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Thread: Global Climate Disruption.

  1. #301
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Frag
    But the water doesn't rise all that much since 1981, surely we dutchies must have noticed it if it did. Attenwhatshisnam is full off it, should stick to filming polar bears in Amsterdam's zoo. Nothing to be absolutely terrified about, it ain't happening
    It has been explained by half a dozen people already, all replying to you directly, that currently we are observing the melting of the Arctic's floating ice, and not the ice covering the Antarctic land.
    It was also explained exhaustively why the difference is crucial.
    Come on, now that we even proved there is plenty of solidified water to raise the sea level way above your threshold, are we going to just repeat the whole discussion for the sake of it?




    @drone, ACIN
    Look, my remark was a reply to Frag’s insistence that calculating mathematically that the sea level could rise by 40m is impossible.


    drone: But it's not an elementary school problem.
    ACIN: Pssshhhh, I was calculating this kind of stuff in 5th grade.

    Thus I really don’t see where’s the cause for irony
    We were taught about buoyancy and how to calculate its force (hence also establish displaced volumes) precisely in the 5th grade, which inaugurated our first year of physics classes.
    We were taught about density in the 6th grade.
    Normal kids in a normal school in a normal 250.000 people town in a normal east-European country.


    Now I will give you that perhaps that is middle school, not elementary, I am always fuzzy when it comes to your system – we go through general school (1st to 8th) and lyceum (9th to 12th) here, so we don’t really make a distinction.


    Oh well, I guess we really needed the off-topic, you meanies ganging up on poor old Nowake
    Last edited by Nowake; 12-16-2011 at 01:21. Reason: replying to Frag


  2. #302
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    REMOVED
    Last edited by CountArach; 12-17-2011 at 12:27.

  3. #303
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    I did read the posts in question in that kid's thread and I found your sarcasm towards Sarmatian's comment - that is, your switching of his name upon quoting him - brilliant and a great pity that no one else remarked upon it but me - or perhaps they did and did not comment on it as well.

    So I find it hard to reconcile your usually biting humour with this awful incapacity or refusal to understand the facts above.


  4. #304
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    I did read the posts in question in that kid's thread and I found your sarcasm towards Sarmatian's comment - that is, your switching of his name upon quoting him - brilliant and a great pity that no one else remarked upon it but me - or perhaps they did and did not comment on it as well.

    So I find it hard to reconcile your usually biting humour with this awful incapacity or refusal to understand the facts above.
    Being just fourth just gets to you sometimes

  5. #305
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    You have to engage Fragony with a battle of Burns.
    For example... "Jeez Fragony, that was a pretty dick-ish thing to say."
    Get it?
    Get it?!
    Nuh-uh, I am a fun sponge, the ultimate prick.




    EDIT: Please don't close the thread, we will find our way back on track!
    Last edited by Nowake; 12-16-2011 at 01:43.


  6. #306
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Fragony if you want to catch up to Archimedes level of Eureka science I suggest yet again doing the ice bouyancy test and watch it melt and measure it for yourself.

    At the moment though your mindset of not testing or challenging your ideas or verifying even basic science puts you in the same philosophical boat as not so fun fundamentalists.

    Don't assume anything as it just makes an ass of u & me. Go test the floating ice, then you will understand why the melting Artic has zero impact on sea levels.

    Until then your opinions on global warming are noted and form a Eucledia Point.
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  7. #307
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Au contraire I'm more of a fun fundamentalist. But I'm glad we all agree that water-levels aren't rising, and especially not with 60 meters. So what's the problem really? Attenbfgghhgf said the ice was retreating by the way, only landice retreats, the kind that's above water.

  8. #308
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    What is happening: the Artic ice is one third it's volume since 1981. As the Artic is floating its melting is not contributing to rising sea levels.

    Antarctic is much larger and colder. Antarctica is approx the size of the EU and Australia combined with ice about a mile thick. It hasn't melted like that ... Yet... But what if it did?

    What if: Antarctica melted to the same ratio as the Artic?
    a) it's land ice so it's melting will contribute to sea levels unlike the Artic.
    b) 70% of the worlds fresh water is locked in the Antartic. It's size is more then most minds can comprehend, for instance the land area that Australia claims in Antartica is over twice the size of Western Australia... Which itself is many times the size of Texas.
    c). Melt 2/3 of the ice in the Antartic ... Same amount as the Artic has experienced in thirty years..
    d) melting of a much much larger body of ice that is on load will contribute to sea level rising, 40m for 2/3 of the ice in the Antartic.

    All basic physics... Literally Eureka era... Plus basic volume calculations and you can compute the results for yourself.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  9. #309
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    'What is happening: the Artic ice is one third it's volume since 1981.'

    That's what they say in a BBC documentary, doesn't mean it's true. Take your experiment, if global temperature would rise the north-pole melting would still rise the sea level. Which doesn't rise

  10. #310

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    'Take your experiment, if global temperature would rise the north-pole melting would still rise the sea level. Which doesn't rise
    That is precisely Pape's point: because the North pole is a little floating ice cube in your drink, melting it doesn't make a difference. Its volume is already accounted for in current levels by the displacement of liquid needed for it to float. (Hence why we don't notice big spikes in sea levels during summer or drops during winter.)

    By contrast the Antarctic is not a little floating ice cube, but a big ice cube lying on a table. So what if you took it from your table then dropped it into your drink?
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 12-17-2011 at 05:03.
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  11. #311

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    You can't reason someone out of something they never reasoned themselves into.


  12. #312
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    That is precisely Pape's point: because the North pole is a little floating ice cube in your drink, melting it doesn't make a difference. Its volume is already accounted for in current levels by the displacement of liquid needed for it to float. (Hence why we don't notice big spikes in sea levels during summer or drops during winter.)

    By contrast the Antarctic is not a little floating ice cube, but a big ice cube lying on a table. So what if you took it from your table then dropped it into your drink?
    What are the odds of balancing these effects up to an overall effect of zero? Maybe there is simply nothing happening? Where is the rest of the water that will rise sea levels 60 meter comming from by the way, if we do not act right now.

  13. #313
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Fragony, you do know that trolling is quite rude.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  14. #314
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Fragony, you do know that trolling is quite rude.
    Not trolling, if a global rise of temperature is the common dominator in the equation and the end result (rising sea level) is zero the two poles should exactly balance eachother out. Either they do, or nothing is happening.

  15. #315
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    No takers, but we can pour Pap's an extra glass as the rise in temperature would also melt glaciers. So much for your science. If I pour some extra water it will rise, no matter how weird it may look. Your math is wrong and it takes only common sense to point out where

  16. #316
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What are the odds of balancing these effects up to an overall effect of zero? Maybe there is simply nothing happening? Where is the rest of the water that will rise sea levels 60 meter comming from by the way, if we do not act right now.
    And here's a nice example of what I feel is trolling. The worst estimates is 2 meters rise until 2100. For all 60+ meters to melt, we're talking more than a millenia or aliens testing their heat weapons on Antartica.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not trolling, if a global rise of temperature is the common dominator in the equation and the end result (rising sea level) is zero the two poles should exactly balance eachother out. Either they do, or nothing is happening.
    Sigh. Artic= glas with ice cubes floating on top of water. We've already given examples about how to display buoyancy. Water level won't rise.
    Notable consequences. The polar bears are in trouble in thier natural habitat. The Northwest passage is suddenly useful for the first time in history. Suddenly every country is starting to claim Artica due to new access to the sea bottom.

    Antartic =Mix between ice on the table (=continental glacier) and the whole glass being frozen with a nice 2km tall tower of snow on top of all of it.

    And for the final thing you said. Did you notice that I said that the sea level is already rising because of this melting of glaciers? It's just slow due to the scale involved. It's about 5,8 cm since 1993.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  17. #317
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Polar bears are doing just fine, And so are we here. You have absolutely nothing to absolutely terrify us.

  18. #318
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Polar bears are doing just fine, And so are we here. You have absolutely nothing to absolutely terrify us.
    My Alaskan tea-party conservative grandmother says the same thing lol. "The polar bears are doing just fine, they're just coming to live on the land now." She forgets to mention that more people are getting eaten by polar bears.

  19. #319
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    My Alaskan tea-party conservative grandmother says the same thing lol. "The polar bears are doing just fine, they're just coming to live on the land now." She forgets to mention that more people are getting eaten by polar bears.
    Because there are more of them, doh.

  20. #320
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    haha no, I'm no biologist but I've read that polar bear populations are declining in most places. Polar bears usually live out on the sea ice and hunt seals. But because the sea ice melts so much in the summer now, the polar bears are forced to come onto the land to search for food or they risk drowning. This means that more people are getting eaten than in the past because a) people live on the land, not the ice; and b) polar bears aren't as good as brown bears and wolves at hunting caribou, etc. so people make for an easier meal.

  21. #321
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    You are wrong about that, polar bears are mating with grizzly's, warn your grandma as the result is really big

  22. #322
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    The poles are opposite in both location and composition.

    The Artic is a sea. The Antartic is a continent.

    One is a giant lake the other a giant mountain range.

    Mountains are colder than lakes. Most snow ski fields are in the mountains, and most water skiing is done at sea level.

    Also the Artic is a sea girt by land, the Antartic land girt by sea.

    So two totally different compositions with different external environments around them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic
    Average winter temperatures can be as low as −40 °C (−40 °F), and the coldest recorded temperature is approximately −68 °C (−90 °F)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antartica
    Temperatures reach a minimum of between −80 °C (−112 °F) and −90 °C (−130 °F), and the coldest natural temperature ever recorded on Earth was −89.2 °C (−128.6 °F) at the Russian Vostok Station in Antarctica on 21 July 1983.

    End of the day you are trying to say that a snowy mountain range should have the same temperatures as the sea it sits beside.
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  23. #323
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Your experiment still sucks skippyballs though straw Pap's. For a zero overal rise the two poles should exactly balance eachother out right (lol), but a rise in temperature would still melt glaciers and other cold things.so sea would rise despite that. Now I doubt a melting glacier will have any effect Gorerists say it's a really bad thing (he himself doesn't think so as he bought a perfectly safe coastline mansion) add said water and how would the poles still balance eachother out. Maybe, incredible as it may sound, it's all just the next watermelon's THOU SHALT NOT apocalyptic IF WE DO NOT ACT RIGHT NOW hoax and you gobbed it all up. Science is also for sale if you pay enough

  24. #324
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    As stated Antartic is not melting... Yet.

    Artic is floating so it can melt away and not effect sea levels.


    My statement was a thought experiment. What if the Antartic was as warm as the Artic and melted by 2/3rds? The rest has been repeated at length.

    Easiest experiment in the world is to get some floating ice mark the glass, watch it melt and see no rise in the level.

    What I cannot understand is someone as smart as yourself not even having the desire to test bouyancy. A scientific principle that goes hand in hand with Archimedes Eureka moment. In fact the principle is so well understood that not even the Catholic Church, Flat Earthers or Big Oil have ever proved it wrong. Again twenty minutes and you can prove or disprove it to yourself... Don't assume, man up.

    The Antartic isn't melting anything like the Artic. The Antartic is a 3km high mountain range larger then Europe. It is much colder then the Artic. Iff it melted to the same degree as the Artic it would be noticeable. However at present the Antartic is still not doing so due to it being at a much higher altitude on average then the Artic.

    Fragony I don't care if you currently believe or don't believe in Global Warming. I do despair that someone of your brains will not test even the most basic of principals. Things that the ancients literally murdered each other to know... How to figure out if a crown was pure gold or had a base material mixed in with it. Until Archimedes there was no easy way to figure out density. Density less then water means the material will float and the material will displace as much water in weight as the total weight of the floating material. Which means with ice the weight of the ice will displace it's same weight of water.

    1 kg of ice will displace 1 kg of water.
    1 kg of water has a volume of 1 L.
    1 kg of ice when it melts becomes 1 kg of water = 1 L
    That ice water now fills perfectly the 1 L of displaced water.
    No more water gets displaced as the ice melts.

    Do not take my word for it. Just test it.
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  25. #325

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    As stated Antartic is not melting... Yet.

    Artic is floating so it can melt away and not effect sea levels.


    My statement was a thought experiment. What if the Antartic was as warm as the Artic and melted by 2/3rds? The rest has been repeated at length.

    Easiest experiment in the world is to get some floating ice mark the glass, watch it melt and see no rise in the level.

    What I cannot understand is someone as smart as yourself not even having the desire to test bouyancy. A scientific principle that goes hand in hand with Archimedes Eureka moment. In fact the principle is so well understood that not even the Catholic Church, Flat Earthers or Big Oil have ever proved it wrong. Again twenty minutes and you can prove or disprove it to yourself... Don't assume, man up.

    The Antartic isn't melting anything like the Artic. The Antartic is a 3km high mountain range larger then Europe. It is much colder then the Artic. Iff it melted to the same degree as the Artic it would be noticeable. However at present the Antartic is still not doing so due to it being at a much higher altitude on average then the Artic.

    Fragony I don't care if you currently believe or don't believe in Global Warming. I do despair that someone of your brains will not test even the most basic of principals. Things that the ancients literally murdered each other to know... How to figure out if a crown was pure gold or had a base material mixed in with it. Until Archimedes there was no easy way to figure out density. Density less then water means the material will float and the material will displace as much water in weight as the total weight of the floating material. Which means with ice the weight of the ice will displace it's same weight of water.

    1 kg of ice will displace 1 kg of water.
    1 kg of water has a volume of 1 L.
    1 kg of ice when it melts becomes 1 kg of water = 1 L
    That ice water now fills perfectly the 1 L of displaced water.
    No more water gets displaced as the ice melts.

    Do not take my word for it. Just test it.
    Ice is as safe for bears as EU is joke. Two poles, balancing earth if warming is occurring. Where is the 40m then?


    See, I can be incomprehensible as well.


  26. #326
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    @Pap's, it aint melting yet? I thought you said 1/4 th of it already did. The floating cube is the north-pole by the way, Antartica is land with ice on it. The effect just isn't there. The only explanation is that it's bull that 1/4th of it melted

  27. #327
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Part of the orginal post:
    Artic ice volume 2011 = 1/2 * 2/3 = 1/3 the volume of 1981.

    Now if the Antartic lost 2/3 of its ice the oceans would rise 40m. Nothing to worry about there.
    Artic has lost volume (and as noted is floating so will not effect sea levels)

    Notice the "if the Antartic lost 2/3..." If, If, If... it is a prediction on what would happen if the much colder Antartic land ice melted (which since it's on a mountain, has not yet) to the same degree.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  28. #328
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Part of the orginal post:


    Artic has lost volume (and as noted is floating so will not effect sea levels)

    Notice the "if the Antartic lost 2/3..." If, If, If... it is a prediction on what would happen if the much colder Antartic land ice melted (which since it's on a mountain, has not yet) to the same degree.
    The big thing with Antartica is the sea streams, not the mountains. Cold water simply goes around and around, around Antartica, while there's a significant amount of warm water coming towards Artica (like the gulf stream). Compare habitation zones around the Artic circle (that includes mountains) to the Antartic circle.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  29. #329
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Russia's main gas-company, Gazprom, was unable to meet demand last weekend as blizzards swept across Europe, and over three hundred people died. Did anyone even think of deploying our wind turbines to make good the energy shortfall from Russia?

    Of course not. We all know that windmills are a self-indulgent and sanctimonious luxury whose purpose is to make us feel good. Had Europe genuinely depended on green energy on Friday, by Sunday thousands would be dead from frostbite and exposure, and the EU would have suffered an economic body blow to match that of Japan's tsunami a year ago. No electricity means no water, no trams, no trains, no airports, no traffic lights, no phone systems, no sewerage, no factories, no service stations, no office lifts, no central heating and even no hospitals, once their generators run out of fuel.

    Modern cities are incredibly fragile organisms, which tremble on the edge of disaster the entire time. During a severe blizzard, it is electricity alone that prevents a midwinter urban holocaust. We saw what adverse weather can do, when 15,000 people died in the heatwave that hit France in August 2003. But those deaths were spread over a month. Last weekend's weather, without energy, could have caused many tens of thousands of deaths over a couple of days.

    Why does the entire green spectrum, which now incorporates most conventional parties across Europe, deny the most obvious of truths? To play lethal games with our energy systems in order to honour the whimsical god of climate change is as intelligent and scientific as the Aztec sacrifice of their young. Actually, it is far more frivolous, because at least the Aztecs knew how many people they were sacrificing: no one has the least idea of the loss of life that might result from the EU embracing "green" energy policies.

    Frau Merkel has announced that Germany is going to phase out nuclear power, simply because of the Japanese tsunami. Well, that is like basing water-collection policies in Rhineland-Westphalia on the monsoon cycle of Borneo. As I was saying last week, the Germans have a powerfully emotional attachment to everything that is "green", and an energy policy based on renewables will usually win German hearts. But it will not protect the owners of those hearts from frostbite and death due to exposure, for wind can often be not so much a Renewable as an Unusable, and also an Unpredictable, an Unstorable, and -- normally when it's very cold -- an Unmovable.

    The seriousness of this is hard to exaggerate. The temperature in the Baltic countries last weekend was -33 degrees Celsius. The Eurasian landmass from Calais to Naples to Siberia was an icefield in which hundreds of millions of people were trapped. Without coal, oil and nuclear energy, mass deaths of the old and the young would have occurred on the first night. Three nights on of such conditions, and even the physically fit would have been dying of exposure, as the temperature inside dwellings fell and began to match that of the outside, an inverse image of what happened during the French heatwave 10 years ago, when there was no escape from the heat.

    Yet you will see nowhere in Dail Eireann, or Brussels, or the Palace of Westminster, a serious discussion about energy policies based on these realities, or which acknowledges that wind usually doesn't blow when it is very cold, or that even when you have strong and steady winds blowing, you will still have to have created a parallel and duplicate energy supply to provide cover for when the wind stops. And merely to create that standby energy system will generate a zillion tons of carbon dioxide.

    Wind power in Ireland actually produces only 22pc of its capacity: would you spend ¿100,000 on a car if it meant that ¿78,000 of the purchase price was wasted? It gets worse. On a really cold day, we actually need about 5,000 megawatts, but yesterday wind was producing under 50 megawatts: a grand total of 1pc of requirements.

    Yet despite such appalling figures, we legally prohibit civil servants from even looking at the nuclear option. They won't even take a phone-call on the subject. Instead, the fiction has taken hold amongst our media classes that we are close to being an exporter of renewable energy through the much-vaunted interconnector with Britain. But this is grotesquely untrue. We shall actually be exporting through the connector only 3pc of the time, and importing 86pc, with the system otherwise idle.

    Mad, isn't it? And madder still that RTE or the BBC will continue to trot out their pet wind-enthusiasts to bluster balderdash and poppycock about global warming and how renewables are the solution -- and without the contrary point of view ever being given an airing. This is dogma, as created, promulgated and enforced by the John Charles McQuaids of our time -- and if sceptics are not actually anathematised from the pulpit, they are ruthlessly and systematically ignored. These dishonest, hypocritical and deceitful energy policies are now widely accepted by our political and teaching classes as being the very embodiment of environmentalist virtue. Such imbecilic virtue, if implemented as energy policy across Europe, could have brought about a human catastrophe last weekend.
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...e-3012098.html

    A very sensible post given all that warble gloaming lying on the ground. For the fourth year in a row.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  30. #330
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    15 acrually , but that isn't going to stop the Green Khmer from preaching DEATH by CO2, repeat reppeat repeat, and everyone is absolutelty terrified of CO2. No warming you monkeys.

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