Hi America, meet islamisation

[a completely inoffensive name]

it seems to me those discussions on TWC are really better with real muslims so we know their stupidities, rather than Hax's usual "defend Islam" position despite he's blind about it.too much lefties here... too much lefties here... ABB was right afterall.... (although his methods are... questionable, his prediction was right)

Then you better get out of here before my leftist taint starts rubbing off on you.

[Hax]

You're actually wrong, Spike, I know everything about the Islamic mind-hive. See, if you look at the Qur'an for too long it starts taking out your soul, that's why Muslims are incapable of independent thought and are unable to do anything but try to convert the entire world to Islam. It's because the Qur'an wants your soul.

Now, I haven't been affected yet, but I voluntarily chose to serve the leftist church dhimmitude determinist elite who know that the Islamic take-over of the world is inevitable. That's also why I study Arabic language and culture, so I can serve the coming polygamous wife-beating democracy-hating infidel-killing overlords all the better, right. The end is nigh.

[Fragony]

Redicule is normal, it's a shame Sonic doesn't post here anymore, ex-muslim and half-arab like you. Surely he could fill you in on some things you don't really want to know. Assuming everybody thinks like you, big mistake. For some reason lefties feel they are doing muslims a favour by respecting it's sharper edges, defending the burqua as a women's right while in the muslim world educated women just want to get out.

[Hax]

What if the woman herself chooses to wear the burqa?

[jirisys]

What if the woman herself chooses to wear the burqa?

Politically righteous people would be scared and tell the woman she shouldn't, because that's the way of the world in the west and it's a sign of female discrimination.

Same thing happens if a woman chooses not to wear a burka in a very theocratic islamic nation, where it's a sign of disrespect.

I saw woman wearing a burka once in San Diego. I didn't run away in fear, I just thought "huh". Then continued walking. I had an ice cream, it was pistaccio, it was very soft and sweet, it had crumbles of pistaccio in it. I really enjoyed it.

~Jirisys ()

[Noncommunist]

What if the woman herself chooses to wear the burqa?

What if a man chooses to wear one?

[Fragony]

What if the woman herself chooses to wear the burqa?

Than she is probably dangerous

[Hax]

Politically righteous people would be scared and tell the woman she shouldn't, because that's the way of the world in the west and it's a sign of female discrimination.

Are you sure you want to live in a state where people impose their moral views on someone else? I feel uncomfortable too when I see a woman wearing a burka and it's probably a good idea to walk up to her and say "Gosh, why are you wearing this, it makes me feel uncomfortable, would you mind taking it off?", but to justify that by saying 'That's not how we do things in the West', I don't know. Do you really want to do that?

On the point of female discrimination: this is your perception of what a burka is. Some people would argue that the headscarf is a symbol of female oppression, but is there any way to justify that? Who are we going to ask about that?

Same thing happens if a woman chooses not to wear a burka in a very theocratic islamic nation, where it's a sign of disrespect.

Could you name any of these very theocratic Islamic nations?

What if a man chooses to wear one?

If you want to put an oversized sock on your head, feel free.

Than she is probably dangerous

Dangerous in what sense?

[Fragony]

Actually chosing to wear it is an obvious statement that they reject the society they live, rejecting it any further is becomming jihadi. Not that I care wether they are forced or not, it's not a person it's a bag. They can bleed to death before my eyes without me calling them an ambulance, they disgust me.

[Hax]

Actually chosing to wear it is an obvious statement that they reject the society they live, rejecting it any further is becomming jihadi.

How do you know this?

[Fragony]

How do you know this?

I assume so. Find me the passage in the Qu'ran that tells women to cover up if you will. It's wahibi political activism and it has no place here in the Netherlands, there are perfectly fine deserts where they can herd their wives and beat their sheep, or the other way around I'm no expert of people who have culture. Immigrant leave things behind, colonists bring it with them. I got only so much patience with it it's not Saudi Arabia over here, I detest arab culture and I am not going to apoligise for that

[Hax]

Your assumption has no basis in fact, and I think that's where you're going off. When you start looking into the kind of women that are currently donning the burqa in Western Europe (let's limit ourselves to that place, then), you'll find two kinds of Muslim women:

1) Converts to Islam
2) "Born-again" Muslims.

As this is the case, how can you argue that this is a byproduct of immigration?

Interestingly, and we spoke at length about this in one of my classes on Modern Islamic philosophy, the Mufti of Egypt of 1899, who was also one of the greatest modern reformers of Islam, Muhammad Abduh, basically declared that the donning of the hijab (referring in this case to the niqab and burqa) have no basis in Islamic scripture and is rather a tradition that became identified with religion rather than it being a core part of the religion itself. I don't think you want to start a discussion with the deceased grand mufti of al-Azhar on this subject, right?

On that subject, what do you define as "Arab culture". It's about as useless to talk about a static "Arab culture" as it would be to talk about "Dutch culture" or "American culture". Would a show like Dr. Phil or Oh Oh Cherso be representative for the American respectively Dutch cultures? You seem to forget that especially in Egypt, there has been a massive amount of western influence, especially from the 19th century onward. I'm currently reading a book called "Amrikanli" by the Egyptian writer Sonallah Ibrahim. I'm pretty sure that's Arab culture too. Who are you, or for that case, who am I to define what culture is?

[Fragony]

A knife in your guts can have a broader perspective, the horizon being the last thing you see. There is no moderate communism, there is no moderate national-socialism, and there is no moderate islam. Don't fascilitate it that's all I ask for really. We had enough madness on this continent there is no need to import another vile ideoligy, one that is worse than all combined

[CountArach]

A knife in your guts can have a broader perspective, the horizon being the last thing you see. There is no moderate communism, there is no moderate national-socialism, and there is no moderate islam. Don't fascilitate it that's all I ask for really. We had enough madness on this continent there is no need to import another vile ideoligy, one that is worse than all combined

A terrific answer to Hax's question.

[Hax]

There is no moderate communism, there is no moderate national-socialism, and there is no moderate islam.

And this ties in directly to our discussion how?

We had enough madness on this continent there is no need to import another vile ideoligy, one that is worse than all combined

So I take it this is how you respond to the fact that the burqa itself was declared un-Islamic by the highest institute of Sunni Islam? By spinning off about how Islam is a vile ideology that is dangerous to the West. Right.

[Fragony]

So I take it this is how you respond to the fact that the burqa itself was declared un-Islamic by the highest institute of Sunni Islam?

No idea but I want fries with it, what's it to me.

[Hax]

You don't have to think anything about it, but you have to realise that discussions like these already exist. You make wild assumptions about Islam based on your own perception of Arab culture without even stopping to explain what that means and completely ignoring the diversity inherent in the same discussion.

I'm not going anywhere until you explain what you mean with Arab culture and how this relates to the burka discussion.

[Major Robert Dump]

How many of the women in the west who wear the burqa "voluntarily" would get smacked around/chastised by their husband/father if they didn't? One of the things about these "voluntary" sharia courts that I find so incredibly dubious is that it refuses to acknowledge the pressure a family can put on a woman to "voluntarily" attend such a court.

The whole covering of the face thing in offical IDs or at public events (the no-masks city ordinances) to me is a no-brainer. It's a rule of the community, and it's common sense, religous discrimination has nothing to do with it. Abide by the rules.

[Hax]

I actually completely agree with the second part of your post. This does not warrant a burka ban, but simply asking them to take it off would probably do the trick. We don't need a law for that.

"How many of the women in the west who wear the burqa "voluntarily" would get smacked around/chastised by their husband/father if they didn't"

Do you have any kind of proof that this is indeed the case. Earlier on, I referred to an article talking about how many women wear the burka and more importantly, who these women are. I mentioned earlier that it's almost(!) exclusively worn by western converts and born-again Muslims. In most of the cases, it's not a family tradition, there's likely no husband or family imposing or forcing them to wear it. This is probably very different for Muslim women of Middle-Eastern descent, but there are hardly any of them here that wear the burka. It's a non-issue.

EDIT: My quote tags aren't working. Very handy.

[Sarmatian]

Burqa itself is a tyranny of men toward women. It doesn't say anywhere in Qu`ran that a female has to be covered up competely. Instead it says that men shouldn't desire other men wives. And what did men do? Transfered that burden to the women. All that should be banned in the western world. It's the only way. I won't spend time grieving if one muslim women would be offended because she chose to wear a burqa if 5 others are forced to do it. The very concept of it makes women less free, doesn't have anything to do with Islam and customs.

[Fragony]

How many of the women in the west who wear the burqa "voluntarily" would get smacked around/chastised by their husband/father if they didn't? One of the things about these "voluntary" sharia courts that I find so incredibly dubious is that it refuses to acknowledge the pressure a family can put on a woman to "voluntarily" attend such a court.

Ya. And no matter how islamphiles mentally block it, the women have precious little rights in the islam. More disrespect please

[Vuk]

I actually completely agree with the second part of your post. This does not warrant a burka ban, but simply asking them to take it off would probably do the trick. We don't need a law for that.

"How many of the women in the west who wear the burqa "voluntarily" would get smacked around/chastised by their husband/father if they didn't"

Do you have any kind of proof that this is indeed the case. Earlier on, I referred to an article talking about how many women wear the burka and more importantly, who these women are. I mentioned earlier that it's almost(!) exclusively worn by western converts and born-again Muslims. In most of the cases, it's not a family tradition, there's likely no husband or family imposing or forcing them to wear it. This is probably very different for Muslim women of Middle-Eastern descent, but there are hardly any of them here that wear the burka. It's a non-issue.

EDIT: My quote tags aren't working. Very handy.

So all other things pertaining to security should be handled with laws, but when it comes to muslims, we should just ask 'pretty please' and hope they are in a good mood?

[rory_20_uk]

It seems pretty simple to me - "our country, our laws". Don't like it - stay out.

If persons entered the UK who were used to being topless we'd not be saying how we just need to adapt to their customs, and similarly Westerners need to adapt to the norms of Islamic countries. Want to avoid ever uncovering one's face to a man? Pop off To Saudi Arabia, they'll be far more sympathetic.

[Fragony]

So all other things pertaining to security should be handled with laws, but when it comes to muslims, we should just ask 'pretty please' and hope they are in a good mood?

Funny thing is, it's already illegal here to cover your face because of security. Makes the leftist confusion even more hilarious, not only do they see the burqua as female emancipation, but they also demand special treatment for religion. Could things get even more confusing, I could show you an election-poster from the seventies but it would be breaking forum rules on nudity, and these same guys now want to put on a burqua out of protest. The mother of wtf

[Hax]

So all other things pertaining to security should be handled with laws, but when it comes to muslims, we should just ask 'pretty please' and hope they are in a good mood?

That's the thing, isn't it? It's already handled by security laws, we don't need another one applying only to the burka, as it's already covered by other laws. I just don't get the idea of women not being able to choose, as we've already established that this is a matter of personal autonomy, what they want to wear in public.

Do you want to live in a country where the state tells you what you can't or what you can wear? Doesn't sound very American to me.

[Vuk]

That's the thing, isn't it? It's already handled by security laws, we don't need another one applying only to the burka, as it's already covered by other laws. I just don't get the idea of women not being able to choose, as we've already established that this is a matter of personal autonomy, what they want to wear in public.

Do you want to live in a country where the state tells you what you can't or what you can wear? Doesn't sound very American to me.

The American ideal is maximum freedom to the extent that it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom. When you go through airport security and choose to wear a face mask (no matter what you call it), you are creating a security problem that threatens many others. I live in WI wear it can get pretty cold. It is not unusual to see guys outside of a FleetFarm with ski-masks, chatting. When they get a driver's license photo, go into a building, or go to an airport they are not wearing them though. You have to be reasonable.

How far are you willing to take the 'right to wear whatever you want'? If I walk around in full body armour and a face mask, with a pistol on my side, am I not threatening other's security? It is legal to wear a pistol, so why not in combination with concealing my identity and wearing body armour? There have to be limits.

[Rhyfelwyr]

When it comes to the burqa I think women should be free to wear whatever they want so long as it complies with public decency laws. But at the same time, we should not do anything further to accomodate them in the name of 'freedom of religion'.

So if Mrs. al-Wahabi wants to wear her burqa while she goes to get her groceries, I see no problem with that and I think it is bizarre when people do have a problem with that. But if she wants to board a plane but doesn't want to show her face for airport security, then that's tough luck for her, no plane ride.

Don't get me wrong. I think the burqa looks ridiculous. It comes from an alien culture that I don't like seeing on my streets. But the proper legislation for dealing with this would relate to immigration, not what people can wear.

Anyway, the concern that some women might be forced to wear the burqa is a valid one. However I see no reason why that issue would not be covered by existing laws.

And as for the discussion on Arab culture here, it is irrelevant. I don't see why Fragony or myself should feel obliged to know anything about national or ethnic cultures besides our own. It is perfectly fine for our viewpoint on the burqa to be shaped by our own legal/security/womens' rights concerns.

[Vuk]

When it comes to the burqa I think women should be free to wear whatever they want so long as it complies with public decency laws. But at the same time, we should not do anything further to accomodate them in the name of 'freedom of religion'.

So if Mrs. al-Wahabi wants to wear her burqa while she goes to get her groceries, I see no problem with that and I think it is bizarre when people do have a problem with that. But if she wants to board a plane but doesn't want to show her face for airport security, then that's tough luck for her, no plane ride.

Don't get me wrong. I think the burqa looks ridiculous. It comes from an alien culture that I don't like seeing on my streets. But the proper legislation for dealing with this would relate to immigration, not what people can wear.

Anyway, the concern that some women might be forced to wear the burqa is a valid one. However I see no reason why that issue would not be covered by existing laws.

And as for the discussion on Arab culture here, it is irrelevant. I don't see why Fragony or myself should feel obliged to know anything about national or ethnic cultures besides our own. It is perfectly fine for our viewpoint on the burqa to be shaped by our own legal/security/womens' rights concerns.

Actually, my brother was asked at a hardware store to remove his hood once, because it covered too much of his face. When you go into someone's home or business, you have to obey their laws, and people feel uncomfortable when you conceal your identity like that.
If you want to walk down the street in a burqa, more power to you, but if you are coming into a bank or store, my guess is that if it was not for people being afraid of religious discrimination suits, they would ask them to remove it. In what other circumstances would it be ok for a masked man to walk into a bank and not be asked to remove the mask? (and for all you know, whatever is beneath the burqua is a man. Even if it is not, you don't know if it is a woman with criminal intent)
If I was running a business, I certainly would not want people coming in wearing masks.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Anyway, the concern that some women might be forced to wear the burqa is a valid one. However I see no reason why that issue would not be covered by existing laws.

Because we can't just sit back and say "well, it's covered by our laws". For example, we don't just make drugs illegal, we actively try to intercept the drug boats bringing the stuff into the country, not a great analogy but whatever. Same with the burqa--there's no feasible way to just stop domestic abuse by making it illegal, so we try other things with the goal of actually decreasing domestic abuse.

Though I agree with Hax that there's no reason to prevent born again/islamic converts from wearing it. In the future the ban will likely (hopefully) become irrelevant.

[Hax]

The American ideal is maximum freedom to the extent that it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom. When you go through airport security and choose to wear a face mask (no matter what you call it), you are creating a security problem that threatens many others. I live in WI wear it can get pretty cold. It is not unusual to see guys outside of a FleetFarm with ski-masks, chatting. When they get a driver's license photo, go into a building, or go to an airport they are not wearing them though. You have to be reasonable.

I don't think you are aware of the exact extent of the burqa ban. When it comes to matters of entering buildings like banks, airports, grocery shops to sports halls, the legislation already exists. Of course they're going to have to be able to identify themselves.

The bill is going to talk about what women can wear in public. That's right, it's banning burqas from being worn when a woman goes out of the house, which basically infringes on a woman's autonomy.

But let's be serious here. This is a quote from the article I linked to earlier on:

An article on the interesting Swedish site islamologi.se picks the story up:In France, where there is an inflamed debate on the matter right now, the first investigation carried out by the police last year found that there were 367 women in France who wore burka or Niqab – 0.015% of the population. This was so low that the secret service was told to count again, and came up with a figure of 2,000; in Holland there seem to be about 400, and in Sweden a respectable guess suggests 100

367, 400, 100. Amazing figures. We're going to come up with seperate legislation to talk about these people, most of whom weren't even born in a Muslim country but rather chose to don the burka themselves. Is this a serious political issue that warrants discussion in parliament?

And as for the discussion on Arab culture here, it is irrelevant. I don't see why Fragony or myself should feel obliged to know anything about national or ethnic cultures besides our own. It is perfectly fine for our viewpoint on the burqa to be shaped by our own legal/security/womens' rights concerns

The implication was made that the burqa is a direct result of the importation of Arab culture in the West. I asked Fragony​ to back this up, but he refused. Now, seeing as I'm quarter Arab (not half, mind you), is it unthinkable that this strikes me as being somewhat offensive, and as such, I really wanted to know why he thinks this is somehow an integral part of Arab culture, when in fact it was basically declared an idiotic tradition over a century ago.