[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[antisocialmunky]

I agree phalanx mass needs to be high.

Secondly, do u realize that phalanxes dont have bonus vs cavalry.
I Charged my Grivpanvar straight into a phalanx once the phalanx lost 20 men i lost 2 or 3, i puled back charged again that phalanx was decimated, i cant remeber the guy i was playing with but i hope he remembers.

GG TEST YOUR **** OUT!

We need a new mass system as .1 differences in mass do nothing.

I think that the 2 problems with the current missile system are that (1) missiles do jack to heavy infantry who aren't moving (well except for barbs and phalanx) and (2) you can kill enemy missiles. Shield values should probably be reduced by 1.

[gamegeek2]

We need a new mass system as .1 differences in mass do nothing.

I think that the 2 problems with the current missile system are that (1) missiles do jack to heavy infantry who aren't moving (well except for barbs and phalanx) and (2) you can kill enemy missiles. Shield values should probably be reduced by 1.

Missiles aren't supposed to kill heavy infantry. There was a good reason that archers were not popular in the West, and weren't until the invention of the crossbow, which could effectively pierce armour (arrows won't pierce through chainmail and cause damage unless you get hit straight-on).

Slingers will have their attack reduced by 1.

Shields I am not sure about; I would have to lower javelin attack as well, which I am not in favor of doing, but if it's called for then sure.

TCV, I love your post. It points out exactly why I do not take Vega and Stormrage's complaints very seriously unless I actually see what they're going on about with my own eyes, in-game.

One thing you said is not correct, though:

You get -10% cost for postmarian infantry though.

Postmarian infantry have no cost reduction, and neither do the auxiliary cavalry (Hispanic, Germanic, Thracian, Gallic). Only Premarians receive an infantry discount, and I may remove the discount for Principes to encourage people to actually bring Hastati.

[-Stormrage-]

GG, i ran into a light cavalry unit in the roman roster do you know how much armour it had, it had 5 armour . then i look down a bit then i see the sheild value 5 SHEILD!!!

what have u been drinking ?


Here is my proposition.

anything light,

medium armour 5-7
high defense skill
low sheild, 1 or 2 maximum.

and for the archers,
Decrease all archer morale by 4.

What will happen? Light cavalry will be vulnerable to missile fire yet att the same time preform well in melee, due to defense skill.

The Decreased morale will lead to light cavalry routing archers and slingers.

[gamegeek2]

Maybe low morale will let bad archers rout if they lose too many men from missile fire? Problem is I think routing is difficult to pull off if you're not nearby the unit.

You can at least name the unit you're talking about. That one would be Equites Germanorum.

[-Stormrage-]

Maybe low morale will let bad archers rout if they lose too many men from missile fire? Problem is I think routing is difficult to pull off if you're not nearby the unit.

You can at least name the unit you're talking about. That one would be Equites Germanorum.

im dont know all these fancy names.

and most people bring a general that will give archers +2 morale, plus some might give them a chevron, thats another +2 morale.
the morale thing needs to be sorted out as well. im talking all units, the general/fear morale effects need to be taken into the equation.

[-Stormrage-]

Let me give a scenario of the ideal battle system.

Note: the heavy cvaalry in this case are Cataphracts.

I attack my enemy our front line forces engage. I have heavy cavalry and light cavalry he has archers and slingers. If i bring in my heavy slow cavalry, they will get Devastated by slingers before i even touch his line. what to do ? My light cavalry are fast , i bring in 2 light cavalry and charge his archers and slingers, the archers only have time for 1 volley if he responded in time. my light cavalry quickly rout his archers/slingers making way for heavier and slower troops to flank ,in this case its heavy cavalry.

You see ? This is how a player should think. atleast the EDU should make players think like this.

Now lets see what would happen if someone was in the same situation but he is using the current EDU.

Same thing, infantry lines clash, i have light cavalry and heavy cavalry, my opponenet has slingers and archers. I bring up my light cavalry charge his archers my cavalry are now fighting half of that archer unit in melee the other half is firing arrows. light cavalry engaged and the archers are ignoring them firing arrows. im Serious ive tested all this out, they are shaken but thats it. His archers dont do much damage since i got 5 armour 5 sheild, or in some cases 8 armour 3 sheild. so niether unit is doing their job, i bring up my heavy cavalry his slingers take out 2 of my cav i continue. they are in position my heavy cvaalry charge at his infatnry, his slingers fire off another volley this time 3 die, his line breaks i win the day.

in the end Light cavalry didnt do their job , archers didnt do their job, and slingers didnt do their job.

One smart guy might argue that well if it takes 30 seconds to fire a volley and every volley gets 2 kills then in 5 minutes or whatever minutes u would have destroyed his whole unit, well this isnt Single player where the AI will leave his cavalry for u to shoot at for 5 minutes, in 10 seconds his cavalry would be mowing down your left flank.

[antisocialmunky]

Missiles aren't supposed to kill heavy infantry. There was a good reason that archers were not popular in the West, and weren't until the invention of the crossbow, which could effectively pierce armour (arrows won't pierce through chainmail and cause damage unless you get hit straight-on).

Slingers will have their attack reduced by 1.

Shields I am not sure about; I would have to lower javelin attack as well, which I am not in favor of doing, but if it's called for then sure.

TCV, I love your post. It points out exactly why I do not take Vega and Stormrage's complaints very seriously unless I actually see what they're going on about with my own eyes, in-game.

One thing you said is not correct, though:



Postmarian infantry have no cost reduction, and neither do the auxiliary cavalry (Hispanic, Germanic, Thracian, Gallic). Only Premarians receive an infantry discount, and I may remove the discount for Principes to encourage people to actually bring Hastati.

I meant can't hit missiles. Actually it is somewhat accurate because no one could really figure out how exactly to deal with skirmishers. However, you should consider lowering morale for skirmishers. Right now they will actually hold against cavalry especially if you chevron them for an additional +2.

[vartan]

gg2 you need to reduce the shield value for cavalry, and I mean light/medium cavalry. Slingers aren't effective as deterrents for them right now. This is primarily due to the higher shield value of the light/medium cavalry. There are claims I see that slingers are too powerful. Reducing their attack might cancel out this lowering of the light/medium cavalry shield value. You will need to figure out how to make the slingers less powerful if these people are correct in what they say, but still make them stronger against light/medium cavalry. You might need to look at accuracy since lowering attack won't do anything but worsen the problem.

And Storm stop being a griefer. Phalangites aren't supposed to have bonus against cavalry because that bonus is not applied solely from the front and with the sarissa alone.

[-Stormrage-]

gg2 you need to reduce the shield value for cavalry, and I mean light/medium cavalry. Slingers aren't effective as deterrents for them right now. This is primarily due to the higher shield value of the light/medium cavalry. There are claims I see that slingers are too powerful.

These "claims" need to be supported by proof and tests, before we can even consider the situation. Its not enough that a person comes up and sais heavy infantry die too quickly, what is your defintion of die too quickly. maybe he thinks die too quickly is 1 kill every 10 minutes.

Now, people claim slingers are too powerful let see their facts, what is the slinger kill per volley? people are thinking 1 kill/volley is OP .

This claim is a bag of dung . Becuase...
1)Sheild Values have increased

2)Slinger accuracy has been significantly reduced, according to GG2.

Side note: Catas given +1 sheild, Imperial archers given +1 sheild.

So we see that slingers werent just nerfed they were nerfed 2 fold, lesser accuracy and high sheilds what more can u want , whats this rubbish about slingers still being too powerful.

And Storm stop being a griefer. Phalangites aren't supposed to have bonus against cavalry because that bonus is not applied solely from the front and with the sarissa alone.

well then u need more greifers to remind you of the basics of warfare.
Slingers are anti armour not anti light cavalry Mr.Vartan , killing light cav is the archers job.

P.S

Phalangites aren't supposed to have bonus against cavalry because that bonus is not applied solely from the front and with the sarissa alone.

i would edit that if i were you

For the second part i give u this :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

stat_pri -, -, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, -, -
stat_pri_attr long_pike, spear, spear_bonus_8
stat_sec -, -, -, -, -, melee, blade, slashing, sword, -, -
stat_sec_attr no,

This will give bonus attack vs cav only for the sarissa.

Done worry Vartan, I know what im talking about.

[Vega]

TCV dont worry about my english worry about what edu we gonna play next tourney, if you guys just ignore me dont know why i am even here i dont need to lose my nerves on this game, but ok gg2 will do it how he think it should be, just hope that rules will be changed at least :D Anyway robin your signature is awasome man! :DD

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Storm, I thank my lucky stars to know someone as gifted at unintentional comedy as you.

I think the slinger v archer problem may have something to do with the trajectories of the missiles? The slingers have more of an advantage because their missiles fly in a straighter line and therefore hit anything in the way. Archers put more arc on their shots and therefore not only have to worry about getting their x coordinates right, but also their y's if you get what I'm saying. I'm not sure how this relates to the accuracy values but it definitely needs some fiddling with.

And Vartan, personally I don't consider slingers too powerful against anything other than most archer units. I must ask however, what prompted this reboot of the missile system in the first place? Was there something terribly wrong with it in earlier versions? I'm just curious.

Anyway robin your signature is awasome man! :DD

Thank you Vega! I made it myself. If you'd like one for Rome I would be happy to make you one. Just pm me or ask me next time you see me on hamachi.

[-Stormrage-]

Archers need a accuracy boost. and not a .1 accuracy boost mr.gg . Big accuracy boost. So that they accualy kill what they are supposed to kill, and the things they arent supposed to kill wont get killed becuase they have armour. if u follow.

[gamegeek2]

gg2 you need to reduce the shield value for cavalry, and I mean light/medium cavalry. Slingers aren't effective as deterrents for them right now. This is primarily due to the higher shield value of the light/medium cavalry. There are claims I see that slingers are too powerful. Reducing their attack might cancel out this lowering of the light/medium cavalry shield value. You will need to figure out how to make the slingers less powerful if these people are correct in what they say, but still make them stronger against light/medium cavalry. You might need to look at accuracy since lowering attack won't do anything but worsen the problem.

And Storm stop being a griefer. Phalangites aren't supposed to have bonus against cavalry because that bonus is not applied solely from the front and with the sarissa alone.

Slingers aren't supposed to deter medium cavalry. Medium cavalry should run over slingers and then turn to do something else.

Lowering shield values would run counter to my entire objective of strengthening lighter infantry and cavalry, which has been very successful. How would you propose to balance the two? Reduce the shield boost for only heavier troops?

[-Stormrage-]

Slingers aren't supposed to deter medium cavalry. Medium cavalry should run over slingers and then turn to do something else.

Lowering shield values would run counter to my entire objective of strengthening lighter infantry and cavalry, which has been very successful. How would you propose to balance the two? Reduce the shield boost for only heavier troops?

Do you READ my posts?

Hold on a second, u just said u are strengthening light infantry and light cav, strengthening agaisnt what ? Archers ?

So your plan is to make the one thing archers are supposed to kill, invulnerable?

So i geuss the 5 sheild cav wasnt a mistake.
and the 0 kill per volley Komatai toxotai vs light cav, point blank range, 0 KILLS! that is your plan right ?

Thats cool.

I Vote we fire GG.

[vartan]

And Vartan, personally I don't consider slingers too powerful against anything other than most archer units. I must ask however, what prompted this reboot of the missile system in the first place? Was there something terribly wrong with it in earlier versions? I'm just curious.

You should be asking the EDU editor. If I remember correctly (gg2 remind me if I'm forgetting), I had no hand in the decision to re-create the missile accuracy system.

Archers need a accuracy boost. and not a .1 accuracy boost mr.gg . Big accuracy boost. So that they accualy kill what they are supposed to kill, and the things they arent supposed to kill wont get killed becuase they have armour. if u follow.

Increasing accuracy does not make an archer kill "what it's supposed to kill", it makes the archer kill more and more, including both what it's supposed to kill (whatever this may mean) and what it isn't supposed to kill (see last parenthetical).

Slingers aren't supposed to deter medium cavalry. Medium cavalry should run over slingers and then turn to do something else.

Lowering shield values would run counter to my entire objective of strengthening lighter infantry and cavalry, which has been very successful. How would you propose to balance the two? Reduce the shield boost for only heavier troops?

How are you going to make slingers an effective deterrent to light cavalry then?

Do you READ my posts?

Only for comic relief.

I Vote we fire GG.

How do you fire someone who was never hired?

[The Celtic Viking]

Postmarian infantry have no cost reduction, and neither do the auxiliary cavalry (Hispanic, Germanic, Thracian, Gallic). Only Premarians receive an infantry discount, and I may remove the discount for Principes to encourage people to actually bring Hastati.

Oh, I see. I got that straight out of the 3.0 documentation though, so was that something you forgot to change in an update, or have you simply neglected it to focus on the actual EDU? I just want to know how up-to-date it is, so I can more accurately regulate my salt supply when reading it.