[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[TheShakAttack]

Aside from a the usual innacuracy here and there I do not see anything that makes it BS ala 300 Spartans

Lazy, we were talking about the clip I linked, not the one you linked.

[TheShakAttack]

Hey GG2, since you had to go I thought I might as well put this here for your convenience. I think your proposal to give +1 arrow attack to longbowmen would be good; but I think you should either decrease cost, or give them more men at current cost.

Also, they should really be AP... the two handed huge sword would surely provide just as much blunt force as a kopis or axe? I'd like to hear ur thoughts on why they shouldn't before I go further into any details. If you look at Arrian's quote on them (earlier post) the swords were pretty big and used with two hands.

Thanks!

[vartan]

IIRC the falxes got AP (again). The sword on the Indians is in a similar situation, no? Formerly AP. Now it does not have AP? We could replace the AP with the same reasoning for the falx, no?

[TheShakAttack]

IIRC the falxes got AP (again). The sword on the Indians is in a similar situation, no? Formerly AP. Now it does not have AP? We could replace the AP with the same reasoning for the falx, no?

Agreed 100% :)

[gamegeek2]

I'm going to have to oppose this extension of the reasoning, because scimitars can't puncture helmets, whereas falxes potentially can. Neither do these scimtars strike behind shields.

[TheShakAttack]

I'm going to have to oppose this extension of the reasoning, because scimitars can't puncture helmets, whereas falxes potentially can. Neither do these scimtars strike behind shields.

They were broad scimtars, similar to the kopis (according to EB2) rather than the true "scimitars" used by arabs and turks. Plus, being longer than a longsword (therefore heavy), and used with 2 hands, they would certainly exert more force than a kopis, and I wouldn't be surprised if force generated was similar to an axe (which was used with one hand....most EB axe units have a shield in other) or even greater.

[The Celtic Viking]

IIRC the falxes got AP (again). The sword on the Indians is in a similar situation, no? Formerly AP. Now it does not have AP? We could replace the AP with the same reasoning for the falx, no?

Yes, and while we're at it, how about the Rhomphaias and the Giant Swords of Terrible Ouchies that the British swordmasters and Lugians carry, eh?

[gamegeek2]

A kopis is more like an axe that can also be used to stab somebody. The in-curving design increases the surface area of the blade, allowing for a better draw cut, and the weighting towards the end gives the thing a bigger wallop. So the weapon does hit hard, but it can't move aside defenses like a falx can, and it certainly can't get past armor. Frankly, the archers weren't even trained properly in the weapons' use, if we are to take Herodotus for his word on the issue.

I'd consider AP for the Rhomphaias, but for the Lugians and Kluddargos I'm going to increase lethality.

[TheShakAttack]

Yes, and while we're at it, how about the Rhomphaias and the Giant Swords of Terrible Ouchies that the British swordmasters and Lugians carry, eh?

Actually you're right. If these dudes dont have AP, maybe longbows shouldn't have it either...

[TheShakAttack]

A kopis is more like an axe that can also be used to stab somebody. The in-curving design increases the surface area of the blade, allowing for a better draw cut, and the weighting towards the end gives the thing a bigger wallop. So the weapon does hit hard, but it can't move aside defenses like a falx can, and it certainly can't get past armor. Frankly, the archers weren't even trained properly in the weapons' use, if we are to take Herodotus for his word on the issue.

I'd consider AP for the Rhomphaias, but for the Lugians and Kluddargos I'm going to increase lethality.

Herodotus wrote on indian swords?

[gamegeek2]

Wait, sorry, I mean Arrian. The one who chronicled Alexander's adventures. :)

[TheShakAttack]

Wait, sorry, I mean Arrian. The one who chronicled Alexander's adventures. :)

Ahh right. If I understand correctly, I think he tried to speak more about morale rather than ability to wield. As in, they do not have morale or staying power of heavy infantry or infantry that were specialised for melee.

[TheShakAttack]

I'm going to do some research on those Indian blades and see how they compare to to lug. and kudd. My instinct is that it would not be a simple straight sword and would be heavily curved (most indian blades were very curved) in a very kopis-like design; either that, or it would be a Khanda [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanda_(sword)].

[antisocialmunky]

It depends. There are single sided straight swords which became more eccentrically curved during the hellenistic period due to the influence of the Kopis. It is difficult to find public sources documenting ancient Indian swords before the rise of Islam and those crazy scimitars. I've tried.

[vartan]

Shak, there's always Ctesias and his Indica. I'll PM you something that might start you on the right track. It doesn't talk much in depth about the swords themselves, about their design. But it'll help, I hope.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

GG2, you never replied to my PM about the Baltic Frontiersmen. Why are they so pricey if their unit size is so small and they are completely unarmored?

[gamegeek2]

GG2, you never replied to my PM about the Baltic Frontiersmen. Why are they so pricey if their unit size is so small and they are completely unarmored?

I intend to discuss this with you on Hamachi.

[vartan]

I intend to discuss this with you on Hamachi.

Oh snap!

[Lazy O]

Vartan I iz dissapoint. You dont say oh snap like that.

[TheShakAttack]

Unfortunately I could not find very much on Indian swords apart from getting some things on google images. What is certain is that there was incredibly diversity in swords in that region. I will wait and see how other 2 handed sword units get dealt with, then consider an appropriate proposal for the melee of longbow units. My only concern is that it is highly probable that the quality of metal used by longbows is likely to be superior- and the design more capable of cleaving through armor- to those used by the 2 handed barbs.

[TheShakAttack]

GG2, you never replied to my PM about the Baltic Frontiersmen. Why are they so pricey if their unit size is so small and they are completely unarmored?

I think this is because (like steppe foot archers) these units face a cost penalty and unit number decrease to reflect the sparsely populated regions they inhabited, and the rarity of foot units?

Also, they liked fast cars and serious bling.

[gamegeek2]

Unfortunately I could not find very much on Indian swords apart from getting some things on google images. What is certain is that there was incredibly diversity in swords in that region. I will wait and see how other 2 handed sword units get dealt with, then consider an appropriate proposal for the melee of longbow units. My only concern is that it is highly probable that the quality of metal used by longbows is likely to be superior- and the design more capable of cleaving through armor- to those used by the 2 handed barbs.

Frankly, the Kluddargos unit shouldn't even exist at all. The Lugians are fine, as we have examples with very long swords with long handles from that region during the time of the Przeworsk culture; but I don't recall any contemporary examples from Britain.

I'm giving the 2-handed barbs 0.4 lethality and -2 atk. I may make them even better. The rhomphaiaphoroi got statted like falxmen, though I may raise their lethality slightly because of their long weapon.

[-Stormrage-]

Why dont you give them AP and make us happy ? We need Armour Piercing units in our Arsenal.

I told you guys when GG makes up his mind, he doesnt change it. Do you gg ? He gives some + attack here or in this case a little extra lethality here just to "shut us up" if you dont mind me saying so. Thats my view, im sorry its a bit harsh but thats what i think.

[vartan]

I told you guys when GG makes up his mind, he doesnt change it. Do you gg ? He gives some + attack here or in this case a little extra lethality here just to "shut us up" if you dont mind me saying so. Thats my view, im sorry its a bit harsh but thats what i think.

I wouldn't put it that way, but more or less. For instance, testing out 2 handed at higher leth and slightly less atk. Why?

Also, gg2 if the EB team found enough evidence to support a Klud unit, why would you alone have them removed? Did the evidence suddenly disappear or did the historian(s) for EB's Casse lose their mind during research?

[gamegeek2]

From Power2the1, one of EB's Celtic experts:

There are finds in the region where the Lugians lived with a sword/swords that are quite hefty, not slender like other blades. Until a time machine is invented we won't really know how that sword was wielded for sure, but could have been in some two-handed/bastard sword style, or it could have been a thick bladed one-handed sword. The Scordisci unit is backed by region finds of the greaves and the curved blade. There was a great article in Romanian and English on the finds of all this that I cannot find in my overflowing .pdf stash for some reason on the Scordisci unit. The Briton unit was, as already mentioned, a very debatable unit and the creators are no longer on the team.

I also haven't seen an archaeological basis for such a unit for the Britons; not one find of a long sword that would have been wielded in two hands. We do have such finds for the Przeworsk culture, i.e. the Lugiones.

[vartan]

The people you could debate with are no longer on the team. Enough said. So what? You're considering removing the unit from MP altogether? Why are we all of a sudden making historical judgements on the unit level now?

[antisocialmunky]

Its in Eb therefore it actually existed therefore you should keep it on the MP EDU.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Yes, leave the newly available data (or lack thereof) to EB2 Online. For now, EB has created various units and we may as well use them.

[vartan]

The way I think of it is the following. We don't mess with what the developers have created in EB. What we do change are allocations and statistics. By allocations I mean which units belong on which rosters. And by statistics I mean the various attack, defense, and other values. The reasoning behind both types of changes can have a historical and/or gameplay basis. But we don't want to alter EB on a more fundamental level, if that makes sense.

[Kival]

Where's my posting? However I mostly agree with the last postings: If we change units based on the EB II conception, we'd need to get rid of the whole Casse-concept, because we should try to be systematically. Just changing one brittain unit on lacking sources would not be systematically.