdated.

Um... no.

So you are, at least on some level, willing to accept that an expert may know more about a subject than a non-expert, and that in some situations expert knowledge may be superior to intuition?

Obviously, but not in this case.

Why not have all the babies be test tube babies born in vats, IV fed, and "educated" by electrodes for the first three-years of their life? I'll bet you dollars to donuts there's a study out there that says those kids would be just fine. Hell, they might even be better that the "normal" kids. While they are in their vat-cribs, they could be given special drugs to influence their IQ and mood and physique. We could have 100% happy, smart, healthy kids, who all live to be 110. Wouldn't that be great!

No. It wouldn't. It's - not - normal.

[ajaxfetish]

But let us all go tell our mothers that their input into our upbringing was nothing that could not be replaced by your garden variety homosexual man. And let us tell our fathers that any lesbian of the day could supplant him in his role as "dad".

Surely you can make your point without a disingenuous appeal to emotion. No, a garden variety homosexual man could never replace the input I've had from my mother. Neither could a garden variety heterosexual woman. And a different heterosexual man could no more replace my father than a lesbian woman could. My parents have both had a profoundly individual influence upon me, that is the result of the sum total of who they are, not just their genders and sexual orientations.

Go tell a child raised by a gay couple that the input into their lives that one of their fathers had was nothing that could not be replaced by your garden variety heterosexual woman. I don't buy it.

Ajax