Obamacare Going Down?

[gaelic cowboy]

Your liberty stops where my liberty begins. Specifically, my liberty to breathe clean air trumps your liberty to dump toxic waste in your backyard. Same reason why driving drunk is an infraction: it interferes with my liberty to drive in safe conditions.

So where does health sit in this then?? why does you liberty to oppose healthcare trump your neighbours demand for self same right.

I dont see that you do have the right to oppose someone elses getting healthcare since it would be a common good like Drink Drive laws.

[Lemur]

why does you liberty to oppose healthcare trump your neighbours demand for self same right.

I think using the idea of a "right" confuses the issue. Healthcare is not about rights, it's about a common good and a resource which every single one of us will use at some point. Roads, for example, are not a right, but they're an obvious common good, so we all agree to pay for them.

Citizens who are needlessly crippled, too ill to work, or preventably dead are a drain on our whole society. And we do wind up paying for them, one way or another. So it's a self-evident common good for us to work out a fair, equitable and cost-conscious way to distribute and pay for the common good.

[rvg]

So where does health sit in this then?? why does you liberty to oppose healthcare trump your neighbours demand for self same right.

Because healthcare is not a right.

I dont see that you do have the right to oppose someone elses getting healthcare since it would be a common good like Drink Drive laws.

I have no less of a right to oppose it than you have to support it.

Citizens who are needlessly crippled, too ill to work, or dead are a drain on our whole society. And we do wind up paying for them, one way or another. So it's a self-evident common good for us to work out a fair, equitable and cost-conscious way to distribute and pay for the common good.

Couldn't agree more. Now let's do it without making a mockery of the basic American principles of freedom.

[gaelic cowboy]

I think using the idea of a "right" confuses the issue. Healthcare is not about rights, it's about a common good and a resource which every single one of us will use at some point. Roads, for example, are not a right, but they're an obvious common good, so we all agree to pay for them.

Citizens who are needlessly crippled, too ill to work, or dead are a drain on our whole society. And we do wind up paying for them, one way or another. So it's a self-evident common good for us to work out a fair, equitable and cost-conscious way to distribute and pay for the common good.

Indeed common good is more what I am thinking about but where does individual liberty cross swords with common good.

RVG claims his liberty mine ends where his begins and vice versa to be honest I find this to be a wishy washy at best.

How much liberty does each individual get, if I live in Alaska do I have more than someone in Manhattan, RVG would say yes but me I say no just because my actions affect less people in Alaska does not allow me such freedom as to stripmine the whole place.

[rvg]

How much liberty does each individual get, if I live in Alaska do I have more than someone in Manhattan, RVG would say yes but me I say no just because my actions affect less people in Alaska does not allow me such freedom as to stripmine the whole place.

I would appreciate if you let me speak for myself. Okay? Thanks.

[gaelic cowboy]

Because healthcare is not a right.

But here is the nub your constitution enshrines say the right to life or the right to happiness etc etc sickness infringes these rights.

Your obliged by your constitution to provide these self same services in an effort to attempt to address these failings.

If you choose to call it rights, entitlements or benefits is really of no consequence and rather misses the point that when an Irish or UK person says right they mean common good generally.

[rvg]

But here is the nub your constitution enshrines say the right to life or the right to happiness etc etc sickness infringes these rights.

Your obliged by your constitution to provide these self same services in an effort to attempt to address these failings.

If you choose to call it rights, entitlements or benefits is really of no consequence and rather misses the point that when an Irish or UK person says right they mean common good generally.

There is no right to happiness, only the right to pursue happiness.

[gaelic cowboy]

I would appreciate if you let me speak for myself. Okay? Thanks.

Well how much liberty do you get who decides? does anybody

[Lemur]

But here is the nub your constitution enshrines say the right to life or the right to happiness etc etc sickness infringes these rights.

You're thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which has no standing in law, even though it's wicked cool.

[rvg]

Well??

Well what?

[gaelic cowboy]

Well what?

How much liberty do you want or need to get.











On an related point but not aimed at yourself RVG to be honest I find a lot of this individual liberty stuff to be pure guff, if you ask me most the people who are saying it are not actually libertarians at all.

Usually it's some GOP reactionary/plutocrat who goes about using there individual liberty as a cover to protect X.

A farmer in Iowa thinks his subsidy is reward for self reliance and protection of X so he calls himself libertarian. Thats all well and good till he goes out and votes to prevent or curb welfare for poor people in the nation as a whole how is that libertarian.

Incidently who was the .ORG member that said they copped the GOP is not actually libertarian and really use the term to fool libertarian voters into givin em the tick.

[rvg]

How much liberty do you want or need to get.

You gotta be more specific.

On an related point but not aimed at yourself RVG to be honest I find a lot of this individual liberty stuff to be pure guff, if you ask me most the people who are saying it are not actually libertarians at all.

Usually it's some GOP reactionary/plutocrat who goes about using there individual liberty as a cover to protect X.

A farmer in Iowa thinks his subsidy is reward for self reliance and protection of X so he calls himself libertarian. Thats all well and good till he goes out and votes to prevent or curb welfare for poor people in the nation as a whole how is that libertarian.

Incidently who was the .ORG member that said they copped the GOP is not actually libertarian and really use the term to fool libertarian voters into givin em the tick.

I do not consider myself a libertarian nor do I belong to the GOP. I oppose Obamacare not out of some partisan reasons but purely based on the reasons discussed earlier in this thread.

[gaelic cowboy]

You gotta be more specific.

Exactly how can you be specific on this issue if liberty is decided by the individual only. Thats why even our liberty is decided by common good so that were all of us protected even if we dont want it.

I do not consider myself a libertarian nor do I belong to the GOP.

By the way I didnt say you were a GOP supporter nor a libertarian.

however you have to admit you have being framing your answers through the ideal of individual liberty so I feel I gotta ask you what you believe that really means for healthcare.

Usually people fire an exocet of healthcare is not a right and think this finishes the argument like a sunk Belgrano.

Me I dont see it that way at all you dont have the right to limit peoples access to healthcare just because you dont want to pay for a common good. If we all started deciding what common goods were willing to allow how long till there coming for the army or police too.

[rvg]

Exactly how can you be specific on this issue if liberty is decided by the individual only. Thats why even our liberty is decided by common good so that were all of us protected even if we dont want it.

If you want a general answer, then I only want one specific freedom: freedom to live my life as I see fit without needless interference from the government. That is all.

Me I dont see it that way at all you dont have the right to limit peoples access to healthcare just because you dont want to pay for a common good. If we all started deciding what common goods were willing to allow how long till there coming for the army or police too.

I'm not limiting anyone's access to anything. It's the government that is trying to force me to buy stuff. That is what I resent. Want health insurance? Okay, go ahead and buy it. Don't want it? Fine by me, it is none of my business. What I do not appreciate is Uncle Sam obligating me to buy something.

[Lemur]

Want health insurance? Okay, go ahead and buy it. Don't want it? Fine by me, it is none of my business.

Except that it is your business, obviously, because you and I are on the hook for both the uninsured care given in emergencies and the overall lost productivity when treatable conditions remain untreated.

It's all of our business, hence the way I keep referring back to the "common good."

The only way we could really divorce ourselves from healthcare for others would be if we, as a society, decided it was fine for the uninsured to die in the streets and so forth. And I do not believe even the staunchest libertarian has the heart for that. We are not going to go to the necessary extreme to allow a market-based/Social Darwinism system to work. We, as a society, want certain decent minimums met in terms of healthcare. So this inevitably falls into the common good realm, much like roads and national defense.

[rvg]

Except that it is your business, obviously, because you and I are on the hook for both the uninsured care given in emergencies and the overall lost productivity when treatable conditions remain untreated.

My taxes go to cover some of that, yes. I consider that to be a lesser evil.

[PanzerJaeger]

Ganked from the GOP thread:


This is interesting—to which models are you referring? I'd like to read up a bit more on the alternatives. (Since we're all history nerds to greater or lesser degrees: Here's the original Heritage Foundation rollout for their conservative proposal of an "individual mandate." Wheels in the sky, keep on turnin' ...)

• Switzerland
• Taiwan
• Germany
• Netherlands
• France
• Japan (although the government probably spends too little)

The NHS is a mediocre, and in many ways antiquated, single payer system with distorted priorities. It's only really good at cutting costs quickly when funding levels are changed, but quality suffers accordingly.

Many Americans in favor of reform pine for the NHS because it is the most familiar single payer system most are aware of. However, whether one prefers to replace our current system with a mandate plus private insurance scheme such as Obamacare or a pure single payer scheme, there are far superior models to choose from.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My taxes go to cover some of that, yes. I consider that to be a lesser evil.

Lets just hope you never have to use your own healthcare system, eh?

Just tell God you can't afford to have cancer, I'm sure he'll give you a miracle.

[rvg]

Lets just hope you never have to use your own healthcare system, eh?

Just tell God you can't afford to have cancer, I'm sure he'll give you a miracle.

I have health insurance, TYVM. No need to worry for me.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have health insurance, TYVM. No need to worry for me.

And it will cover everything. Pretty sure only the Army and the Fed get fully comp. What if you get that obscure kind of bowl cancer, or your daughter is born with that deformity in her feet that only affects about 100 people in the entire world?

Will you still be so happy?

What if you get laid off?

[Papewaio]

Liberty is not anarchy or absolute freedom, it is freedom under the laws of the land.

My freedoms, my liberty, my ability to pursue freedom, my access to free speech are all enhanced by having a healthy life. As a member of society, my abilities are all enhanced by my societies abilities.

My health is an intrinsic part of my liberty and happiness. I feel happier around healthy people, my health is safer around healthy people. We on the whole find healthy people more attractive.

I take public transport on the double decker trains in Sydney. My quality of health is greatly enhanced knowing that my fellow travelers are not carrying an easily transmitted airborne disease. Sure I do get the common cold, but I can easily access flu shots if I ever feel the need to enhance my immune system.

Australia has a federally funded Medicare system. Those who are on the equivalent to social security get most of their meds at a vastly subsidized rate. Those too ill to work get a pension.

All workers pay Medicare at 1.5%, those over a threshold must either choose a private health care fund or pay an extra 1% to Medicare. Even with payment of private health you can still mix and match with public options. As an individual you have a choice, as a rich one you are encouraged but not made to pay your own way.

States provide the public hospitals and staff. Rebates for Medicare expenses are payed to individuals by the federal government. If I go to a GP or a specialist, some if not all of that cost will be covered and it can be deposited electronically into my account.

[HoreTore]

Some way up, someone claimed that health care is not a right. I direct you to the declaration of human rights, article 25:

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a25

Healthcare IS a right. And the declaration of human rights stands above any and all constitutions, period.

[Tuuvi]

Some way up, someone claimed that health care is not a right. I direct you to the declaration of human rights, article 25:

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a25

Healthcare IS a right. And the declaration of human rights stands above any and all constitutions, period.

The declaration of human rights is all fine and dandy, but who voted for it? I'd prefer it was democratic before it trumps any and all constitutions.


I see that some of you are equating being against the individual mandate to being against universal healthcare. The problem with the individual mandate is that it forces people to buy insurance from private companies. I can't speak for rvg, but as for myself I'm against the individual mandate but I want universal healthcare. I'd rather pay higher taxes to the government, which is supposed to exist for my benefit, to receive healthcare than to be forced to buy insurance for someone else's profit.

[Lemur]

I can't speak for rvg, but as for myself I'm against the individual mandate but I want universal healthcare. I'd rather pay higher taxes to the government, which is supposed to exist for my benefit, to receive healthcare than to be forced to buy insurance for someone else's profit.

Actually, if you take a gander through the thread, that's where a lot of us are ending up.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The declaration of human rights is all fine and dandy, but who voted for it? I'd prefer it was democratic before it trumps any and all constitutions.


I see that some of you are equating being against the individual mandate to being against universal healthcare. The problem with the individual mandate is that it forces people to buy insurance from private companies. I can't speak for rvg, but as for myself I'm against the individual mandate but I want universal healthcare. I'd rather pay higher taxes to the government, which is supposed to exist for my benefit, to receive healthcare than to be forced to buy insurance for someone else's profit.

If memory serves, the "Individual Mandate" is the result of Republicans refusing to allow a public option - which would have driven most private health insurers out od business in a few decades, if not sooner.

[Lemur]

Yeah, that's right, the public option was a vain attempt to get Republicans onboard, since they objected so vehemently to the public option. The (naive) thinking was that since the mandate derived from the Heritage Foundation and Romneycare, they wouldn't fight it like hell. Which was obviously incorrect.

I'm getting the impression that GOP leadership really doesn't have a plan. They're cool with the status quo ante, even if it's financially unsustainable. But you know the economics saying — things that cannot continue indefinitely ... don't. Best to think ahead.

[Xiahou]

I agree that seems to be the issue. I just find it strange to accept that the federal government has the authority to compel people indirectly to buy services - for example, to pay taxes to buy defence, welfare, medicare, etc - but to challenge its authority to compel people to buy them directly.

Our federal government has enumerated powers- they are not without limit. The fig leaf of authority for the health insurance mandate is something called the commerce clause which simply states: [The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;

I think that's a bit of a stretch to apply it so.... Actually, I think the founding fathers would be spinning in their graves if they knew how the clause was being abused.

[Greyblades]

At this point if you attached a generator to ben franklin's coffin he'd power your entire eastern seaboard.

[rvg]

Healthcare IS a right. And the declaration of human rights stands above any and all constitutions, period.

*channels the spirit of Tribesman*



bollocks

[econ21]

Our federal government has enumerated powers- they are not without limit.

So this is an issue of federal power rather than about the individual freedom vs general government interference? It's fine for Massachuetts to mandate you to buy brocoli but not for the federal government? (That's not a rhetorical question.)