Euro Area

[Tellos Athenaios]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the monetary union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary. However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support. This is shot down before it even started, and as Adrian says it will take a lot of time to repair the damage these two just did, and have done for the past two years.

[Fragony]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the fiscal union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary. However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support. This is shot down before it even started, and as Adrian says it will take a lot of time to repair the damage these two just did, and have done for the past two years.

The damage that that bloated salsaboy and that Flemish ferret have done is pretty much beyond repair, economy is trust and trust means accountability and democracy. The EU will collapse and kthxbye.

[Furunculus]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the monetary union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary.

fiscal and political union were always an inevitable necessity of a monetary union, there are no two ways about it, which is why we stayed out. who is going to tell the eurozone electorates that their nations are no longer states, and that the policy and spending regime they live under will now be directed towards the 'good' of the whole, and not their family and friends?

if consent is not sought, nor mandate achieved, then the eurozone has just ceased to be a representative democracy, remaining merely a 'democracy'.

remember those europhiles who rubbished the notion that monetary union would lead to political union.
"what fearful and small-minded chaps you are, to take fright at such will-o-wisps!" they scoffed.
who here was one of those?

However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support.

at least they had some credibility to lose, the EP doesn't even have legitimacy owing to the lack of representation and accountability!

[Tellos Athenaios]

at least they had some credibility to lose, the EP doesn't even have legitimacy owing to the lack of representation and accountability!

That would be the same EP whose members were elected by their respective constituency with the explicit mandate of debating and deciding on the EU laws? As opposed to Sarkozy and Merkel whom might have authority in exactly 2 out of 27 such constituencies?

If your MEP is effectively appointed by your country go complain to Whitehall. Here, there are actual elections for what muppets we send to Brussels.

EDIT: If your point is simply that the EP is kind of invisible to the public eye then I guess so. One reason for that would be precisely such unilateral action on the part of various heads of state or their ministers. Since we're discussing the “right thing”, it's precisely the EP which we need to strengthen if we want accountability and democracy in the long term. Representatives of vaguely defined national interests is not “accountable” nor “democratic”, not when it comes to European-wide issues. Of course if you don't bother to vote when the elections are, that's your attitude to blame. You don't get excellence if you fail to pay attention.

[Furunculus]

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

[Fragony]

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

Indeed. None at all. Whatsoever.

[Kagemusha]

I dont agree with either side concerning Euro. No we do not need further political integration for Euro to work and no we do not have the need to dissolve euro. What we need to do is something anyone pass their puberty should understand. Obey the rules of Euro or prepare to be kicked out.

While other EU countries are dumbing money to Greece with no guarantees.Our government made a nice deal on tuesday:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135268607718

Finland is guaranteeing atleast EUR 1.4 billion of Greek debt in exchance Greece is paying atleast half a billion to Finland as cash guarantees.Then Finland will invest that half a billion back to low-risk state bonds, so if Greece cant pay back their debt Finland will get its own money back, if they do.We make profit. I guess we are bit evil. :P

[Adrian II]

I dont agree with either side concerning Euro. No we do not need further political integration for Euro to work and no we do not have the need to dissolve euro. What we need to do is something anyone pass their puberty should understand. Obey the rules of Euro or prepare to be kicked out.

While other EU countries are dumbing money to Greece with no guarantees.Our government made a nice deal on tuesday:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135268607718

Finland is guaranteeing atleast EUR 1.4 billion of Greek debt in exchance Greece is paying atleast half a billion to Finland as cash guarantees.Then Finland will invest that half a billion back to low-risk state bonds, so if Greece cant pay back their debt Finland will get its own money back, if they do.We make profit. I guess we are bit evil. :P

All countries lending money to Greece are making a profit. We sell Dutch bonds on the market at 2,5 % and use the money to buy Greek bonds at 9% or something in that order.

AII

[Tellos Athenaios]

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

Which is the problem to solve, rather than reason to discount it because you can't be bothered to read what you elect someone for. In other words: either you don't want the hassle of democracy and accountability on the part of the EP to the British public (among others) and would to leave (all) such decision making powers in the hands of your MP; or you want genuine democracy and accountability in which case the problem of “cannot be bothered to care” is quite frankly the real problem, and your complaints about lack of accountability or democracy really not their fault but your own of your own making.

For a flawed comparison: if all of the London rioters couldn't be bothered to care about property or people put in danger by their actions, that doesn't mean that the rest of the British public should accommodate this behaviour. The London rioters will be forced to pay the price for their irresponsibility, the same way yours already costs you when the German and French heads of state can effectively dictate the EU because for so long nobody could be bothered.

[Furunculus]

the problem of “cannot be bothered to care” is quite frankly the real problem, and your complaints about lack of accountability or democracy really not their fault but your own of your own making.

for sure.

but when i am joined by the vast majority of my countrymen in the toxic mixture of apathy and contempt it is no longer my problem, it is the EU's problem.

because people don't consider the EU representative, and thus do not consent for it to govern in my name, people are not interested in its dealings.
because people are uninterested in the EU's dealing those dealings pass by with scrutiny, and thus it remains unaccountable.

i have a government that i recognise as both representative and accountable, it sits in westminster, what use do i have for a federal government in brussels?

end of.