Trojan War Happened In England.

[spankythehippo]

One obvious trouble with that scenario is Celtic Social Laws. Helen would have just divorced the guy and gone off with Paris. No muss no fuss. She could have even slept with him while married without it being a big to-do. No reason for a world war if it were Celtic Tribes.

I don’t know much about the Authors or their research in Geography but in the Celtic world view these things make no sense.

It is just an Englishman trying to say that his capital city is Troy in my view.

The thing is, there is no Helen, and there is no Paris. The Trojan War was all about tin, for making bronze. The war was about resources.

Another thing that is quite interesting, is the sentence, "The face that launched a thousand ships."

Since when was Sparta a naval power? They never had a navy, even though they had admirals in the Persian War. But these admirals were on Athenian ships, because Athens wanted to be on good terms with Sparta during the Persian War. They are strictly a military state. And, according to Homer's Iliad, Troy was sacked and looted. Sparta didn't care for jewels, or gold or anything. Their currency was iron bars, to prevent theft. Spartan people were... well, spartan. That's where that word came from. They had no interests in any superficial items. They were prosperous, but only because of slavery of the Helots.

[Montmorency]

The Trojan War is usually dated to some point before the Spartans you speak of migrated into Greece. It's a bit like criticizing notions of an ancient Egyptian religion by claiming that everyone knows Egyptians thought Allah was the only god.

The Trojan-era Sparta would have been more of a grouping of loosely associated aristocrats. These aristocrats might easily have owned their very own naval craft, with which they would have sailed the Mediterranean looking for plunder and glory: the overarching motivations of a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age aristocrat warrior. Both plunder and glory aplenty would be found at Troy. Anyway, Sparta "only" sent something like 50 ships in the Iliad: 4%.

There isn't even total agreement on the historicity of a "Trojan War". This reinterpretation only makes it less credible. :/

[spankythehippo]

The Trojan War is usually dated to some point before the Spartans you speak of migrated into Greece. It's a bit like criticizing notions of an ancient Egyptian religion by claiming that everyone knows Egyptians thought Allah was the only god.

The Trojan-era Sparta would have been more of a grouping of loosely associated aristocrats. These aristocrats might easily have owned their very own naval craft, with which they would have sailed the Mediterranean looking for plunder and glory: the overarching motivations of a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age aristocrat warrior. Both plunder and glory aplenty would be found at Troy. Anyway, Sparta "only" sent something like 50 ships in the Iliad: 4%.

There isn't even total agreement on the historicity of a "Trojan War". This reinterpretation only makes it less credible. :/

But with all of the ancients, they tend to exaggerate a bit.

Also, the site of Troy in Turkey was desTROYed (geddit... heh heh) by a very inept amateur archaeologist, by the name of Heinrich Schliemann.

Exactly, the Spartans were not Spartans. They were descended from the Dorians, Peloponnesians, and migrants. So Homer was exaggerating, if there was a shred of truth to his story.

And some of the narratives in the Iliad are really far-fetched. When Achilles was about to fight Hector, Hector ran away. Achilles went after him, and circled Troy 7 times. That's quite alot of running. But there's also the story of Pheidippides, who ran from Athens to Sparta in a single day.

[Montmorency]

Exactly, the Spartans were not Spartans. They were descended from the Dorians, Peloponnesians, and migrants. So Homer was exaggerating, if there was a shred of truth to his story.

Yes, which tends to refute the point to which I replied.

And some of the narratives in the Iliad are really far-fetched. When Achilles was about to fight Hector, Hector ran away. Achilles went after him, and circled Troy 7 times. That's quite alot of running. But there's also the story of Pheidippides, who ran from Athens to Sparta in a single day.

...

What does this have to do with a "English" Trojan War? You're going off on tangents. Anyway, no one disputes that ancient epics are exaggerated in nature.

[spankythehippo]

Yes, which tends to refute the point to which I replied.



...

What does this have to do with a "English" Trojan War? You're going off on tangents. Anyway, no one disputes that ancient epics are exaggerated in nature.

It doesn't have anything to do with the English Trojan War, it's just some examples of some of Homer's tales.


The evidence that Wilkens is providing is predominantly the landscape and the naming of places in England. Caer Troia is the Celtic city of Troy.

Taken from the website in my first post:

The Achaeans built 1186 ships for their attack on Troy, they could have travelled the short distance overland far quicker and cheaper if Troy really had been in the Greek and Turkish Mediterranean setting.
The Turkish setting had no nearby bay or port large enough to accommodate anything near the size of Achaean fleet.
The Turkish setting plain is not large enough to accommodate the invading army of about 100,000 men and the long pursuits in horse-drawn chariots.
No bronze weapons have been found at the Turkish Troy site.
The Greek (Mycenaean) civilisation died out at the beginning of the Trojan War, so where not in a position to launching or sustain a large long term war.
Agamemnon took a full month to sail from his kingdom Argos to Ithaca, we know the trip takes less than 24 hours in the Mediterranean setting.
Odysseus claimed to have got home by travelling as a passenger on a ship going from Crete to Sidon (present day Saïda in Lebanon), but that is the opposite direction he needed to go in the Mediterranean setting.
The philosophy of Homer is very different from the beliefs of the Greeks who thought there were two opposite elements such as good and evil, Homer's writings reveal three such forces which are known Celtic notions, suggesting Homer was a Celt.



Please note, that I am taking neither side in this historical debate. Just bringing forward evidence from both sides.

[CountArach]

In my opinion and from the reading I have done, the Trojan war never actually occurred and the poems are just a reflection of a mytho-historical narrative. To attempt to derive any modernist version of history from poems that changed over centuries of word-of-mouth compilation within a society that we know very little about would be absolutely impossible.

Also Homer never existed.

[spankythehippo]

In my opinion and from the reading I have done, the Trojan war never actually occurred and the poems are just a reflection of a mytho-historical narrative. To attempt to derive any modernist version of history from poems that changed over centuries of word-of-mouth compilation within a society that we know very little about would be absolutely impossible.

Also Homer never existed.

To support this statement, Homer (if he lived) was alive around 300 years after the event in question. So this could possibly be the equivalent of making grandpa's stupid stories into "facts".


When you say "Homer never existed", do you mean that he isn't who everyone says he is?

[Veho Nex]

I think Romans and Greeks during the height of their power took myths from other lands and turned them into their own. There are groups out there who believe Atlantis was really Indian in the beginning and that Alexander brought the myth of it back and turned it into how we see Atlantis today.

[Conradus]

I think Romans and Greeks during the height of their power took myths from other lands and turned them into their own. There are groups out there who believe Atlantis was really Indian in the beginning and that Alexander brought the myth of it back and turned it into how we see Atlantis today.

How can that be possible since one of the first mentions of Atlantis was in Plato's books, wasn't it? And at that time Alex still had to go to India.

[Veho Nex]

How can that be possible since one of the first mentions of Atlantis was in Plato's books, wasn't it? And at that time Alex still had to go to India.

I don't know too much about it, only the information my science teacher gave us in High school and I could be wrong about Alexander's army bringing it back. I just remember the myth he told us about a city in India which was swallowed by the ocean. This city was a technological marvel of the time and that there are Atlantis like myths in India that date back to the period.

Also with some research it is evident that Atlantis existed in both Indian, Greek, and Egyptian myths before Plato. There was a land mass off the coast of India called Kumari Kandam which some view as a possible connection to Atlantis.

Like I said before, I've not studied any of this and my thoughts are from what others have said that I chose to remember or google. Take my ideas on this with a grain or more of salt.

[Vladimir]

This entire problem can be solved with time travel. Trust me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Saved!

Spartans never wore leather underwear and a red cape. They wore full armour, and a hoplon. But they did have a red cape.

That was a joke.

[Arjos]

I said sarcasm can be understood in written form only by some...
Must be a genetic issue :D

[Fisherking]

How can that be possible since one of the first mentions of Atlantis was in Plato's books, wasn't it? And at that time Alex still had to go to India.

I think it was Aristotle who told the story and he was a student of Plato, which puts him contemporary or later than Alexander.

[Fisherking]

That was Plato, if I remember right.

[Arjos]

Plato was the first one indeed, it's believed the origins of the myth lay in Santorini's "explosion"...

[Fisherking]

The thing is, there is no Helen, and there is no Paris. The Trojan War was all about tin, for making bronze. The war was about resources.

Another thing that is quite interesting, is the sentence, "The face that launched a thousand ships."

A war over anything but women is likely. Evidence of battles though dose not make it the Trojan War.

Tell us how they put together the story. Is this just conjecture ? How did they put the story together?

[spankythehippo]

A war over anything but women is likely. Evidence of battles though dose not make it the Trojan War.

Tell us how they put together the story. Is this just conjecture ? How did they put the story together?

Which story? The Troy that Sparta fought or the Troy in England?