North Carolina Passes Amendment Banning Same-sex Unions

[Kralizec]

Bull. This was bull years ago and is bull today. The verdict is still out on the Born that way assumption. Its still just a guess and most studies just mark their results and allow you to determine what is likely. I do like your willingness to just wing it, though.

Nope. Since 1989, possibly before that, there's been scientific proof of neurological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. And this has been confirmed in more recent researches.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Funny most of those thing condeming homosexuality also condem adultery and divorce.

Yet, nary a peep.

Nary a peep!?

[Whacker]

Nary a peep!?

http://www.marshmallowpeeps.com/products/easter

[Sasaki Kojiro]

http://www.marshmallowpeeps.com/products/easter

We should make that music play automatically in the backroom.

[Whacker]

We should make that music play automatically in the backroom.

This always struck me as far more appropriate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Funny most of those thing condeming homosexuality also condem adultery and divorce.

Yet, nary a peep.

One must learn to seperate his religous morals from his secular ones. A society is built upon compromise

I'm pretty sure I've said that divorce is too available - and that adulterers should be prosecuted for perjury.

Nope. Since 1989, possibly before that, there's been scientific proof of neurological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. And this has been confirmed in more recent researches.

While this is true - it begs the question of why the population of people engaging in homsexual sex is so low today and why it was higher historically. It seems unlikely we have all but bread it out in the last 2,000 years - so the only alternative is to conclude that the neurological differences are not deterministic.

[Montmorency]

It is my firm belief that individuals who hold incommensurable philosophical positions and worldviews should fight each other to the death whenever possible.

Explosive vests for those tight moments will be furnished.

[Whacker]

It is my firm belief that individuals who hold incommensurable philosophical positions and worldviews should fight each other to the death whenever possible.

Explosive vests for those tight moments will be furnished.

I.... agree with this. Completely.

So, who wants to go first? PVC or Tuffstuff? No ranged weapons, name your poison. I pick the venue.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

While this is true - it begs the question of why the population of people engaging in homsexual sex is so low today and why it was higher historically. It seems unlikely we have all but bread it out in the last 2,000 years - so the only alternative is to conclude that the neurological differences are not deterministic.

If I recall correctly psychopathy has a genetic factor but requires a certain kind of upbringing to manifest itself.

This is another interesting area that I think gets shafted due to the way we debate this issue.

Anyway, it's quite possible that there is a genetic factor for all kinds of unusual sexual preferences.

[Kralizec]

I'm pretty sure I've said that divorce is too available - and that adulterers should be prosecuted for perjury.



While this is true - it begs the question of why the population of people engaging in homsexual sex is so low today and why it was higher historically. It seems unlikely we have all but bread it out in the last 2,000 years - so the only alternative is to conclude that the neurological differences are not deterministic.

It doesn't have to be a genetic cause (and even if it were; it could be a recessive gene). I think one explanation that's quite in vogue nowadays is hormonal fluctuations in the mother's womb, but I'm no expert - or even a particulary interested layman.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I.... agree with this. Completely.

So, who wants to go first? PVC or Tuffstuff? No ranged weapons, name your poison. I pick the venue.

I don't believe in solving problems by violence - or gladiatorial combat.

It doesn't have to be a genetic cause (and even if it were; it could be a recessive gene). I think one explanation that's quite in vogue nowadays is hormonal fluctuations in the mother's womb, but I'm no expert - or even a particulary interested layman.

The problem with this approach is that it is highly regressive, it medicalises homosexuality. It's notable that exactly this medicalisation used to be held by the establishment until 1989 when the first biological links were actually found. At that point the Gay-right lobby went from, "we should be free to choose who we love" to "we were born this way".

More importantly, if homosexuality has a pathology it can be modified, i.e. homosexuals can be made heterosexual - a claim violently denied by the rights-lobby.

I know Frag wants me to accept I'm a narcicist so I'll seek treatment - because that's a medical condition and he presumably thinks I'll be happier.

If I said the same to a homosexual I would not get a positive response.

[Montmorency]

More importantly, if homosexuality has a pathology it can be modified, i.e. homosexuals can be made heterosexual - a claim violently denied by the rights-lobby.

In the same way that sensation of pain, or of anger, or individuality, or religious belief could hypothetically be modified. I'm surprised you are going there.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In the same way that sensation of pain, or of anger, or individuality, or religious belief could hypothetically be modified. I'm surprised you are going there.

If the pathology is deterministic.

I'm not aware of a pathology for religious belief, I know it's possible to initiate something very like a minor "religious experience", such as one achieves through medatitive prayer - but that experience is still subjective. When they stuck Richard Dawkins under the God Helmet he said it itched.

I'm not going there - I'm following the train of thought.

[Montmorency]

You were only discussing it in terms it of psychiatrically treatable mental pathology?

Oh...

Hehehe

[ICantSpellDawg]

Funny most of those thing condeming homosexuality also condem adultery and divorce.

Yet, nary a peep.

One must learn to seperate his religous morals from his secular ones. A society is built upon compromise

What do you mean? I don't accept those things either.
Also, I mis-wrote. I meant the new testament, not gospels. There don't seem to be any references in the gospels to homosexuality.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Nope. Since 1989, possibly before that, there's been scientific proof of neurological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. And this has been confirmed in more recent researches.

Links?
I remember a study where Identical twins have the same sexual orientation just over 50% of the time. Same DNA sequences, same wombs, usually similar upbringing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology...al_orientation

You had better go and delete a few of those wiki entries, they are spreading vicious lies about your unscientific faith.

[The Stranger]

What do you mean? I don't accept those things either.
Also, I mis-wrote. I meant the new testament, not gospels. There don't seem to be any references in the gospels to homosexuality.

yes he means that you dont accept that either :P

although i dont see why its funny that adultery is on there because most people dont accept it (when happening to themselves anyway XD)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You were only discussing it in terms it of psychiatrically treatable mental pathology?

Oh...

Hehehe

Oh yes?

Why don't you share with the group?

Unfortunately - those twin studies seem to indicate there is not a biological factor which is deterministic.

[Kralizec]

Links?
I remember a study where Identical twins have the same sexual orientation just over 50% of the time. Same DNA sequences, same wombs, usually similar upbringing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology...al_orientation

You had better go and delete a few of those wiki entries, they are spreading vicious lies about your unscientific faith.

That only discredits the theory that homosexuality only has a genetic cause. The wiki article you quoted even mentions that identical twins do not necessarily receive the same influx of hormones during pregnancies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochorionic_twins

I was mostly thinking about a Dutch researcher called Dick Swaab when I wrote my previous post; he is mentioned several times in that wiki.

[Strike For The South]

Nary a peep!?

I'm pretty sure I've said that divorce is too available - and that adulterers should be prosecuted for perjury.

What do you mean? I don't accept those things either.
Also, I mis-wrote. I meant the new testament, not gospels. There don't seem to be any references in the gospels to homosexuality.

Within the law, yes. The pulpit is another matter entierly. Plenty of God fearing Christians get divorces and cheat. Not that I judge them, to err is human of course. But to claim to that we need to adhere to Gods moral code within our laws does not mean you can pick and choose which of those laws you wish to apply to the civil code. Being gay is a minority lifestyle and it is much eaiser to claim moral high ground, applying Gods law, when the group is small.

PVC and TuffStuff are not the bulk of people pushing against this, and in my view should be pushing harder for tougher laws against divorce and audultery as the two things are certainly more damging and pervelant to the traditional family

[The Stranger]

That only discredits the theory that homosexuality only has a genetic cause. The wiki article you quoted even mentions that identical twins do not necessarily receive the same influx of hormones during pregnancies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochorionic_twins

I was mostly thinking about a Dutch researcher called Dick Swaab when I wrote my previous post; he is mentioned several times in that wiki.

hes apparantly been threathened with death by gay right activists for that study :P

[Kralizec]

Not sure if there were any death threats, but it's true that some of them (in particular the COC) weren't happy about his research. They thought that they were gay by choice, and were proud of the choice. Or something like that.

I remember he gave a speech at my university several years ago. One of the things he found out back in 1990 was the difference in size of the hypothalamus in gay males. He then showed a bunch of contact advertisements he found in papers and such in the early 90-ies; such as "Man with huge hypothalamus is looking for..."

[Ironside]

Oh yes?

Why don't you share with the group?

Unfortunately - those twin studies seem to indicate there is not a biological factor which is deterministic.

Unless you're going to argue that over 50% are secretly gay, then it still has a significant biological factor.

Similar to left handedness (or right handedness) that's totally a concious choise... 2 left handed parents still only got less than 50% of their children being left handed, far from 100%, but much higher than the population average. Having one laft handed and one right handed identical twin is not that uncommon, way more common that having 2 left handed one for example.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Unless you're going to argue that over 50% are secretly gay, then it still has a significant biological factor.

Similar to left handedness (or right handedness) that's totally a concious choise... 2 left handed parents still only got less than 50% of their children being left handed, far from 100%, but much higher than the population average. Having one laft handed and one right handed identical twin is not that uncommon, way more common that having 2 left handed one for example.

Sorry?

No, identical twins are identical in felhandedness - "mirror twins" occur when the egg splits slightly later, and they mirror in everything, right down to moles and rogue eyebrow hairs/crooked teeth. Nobody actuall knows what causes people to favour one hand over another, one theory is that every left-hander is a surviving twin.

Different process.

If the genetic factors were deterministic, i.e. if it "caused gayness" then you would expect a much higher correlation

[ICantSpellDawg]

Within the law, yes. The pulpit is another matter entierly. Plenty of God fearing Christians get divorces and cheat. Not that I judge them, to err is human of course. But to claim to that we need to adhere to Gods moral code within our laws does not mean you can pick and choose which of those laws you wish to apply to the civil code. Being gay is a minority lifestyle and it is much eaiser to claim moral high ground, applying Gods law, when the group is small.

PVC and TuffStuff are not the bulk of people pushing against this, and in my view should be pushing harder for tougher laws against divorce and audultery as the two things are certainly more damging and pervelant to the traditional family

You cant see the difference between celebrating a vice and removing laws that punish it.? Im not pushing for those things to be illegal, but i would push hard against them being grounds for special recognition in law. Recognizing that vice exists and that people have the free will to decide to engage in it if different than giving someone thousands of dollars in tax breaks and a special status for it. For the lateryou require my complicity, for htfor the formeryou just a excercise your rights. Im trying to find a middle ground that both preserves the rights of individuals to live there lives by making the choices theyd like without draggingme down with them

[The Stranger]

Sorry?

No, identical twins are identical in felhandedness - "mirror twins" occur when the egg splits slightly later, and they mirror in everything, right down to moles and rogue eyebrow hairs/crooked teeth. Nobody actuall knows what causes people to favour one hand over another, one theory is that every left-hander is a surviving twin.

Different process.

If the genetic factors were deterministic, i.e. if it "caused gayness" then you would expect a much higher correlation

im bipolar, how does that happen? :O and bisexual?

[Fragony]

im bipolar, how does that happen? :O and bisexual?

No you are just being incredibly normal, any internet forum has seen it a ultraextrathousand times before. That is why it's boring. It's not smart, don't let anyone tell you otherwise

[The Stranger]

No you are just being incredibly normal, any internet forum has seen it a ultraextrathousand times before. That is why it's boring. It's not smart, don't let anyone tell you otherwise

lol frag, you have some issues... no one was talking about smart or special -_-

go play with your kittens

btw what did the kittens give you for mothers day? XD

[Ironside]

Sorry?

No, identical twins are identical in felhandedness - "mirror twins" occur when the egg splits slightly later, and they mirror in everything, right down to moles and rogue eyebrow hairs/crooked teeth. Nobody actuall knows what causes people to favour one hand over another, one theory is that every left-hander is a surviving twin.

Different process.

If the genetic factors were deterministic, i.e. if it "caused gayness" then you would expect a much higher correlation

Hm, the "mirror twins" was new to me. Shame that I couldn't find any data taking that into consideration.

Anyway, my point about left handedness running in the family, while having far from a 100% correlation still stands. It has evidently a genetical factor (possibly an indirect one), but it's not the sole factor and it aren't a choise for the vast majority.

[Papewaio]

First genes are machines with racks of switches that can be turned on and off. Expecting the exact same outcome with the same genes is like expecting the same software on a PC just because they have the same hardware.

Add to it a self learning brain and you have a truly complex situation.

Humans are wonderfully complex. Gene components work in a quantum world. I would be more surprised that all twins with the same genes have 100% the same preferences. Humans have more options hen a six sided die.

Also can anyone explain why more younger siblings are homosexual? That would explain the declining numbers given smaller family sizes quite neatly.