Euro Area

[Fragony]

Yeah, change the subject.

AII

I don't 'Eén munt zonder vergaande economische, fiscale en politieke integratie is geen houdbaar recept gebleken.'

for non Dutchies 'one coin without excessive economical, fiscal, and political integration, has turned out to be ineffective'

[gaelic cowboy]

Sarkozy, Merkel want eurozone government

The leaders of France and Germany have called for the formation of a common eurozone government after a meeting in Paris on the debt crisis.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy said the proposals would ask eurozone countries to put limits on their budget deficits in their constitutions by summer 2012.
The two leaders are also proposing a new collective economic 'government' for the eurozone consisting of heads of state or government that would meet at least twice a year.
They are proposing that this body would be led by the Herman Van Rompuy.
They also proposed a new tax on financial transactions.
Ms Merkel said eurobonds were not answer to the debt crisis 'today'.
Mr Sarkozy said France and Germany were at one on the issue, but he said eurobonds could be imagined, but only at the end of a process of euro zone integration.
Most European stock markets ended down this evening ahead as investors awaited the outcome of the meeting Mr Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel.
Shares were affected earlier by weak growth figures from Germany and the eurozone, but gained back some ground this afternoon after better than expected US industrial production figures.
London's FTSE edged up 0.1% to finish at 5,358. In Frankfurt, the main DAX index fell 0.5% to 5,995, while in Paris the CAC dropped 0.3% to 3,231.
Last week's decision by the European Central Bank to buy €22bn worth of bonds in heavily indebted nations has calmed markets, however it is seen by many as a temporary fix.

Debt limits dont fix the problem we have NOW what are these people at they decided they needed another meeting twice a year in which they will do as little then as now.

[Adrian II]

Sarkozy, Merkel want eurozone government

Oh yes, let us create more undemocratic mechanisms. Be my guest if you want rocks flying through windows in 24 capitals.

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But it is going to take decades to undo the damage that these knuckleheads have done in just two years time.

AII

[Vladimir]

Maybe you should establish a Department of Debt. It could be modeled on our Department of Jobs.

[gaelic cowboy]

Oh yes, let us create more undemocratic mechanisms. Be my guest if you want rocks flying through windows in 24 capitals.

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But it is going to take decades to undo the damage that these knuckleheads have done in just two years time.

AII

The problem as they see it is that governments made mistakes ergo we need a bigger government. (which we have no say in hiring or firing)

They better have some grand plan for avoiding a referendum in Ireland on this because I'm most certainly already in the NO camp.

[Adrian II]

They don't 'do' grand plans anymore, they do whatever 'the markets' tell them.

AII

[gaelic cowboy]

They don't 'do' grand plans anymore, they do whatever 'the markets' tell them.

AII

Then those market types will be mad as hell there are no Eurobonds.

All they did was basically set up another two summits to go to.

Oh and I nearly forgot debt ceilings never cause any crisis right hey wait a minute United States debt ceiling crisis

It will never pass here because they cant change the constitution without referendum and anyone who tries to get one passed will be soundly kicked out the gate.

So one of the key pieces of this agreement will be unworkable for Ireland, logically we will prob be out of the Euro within a few years.

not before the bailout ends naturally due to the ECB wanting there money back an all

[Fragony]

Does it help at least a tiny little bit if I understand why you are so angry

[gaelic cowboy]

Does it help at least a tiny little bit if I understand why you are so angry

It's ok Frag I repented ages ago on the europhillia

It's been No for a while now

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh yes, let us create more undemocratic mechanisms. Be my guest if you want rocks flying through windows in 24 capitals.

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But it is going to take decades to undo the damage that these knuckleheads have done in just two years time.

AII

I must say, I am starting to have very French thoughts about some politicians

Can I just point out: UK Conservatives were widely derided for being anti-Euro and decoupling from the Cntre-Right-pro-Euro Bloc in the EU Parliament.

This Emperor never had any clothes, but despite lots of people saying so no one listened.

[gaelic cowboy]

I must say, I am starting to have very French thoughts about some politicians

Can I just point out: UK Conservatives were widely derided for being anti-Euro and decoupling from the Cntre-Right-pro-Euro Bloc in the EU Parliament.

This Emperor never had any clothes, but despite lots of people saying so no one listened.

I'm having very Irish thoughts on this basically Michael Collins 2.0 I cannot see people here letting this go lightly.

We have not had any disturbances here at all however this could be a very dangerous spark in my country.

The more I think on it the more I think it is a way to engineer a some kind of new FrancMark without the PIGS.(if it is that would actually solve it)

And to think I thought Jim Corr was mad

[Furunculus]

It's ok Frag I repented ages ago on the europhillia

It's been No for a while now

i am actually cheering on osborne with his calls for fiscal federalism within the eurozone because it is the one great hope that we will be offered an EEA/EU or EEA/EFTA referendum question.

so much of politics of positioning based on events and they have spent a long 'positioning' but at last the event is here, now!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm having very Irish thoughts on this basically Michael Collins 2.0 I cannot see people here letting this go lightly.

We have not had any disturbances here at all however this could be a very dangerous spark in my country.

The more I think on it the more I think it is a way to engineer a some kind of new FrancMark without the PIGS.(if it is that would actually solve it)

And to think I thought Jim Corr was mad

Ireland is particularly screwed here - other than Euro-integration her best option is good old Blighty, either one can go over very badly politically.

[gaelic cowboy]

Ireland is particularly screwed here - other than Euro-integration her best option is good old Blighty, either one can go over very badly politically.

Personally I have no problem pegging to sterling, we had that before anyway our economy is hyper-plugged into UK. Just cos we track sterling does not keep me up at night we still get to decide to peg a currency, I don't see any need to go back to the UK neither side wants it anyway.

My problem is purely emotional in reality I will not vote for this

It's pretty obvious we will have to be eased out of the euro in order to achieve this plan, after the ecb gets its money back as it always wanted.

They cannot pass a referendum here now not a hope in hell, no matter how much they badger or how much debt they hold we still have to vote.

Since the plan calls for constitutional debt limits I suspect it is a way to remove Ireland from the euro, and if by some miracle we vote yes they still have what they want.

Personally I want out of the Euro we can all truthfully say it is no good for Ireland and I suspect that is what they really want.

[InsaneApache]

It's ok Frag I repented ages ago on the europhillia

It's been No for a while now

As I did.

Now when will people learn that the politicians are the problem. Not the answer.

[Furunculus]

slightly after those of us who are of sufficiently dyspeptic a nature to remain sceptical to the political designs of jejune euro enthusiasts?

[gaelic cowboy]

slightly after those of us who are of sufficiently dyspeptic a nature to remain sceptical to the political designs of jejune euro enthusiasts?

Ireland is going to change overnight in to the eurosceptic camp, trust me it's practically guaranteed.

Even when we voted against lisbon people still had a fairly good view of the EU but not anymore they dont though, we actually have a higher opinion of the IMF now than EU

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Personally I have no problem pegging to sterling, we had that before anyway our economy is hyper-plugged into UK. Just cos we track sterling does not keep me up at night we still get to decide to peg a currency, I don't see any need to go back to the UK neither side wants it anyway.

My problem is purely emotional in reality I will not vote for this

It's pretty obvious we will have to be eased out of the euro in order to achieve this plan, after the ecb gets its money back as it always wanted.

They cannot pass a referendum here now not a hope in hell, no matter how much they badger or how much debt they hold we still have to vote.

Since the plan calls for constitutional debt limits I suspect it is a way to remove Ireland from the euro, and if by some miracle we vote yes they still have what they want.

Personally I want out of the Euro we can all truthfully say it is no good for Ireland and I suspect that is what they really want.

Pegging into Sterling won't help you very well, it'll be like pegging into the Euro, unless you get either cheap credit or have a transfer Union.

Ireland can accept Euro oversight, de-couple and devalue, or snuggle up to the UK.

So... de-couple and devalue really.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As I did.

Now when will people learn that the politicians are the problem. Not the answer.

Our politicians are a refelction of us. Cameron hiring Andy Coulson because he was a Murdoch flunky is a case in point.

Who gives Murdoch power, after all?

[gaelic cowboy]

Pegging into Sterling won't help you very well, it'll be like pegging into the Euro, unless you get either cheap credit or have a transfer Union.

Ireland can accept Euro oversight, de-couple and devalue, or snuggle up to the UK.

So... de-couple and devalue really.

When we had our own currency we had to track sterling and the dollar due to our trade patterns, the reality is we still should be doing that today.
Basically we were fine before whats wrong with admitting a mistake and starting over, the level of disconnect I hear all the time about how you cannot go back blah blah is just daft.

I not stupid enough to think it would be painless to leave the Euro, but I have enough brains to cop this cannot pass and therefore it is another crisis for the Euro.

Do they really want to have deal with an Irish no vote again I doubt it, were heading for the door bye and it's what europe wants

[InsaneApache]

You can't vote the EU buggers out, That's the crux of the problem.

[gaelic cowboy]

You can't vote the EU buggers out, That's the crux of the problem.

Thats what I will say when someone tries to blacken me with eurosceptism or extreme republicanism or whatever ism you like.

Sure Irish politicians make mistakes but at least I can get rid of them, I never voted for Mr Rumpy Pumpy our new potential overlord.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

When we had our own currency we had to track sterling and the dollar due to our trade patterns, the reality is we still should be doing that today.
Basically we were fine before whats wrong with admitting a mistake and starting over, the level of disconnect I hear all the time about how you cannot go back blah blah is just daft.

I not stupid enough to think it would be painless to leave the Euro, but I have enough brains to cop this cannot pass and therefore it is another crisis for the Euro.

Do they really want to have deal with an Irish no vote again I doubt it, were heading for the door bye and it's what europe wants

Oh, quite. Ireland would be best to leave - as would Greece and Portugal. The fact that a controlled breakup of the EU has not already begun is, frankly, unintelligable. What we are going to get is a forced breakup instead, or a Fourth Riech.

[gaelic cowboy]

Oh, quite. Ireland would be best to leave - as would Greece and Portugal. The fact that a controlled breakup of the EU has not already begun is, frankly, unintelligable. What we are going to get is a forced breakup instead, or a Fourth Riech.

It's what they want in reality there just incapable of admitting it.

I suspect they want us to vote no in fact the crisis would require some kind of exit plan for a country allowing Germany to decouple Ireland, Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy and whoever else wants the door.

[Fragony]

As I did.

Now when will people learn that the politicians are the problem. Not the answer.

Ya, if I remember correctly teh swamp and teh frogs crearly said NO. Wrong answer I guess

[Papewaio]

You can't vote the EU buggers out, That's the crux of the problem.

You can't vote the highest tier directly in either can you?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But Sarkozy and Merkel ARE doing the right thing. They are opting for the bold move forward.

We are currently witnessing the long known problems that a common currency faces without common economic policy. The obvious way forward then is to have more common economic policy.

[Furunculus]

But Sarkozy and Merkel ARE doing the right thing. They are opting for the bold move forward.

We are currently witnessing the long known problems that a common currency faces without common economic policy. The obvious way forward then is to have more common economic policy.

doing the right thing would be either:
increasing the EFSF
or:
introducing eurobonds

what they achieved instead was an economic stable-door:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...e-concord.html
at the same time as:
turning eurozones periphery into satrapies of berlin

[Tellos Athenaios]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the monetary union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary. However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support. This is shot down before it even started, and as Adrian says it will take a lot of time to repair the damage these two just did, and have done for the past two years.

[Fragony]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the fiscal union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary. However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support. This is shot down before it even started, and as Adrian says it will take a lot of time to repair the damage these two just did, and have done for the past two years.

The damage that that bloated salsaboy and that Flemish ferret have done is pretty much beyond repair, economy is trust and trust means accountability and democracy. The EU will collapse and kthxbye.