Possible ban on halal/kosher meat in the Neds

[Fragony]

Without applying sedation first that is, orthodox jews and to a lesser extend muslims are crying foul over this complete with the inevitable Godwins.

We have been on this road before but would like to know what you think anyway as it's quite the discussion here. Halal and kosher isn't cruel if the butcher is able, but if the animal isn't properly cut it will suffer for quite some time as the job won't be finished because imaginary friends say it has to be one single cut, it can last for minutes and the animal is fully concious. I have zero patience with their religion personally, they can move to Israel or Muslimstan if it's that big a deal, or import it.

[rory_20_uk]

I think making it illegal is a bad idea, as it is not a fight worth fighting. Regulating the practice with heavy fines for breaches is OK.

[Fragony]

I think making it illegal is a bad idea, as it is not a fight worth fighting. Regulating the practice with heavy fines for breaches is OK.

What breaches, if the animal is sedated it's no longer kosher/halal, same with a second cut, so it's basicly a full ban. I'm ok with that I don't find their spicelaws as important as a quik and painless death for the animal. I know muslims to be flexible with this and most butchers will cut twice, but orthodox jews are united in pitytude. Screw that, get with it or wail at your wall.

[Skullheadhq]

What breaches, if the animal is sedated it's no longer kosher/halal, same with a second cut, so it's basicly a full ban. I'm ok with that I don't find their spicelaws as important as a quik and painless death for the animal. I know muslims to be flexible with this and most butchers will cut twice, but orthodox jews are united in pitytude. Screw that, get with it or wail at your wall.

Says the person who has his proclamation of support to Israel in his signature

[Fragony]

Says the person who has his proclamation of support to Israel in his signature

I indiscriminately discriminate

[Cute Wolf]

hey, does this meant I can properly sedate a dog and slaughter it for eating afterwards when I come to Netherlands? or some Cats? I'd love to take part time job on Dog control team that way :D

/sarcasm

what's the point of banning halal/kosher foods because they're cruel? if you think eating animals is cruel, go vegan then :D

[Fragony]

hey, does this meant I can properly sedate a dog and slaughter it for eating afterwards when I come to Netherlands? or some Cats? I'd love to take part time job on Dog control team that way :D

/sarcasm

what's the point of banning halal/kosher foods because they're cruel? if you think eating animals is cruel, go vegan then :D

Meat is good. But making ammends to people with imaginary friends is not, if the animal suffers because they don't want to finish it of, well no

[Cute Wolf]

Meat is good. But making ammends to people with imaginary friends is not, if the animal suffers because they don't want to finish it of, well no

If you have some experience with properly slaughtering animals via simple cut to the neck, you can see it yourself that a the animals in question doesn't suffer much. A sharp knife cut their neck, and quickly drain their blood, will result in death very quickly, about 3 minutes or 4, typically. And if you eat sedated animals, you'll also eat the chemichal compounds, especially if the sedative is halogen-derivative, that'll be harmful to human body.

BTW: Snapping the neck of Chickens typically result in instant death, if you can do that for cows, however...

[Fragony]

If you have some experience with properly slaughtering animals via simple cut to the neck, you can see it yourself that a the animals in question doesn't suffer much. A sharp knife cut their neck, and quickly drain their blood, will result in death very quickly, about 3 minutes or 4, typically. And if you eat sedated animals, you'll also eat the chemichal compounds, especially if the sedative is halogen-derivative, that'll be harmful to human body.

BTW: Snapping the neck of Chickens typically result in instant death, if you can do that for cows, however...

I know, but point is is that it doesn't always go well, and gawd forbids a second cut, it takes a while before it's dead when it goes wrong and that is simply unnecessary. Scew their spicelaws

edit: for you shocked by 3 a 4 minutes that is before meat is drained, not the actual death

[Cute Wolf]

I know, but point is is that it doesn't always go well, and gawd forbids a second cut, it takes a while before it's dead when it goes wrong and that is simply unnecessary. Scew their spicelaws

well, who say God forbids a second cut? at least for Muslims, I know that they can took another cut if the animal's blood doesn't drain much faster, or the animals doesn't die too long. I personally think most of those who think slaughtering animal is cruelty is persons who never do proper slaughter themselves. Just try it yourself, buy a Chicken, prepares a big bowl full of boiling water, and then cut it's neck near the head. Drain the blood, and then put the chicken on boiling water to scrap the feathers. If you want to eat the blood however, you can optionally put the blood- spurting neck on a bowl (both muslims and jews doesn't ate blood, Chinese did)

[Centurion1]

the funny thing is slaughtehouses dont mess up. its a sledge to the head a gunshot or a giant blade. often delivered by a machine so yeah..........

[Subotan]

It's heartwarming to see Jews and Muslims united against a common enemy

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's heartwarming to see Jews and Muslims united against a common enemy

Defenseless sheep and cows?

[Subotan]

Hey, I didn't comment on whether I thought that the common enemy was one they should be fighting.

In all seriousness though, this is the kind of thing which the secular government will put its foot down on in the name of a humane, tolerant society (Tolerant to animals, that is), backwards-looking people will whine and complain about it, before forgetting all about within five years time. Sacrificing a pig in the Temple, this is not.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think making it illegal is a bad idea, as it is not a fight worth fighting. Regulating the practice with heavy fines for breaches is OK.

It's actually not about religious practice/beliefs, not even about halal/kosher food. It is simply about requiring the animal be sedated before slaughtered. There would be no problem if people choose to have the animals slaughtered in, say, Germany and import the meat back to the Netherlands.

[HoreTore]

Bah!

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights.

Let's ban hunting while we're at it, should we? Not only are none of the animals sedated when killed, 10% of them are only wounded, and run off to bleed to death. Utter nonsense. Animals are food, nothing else.

the funny thing is slaughtehouses dont mess up.

Are you serious or being sarcastic?

[jabarto]

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights.

Oh stow it. Respect for sentient life is a Big Deal whether religion is involved or not.

I won't go into too much detail on the religious aspect of this. Suffice it to say that I take grave issue with a lot of Jewish traditions and the conditions of kosher slaughterhouses is pretty high up there.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Bah!

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights.

Those animal welfare activist types (with whom this law originated, incidentally) are all anti Semites in disguise!!!

[HoreTore]

Oh stow it. Respect for sentient life is a Big Deal whether religion is involved or not.

I won't go into too much detail on the religious aspect of this. Suffice it to say that I take grave issue with a lot of Jewish traditions and the conditions of kosher slaughterhouses is pretty high up there.

......And yet you still eat meat. I really cannot see much difference between kosher slaughter and the way we others slaughter animals. Animals are goaded with electroshocks, sedation often fails resulting in animals scolded alive, the transportation is absolute cruelty(this one is the worst by far IMO), we wound animals while hunting, etc etc.

Still, I eat meat. Since I put up with the cruelty we treat our animals with, I see no reason why kosher meat should be banned.





But then again, I don't hate the joooooooooooooooooos.

[Hax]

What should be mentioned is that, me being a vegetarian, I haven't eaten meat for quite some time now.

I was only wondering to what extent we're aware of whether animals suffer more (can we even apply human concept such as "suffering", which clearly implies some sort of consciousness on animals?) or less regarding on the way they are killed. I've read that animals suffer less when they are slaughtered in the kosher/halal fashion because their spinal cords are immediately cut, thus reducing the connection of the brain with the rest of the organs. Then again, I've read conflicting reports that suggest animals suffer more, because they are fully conscious of their agony until all blood has seeped away.

Can't we first get any scientific consensus on this all before talking about legal or ethical implications?

[jabarto]

Oh forget it. It's not worth the infraction.

[Centurion1]

Bah!

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights.

Let's ban hunting while we're at it, should we? Not only are none of the animals sedated when killed, 10% of them are only wounded, and run off to bleed to death. Utter nonsense. Animals are food, nothing else.



Are you serious or being sarcastic?

90% sarcasm. Though it is true that the animal usually instantaneously dies especially in well run automated factories

Edit: though 90% of the factories aren't efficient and well run.

Edit: maybe a 100%

[Incongruous]

This is absurd, they're just animals, why can't one decide how one kills an animal (torturing is not killing, slitting a throat is not torture it's killing)? It's an impairment of one's free use of liberty without good cause, protecting the rights of farm animals at the cost of curbing those of a group of humans is in this case wrong.

[Fragony]

Don't see how it's curbing anyone's rights, they will still be free to import it. If they want kosher and halal they can have it, just not from the Netherlands

[jabarto]

This is absurd, they're just animals, why can't one decide how one kills an animal (torturing is not killing, slitting a throat is not torture it's killing)? It's an impairment of one's free use of liberty without good cause, protecting the rights of farm animals at the cost of curbing those of a group of humans is in this case wrong.

It is a true testament to human narrowmindedness that even in the year 2011 we hold the anachronisms of Bronze-age savages in higher regard than the respectful treatment of other beings. Then again, I'm apparently an anti-Semite because I value compassion over tradition, so what would I know?

[Fragony]

It is a true testament to human narrowmindedness that even in the year 2011 we hold the anachronisms of Bronze-age savages in higher regard than the respectful treatment of other beings. Then again, I'm apparently an anti-Semite because I value compassion over tradition, so what would I know?

AND an islamphobe. But yeah.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What about freedom of religion? I thought the continentals loved 'positive freedoms'...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yeah you're still free to believe in whatever thing you like and segregate yourself from the rest accordingly. You just are not allowed to slaughter animals in whatever way you like. Perspective.

[Strike For The South]

Why poke the hornets nest if you don't have to?

[naut]

Why poke the hornets nest if you don't have to?

For the adrenaline rush.