Euro Area

[Papewaio]

So can Britain then fully devolve into the UUK... The Un-United Kingdoms of England, Northern Island, Scotland, Wales & The Manx.

Surely given your argument it would be best if Leeds and Manchestor form their own city states to look after their own demo...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So can Britain then fully devolve into the UUK... The Un-United Kingdoms of England, Northern Island, Scotland, Wales & The Manx.

Surely given your argument it would be best if Leeds and Manchestor form their own city states to look after their own demo...

Well, no, because we would use force to restore order, the EU cannot do the same.

German Leopads will not roll into Athens to enforce austerityy.

[Furunculus]

those plucky finns are demonstrating the results of precisely that lack of shared familial sentiment:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...t-support.html

it's all very well to put your time and effort into helping out the families persistently drunk uncle, but would you put the same time and effort into getting someone else's drunk uncle back on the wagon?

[Fragony]

Go Finland, how very populist of you to look after your own interests instead of the EUSSR's. Why is there doubt? In your heart

heh timberrrrr

[gaelic cowboy]

This has a familiar pattern to it by now, politicians fail to get ahead of the story and announce austerity plans.


France set to announce austerity measures

We can expect that some bit down the road a new crisis will occur, my bet is low or no french growth.

Thats bad for Ireland as we just recorded a huge trade surplus, any stop to world or euro recovery hit those surpluses were using to pay the bailout with.

dairy sales help lift Ireland to record trade surplus


Yea I knew it was too good to be true, I bet ye 10 euro in paddy power we record a trade deficit at the end of the year even with the massive surplus in first half.
Fear deepens for eurozone's economy as growth stalls

[Kagemusha]

To me it is only responsible politics from Finnish leadership. They are following the democratic will of Finnish people, which is not to throw money down to the well. Yesterday German Chancellor Merkel rejected the idea of bilateral guarantees between individual Euro Nations. Is Merkel rejecting the souverinity of Finland?

Now i want to be perfectly clear about this. EU is not a federal state and Merkel is not the Chancellor of EU. There might be certain wish for that, but that is not a fact and unless democratically decided so, EU member nations retain their souverinity. Ive said many weeks a go already that if we want to keep having Euro, which we have to, those not meeting the EMU criteria has to be kicked out. Thus i agreed to the earlier buffer trust for emergencies like we are in right now.

Still the problem is that the financial injections do not seem to have the effect that was hoped for them, thus further injections towards Greece are just money waisted. This creates a problem for any responsible Government, which right now i am not counting Germany and France among. If they have an vague idea of federal Europe in the future, that is fine and dandy, but they cant base the current politics for that vision. Even more so, when i am not sure there is democratic majority in any of the EU countries for Federal State right now. Thus they are being irresponsible in their efforts of holding the Union as tight as possible, when the function of EU is not right now, anything akin to their future vision.

Personally i dont think that the monetary crisis right now is derived from political problems of EU, but a global problem in both market economy and economical mis thinking when it comes to foundations of economical model for Nations. The current economical thought that there is no need to base currencies in actual wealth like for example Gold, creates an enviroment, where the value itself has no value other then theoretical and the best way to make profit is to manipulate currency values, by injecting and withdrawing "money" to the FX market. Meanwhile the basic thought of economical growth is that the best growth, no matter if it is a independent business or a Nation state can be achieved by living on a debt, which is not intended entirely never to be paid back, as the future profits are thought to make the actual debt profitable.So the debt is not anymore there for expansion of profitable efforts, but thought as profit in itself.

This kind of model is just not sustainable. We need something real to base our economies into.

[Fragony]

If you get this of my back I'm going to order a random fin a pizza. Time for a proper Euro project 'pizza's for Finnish'

[Furunculus]

So can Britain then fully devolve into the UUK... The Un-United Kingdoms of England, Northern Island, Scotland, Wales & The Manx.

Surely given your argument it would be best if Leeds and Manchestor form their own city states to look after their own demo...

a fine example of reductio-ad-absurdum.

think on this; indirect democracy only works because you have sufficient confidence that your peers will act in a sufficiently predictable and acceptable manner, that you are willing to be bound by their collective decisions and share in responsibility for acts taken in your name. if you are unwilling to give of your authority that others may act in your name it is because you do not perceive government as legitimate, most probably because it is neither accountable nor representative of your interests.

i have this confidence in britain; as Louis has on occasion noted we are a boisterous and warlike bunch still, with an apparent love of exactly the kind of adversarial politics, and the same hate of arbitrary interference in personal life.

it works for me, i am content.

as for scotland et-al, they are fee to do as they wish. if they want independence they can have it, i would believe them to be idiots as we have achieved our greatest acts united, but it would be evidence of precisely that lack of shared familial sentiment that is necessary for healthy majoritarian governance to exists. rather than compel them to adhere to the united kingdom, and invent torturous proportional systems of governance to ameliorate their ill-feeling i would rather let them walk away.

[Papewaio]

think on this; indirect democracy only works because you have sufficient confidence that your peers will act in a sufficiently predictable and acceptable manner, that you are willing to be bound by their collective decisions and share in responsibility for acts taken in your name. if you are unwilling to give of your authority that others may act in your name it is because you do not perceive government as legitimate, most probably because it is neither accountable nor representative of your interests.

I don't expect my fellow citizens to vote the same way as me, or to have the same desires. I do believe that democracy is a very good way to moderate a government and with the proper tools of transparency and checks and balances.

What I do think is that the EU got its economic game on before it got its political one. It should have allowed voting at the EU level by the people. I find it strange that the EU formed, made monetary policy yet left off the ability to vote for those who make such decisions.

To me it shows either lack of foresight or power mungering by the politicians... greed and stupidity is an attribute found throughout humanity.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What I do think is that the EU got its economic game on before it got its political one. It should have allowed voting at the EU level by the people. I find it strange that the EU formed, made monetary policy yet left off the ability to vote for those who make such decisions.

To me it shows either lack of foresight or power mungering by the politicians...

Ah...Internet is a bad place for info about the EU, Pape.

The EU would love love love to have directly elected EU politicians. The EU would love nothing more than to be directly accountable to the voters. It is the electorates which have always rejected it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ah...Internet is a bad place for info about the EU, Pape.

The EU would love love love to have directly elected EU politicians. The EU would love nothing more than to be directly accountable to the voters. It is the electorates which have always rejected it.

If this is true then why was the Lisbon Treaty enacted after its first incarnation, the Constitution, was voted down by referenda, and why did the Irish vote twice?

The voting down of the Constitution was an opertunity for the European architechts to take a step back, look at their direction and adjust accordingly, instead they ducked and carried on in the same direction as they were already going.

If the EU is going to work then it HAS to make itself directly accountable, and that means a referendum in each country every time the Commission changed a treaty, if those changes keep getting voted down then that simply demonstrates that the EU lacks popular backing, and is therefore not going anywhere.

[Furunculus]

I don't expect my fellow citizens to vote the same way as me, or to have the same desires. I do believe that democracy is a very good way to moderate a government and with the proper tools of transparency and checks and balances.

What I do think is that the EU got its economic game on before it got its political one. It should have allowed voting at the EU level by the people. I find it strange that the EU formed, made monetary policy yet left off the ability to vote for those who make such decisions.

To me it shows either lack of foresight or power mungering by the politicians... greed and stupidity is an attribute found throughout humanity.

you keep missing the point; identity!

no-one gives a hoot about european elections, or their european identity.

Nor. Is. Necessary. To. Invent. One.

What is wrong with a return to a europe built on the principle of intergovernmental rule whereby sovereign nations beholden to their electorates via legitimate ties founded in representation and accountability?

I really fail to understand this continual push to ever deeper union when it is:
1. not needed
2. not wanted
3. positively antagonistic to the continued good relations between european nations?

why? tell me why? please make me understand............... WHY?