Irony in a Chicken Sandwich

[PanzerJaeger]

Profits from Chick Fil A have gone into anti-LBGT legislation, that is a fact. However, MRD was pointing out the fact that most employees of Chick Fil A have no employment prospect and especially the situation at the moment in America it is very difficult to find work, so people usually grab the nearest thing to employment, get paid ridiculously low wages and toll away just so they have some money to put food on the table. Majority of these people do not have the opportunity or choice of working elsewhere.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat that I was not refering to the minimum wage kids that sling their greasy slop. My first post on the matter clearly refered to 'middle management' and above. Those people do have other options.

Can you prove otherwise?

As I said, it is well documented.

For two days in early March 2009, Ugandans flocked to the Kampala Triangle Hotel for the Family Life Network's "Seminar on Exposing the Homosexuals' Agenda." The seminar's very title revealed its claim: LGBT people and activists are engaged in a well thought-out plan to take over the world. The U.S. culture wars had come to Africa with a vengeance.

To put on the conference, the Uganda-based Family Life Network – led by Stephen Langa with the goal of "restoring" traditional family values and morals in Uganda – teamed with two U.S. hatemongers from the Christian Right, Holocaust revisionist Scott Lively and Dan Schmierer of the ex-gay group Exodus International.[1] Vocal opposition in international circles did not stop the country's high profile religious leaders, parliamentarians, police officers, teachers, and concerned parents from attending. Indeed, parliamentary action to wage war on gays was on the conference agenda. It was not enough that homosexuality is illegal in Uganda. As someone stated from the podium,

[The parliament] feels it is necessary to draft a new law that deals comprehensively with the issue of homosexuality and …takes into account the international gay agenda….Right now there is a proposal that a new law be drafted.[2]

The unsuspecting audience heard Lively promote his book, The Pink Swastika, and his argument that not only are gays seeking to take over the world, but they also threaten society by causing higher rates of divorce, child abuse, and HIV/AIDS. Legalizing homosexuality is on par with accepting "molestation of children or having sex with animals," he said. As Lively puts it, LGBT issues cannot be considered human rights issues. "The people coming to Africa now and advancing the idea that human rights serves the homosexual interests are absolutely wrong," he said. "Many of them are outright liars and they are manipulating history; they are manipulating facts in order to push their political agenda." Lively even tarred abortion rights as "a product of the gay philosophy" meant to promote sexual promiscuity in order to "destroy the family." In sum, he warned, U.S. homosexuals are out to recruit young people into homosexual lifestyles so they must be stopped.

[rvg]

As I said, it is well documented.

Soooo, criticizing homosexual behavior == kill t3h gh3y?

The guy is not fond of homosexuals and is not afraid to admit it. So what? He's not the one who drafted the Uganda law, nor did he incite any violence against homosexuals. If Ugandan parliament is full of retards, that's not his fault.

[PanzerJaeger]

Soooo, criticizing homosexual behavior == kill t3h gh3y?

The guy is not fond of homosexuals and is not afraid to admit it. So what? He's not the one who drafted the Uganda law, nor did he incite any violence against homosexuals. If Ugandan parliament is full of retards, that's not his fault.

There is none so blind as he who will not see. When you knowingly and willfully accept an invitation to speak about the evils of the gay lifestyle at a conference where legislation to kill gay people is on the agenda, I think it is safe to say that you are complicit in such legislation. These guys were invited to provide the 'scientific' basis for the bill, which included meetings with the parliamentarians about the bill, and they gladly accepted.

That is some of the whackiest I've ever heard. Some people are nuts.

They would be doing exactly the same thing in the US if they thought they could get away with it.

My response was to your comments that you do not see how any grown up could choose a career at Chic Fil A. Not everyone can afford to walk away from employment because their bosses politics appalls them. If that were the case, we would lose 50% of our federal workers every four years. I happen to find mass scale financial crimes and cheats just as appalling as people who advocate the discrimination against others, because of the far reaching and permanent effects it has on people's lives and the future of the country, but I would never belittle someone for toiling awayfor Bank Of America or AIG, no matter how many lives they have destroyed. I do, however, refuse tot ake insurance cases from AIG because I can afford to.

The oringinal gay violence story you linked had nothing to do with Chic Fil A or the christian organizations. You may think it does, just like Fallout 3 made that guy shoot up the movie theater. Go ahead and make the connection if you want. Of course there are Americans who listen to these groups and act on their impulses, just like there are plenty of people who are anti-gay but not the least bit religious. Just like there are people who do things so idiotic and stupid we constantly walk a fine line of having or thoughts policed and our freedoms skimmed because we have to protect the masses from the savage few.

Regarding their activities in foriegn countries, with people who are ignorant, illiterate and superstitiously religious: Appalling isn't it? Just like so many of the other things US companies, political groups and the government itself supports. I am curious where this passion of yours was when we had ROEs in Iraq that advocated shooting anyone with a cell phone after an IED exploded, when we put people in jail for a non violent drug crime, when we bombed the civilians in Belgrade to avoid fighting the Serbs on the battlefield, and when we gave corporations the rights of a human being to buy and sell US poloiticians at their whim? I dunno, maybe the passion is there and I just missed it.

I am well aware of the garbage this organization puts out and the things they support, and would never associate with them. And I have said time and time again that Cathy is an idiot, and would never survive if he had share holders.

Nothing I saw on Tony Perkins list of quotes was all that worse than the crap spewed back and forth between the parties and their pundits, to include the stuff about the military. Typical American loudmouth. Carry on.

So this guy is supporting hate groups by proxy. Nothing new here. I seem to recall there were Republican congressmen who were ddeply involved with the Kill The Gay Ugandans issue, yet they continue to serve in office. Why aren't you attacking the people who voted for Jim Inhofe?

You seem to think I am completely unaware of what is going on and a "flowershaped meringues" when in fact the only thing I took issue with was your disdain for someone's choice of employment in a period of 9% unemployment and the worst economy of our life. So I will leave you to it.

First of all, the idea that because I haven’t taken a vocal stand, in the backroom, against every unethical action undertaken by every organization that has ever existed means that I have no place to speak out against any unethical action is patently absurd. I suggest that you rethink that one.

Also, your comparison to AIG et al is similarly poorly thought out. What those financial companies did was greedy, reckless, unethical, and certainly very damaging. However, getting caught up in the creation of an asset bubble involves completely different motivations than donating to hate groups. AIG executives did not hate the American people, and were not acting out of malice – only self-interest. Chick Fil A gets nothing out of its donations other than the satisfaction that they are hurting gay people.

Second, this is not 2009 anymore. People working as executives in a large corporation like Chick Fil A have plenty of other employment options. Please spare me the sob story about 9% unemployment, as it has no bearing on the people being discussed.

Third, ‘Nothing I saw on Tony Perkins list of quotes was all that worse than the crap spewed back and forth between the parties and their pundits, to include the stuff about the military. Typical American loudmouth. Carry on.’ You must be joking. Not even in the deepest, darkest corners of MSNBC or Fox Business are such things uttered. Here’s a thought exercise for you. Replace ‘homosexuals’ with ‘blacks’ or ‘Jews’ and see how easy such statements are to shrug off.

Fourth, ‘So this guy is supporting hate groups by proxy. Nothing new here.’ LOL. What a pathetic attitude. I’m sorry, maybe I’ve become a bleeding heart, but if I were to find out that the organization I work for donates to groups that are equivalent to the KKK, I would seek other work. Your assertion that all companies do this kind of thing and it’s no big deal is, quite frankly, bullshit. This is not normal corporate behavior, and there are plenty of companies that do not engage in such activity, most actually.

Finally, while I did not directly call you a "flowershaped meringue", I would like to apologize. While RVG was attempting to mock me (in his own adorable way), he was very correct – my passion on this issue is very strong. It was uncalled for, and I am sorry.

[rvg]

There is none so blind as he who will not see. When you knowingly and willfully accept an invitation to speak about the evils of the gay lifestyle at a conference where legislation to kill gay people is on the agenda, I think it is safe to say that you are complicit in such legislation. These guys were invited to provide the 'scientific' basis for the bill, which included meetings with the parliamentarians about the bill, and they gladly accepted.

Right, because one thing that an African parliamentary needs before drafting a law is a nod from a white man in a suit. It's convenient to blame the honkey for this one, but ultimately incorrect.

[Lemur]

Right, because one thing that an African parliamentary needs before drafting a law is a nod from a white man in a suit. It's convenient to blame the honkey for this one, but ultimately incorrect.

I don't see where PJ made that argument; he's saying that by confirming and affirming anti-homosexual rhetoric to people who intended to kill homosexuals, Perkins bears some responsibility. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Any neo-colonial Only White People Do Bad Things rhetoric is coming from you, not Panzer.

[rvg]

...by confirming and affirming anti-homosexual rhetoric to people who intended to kill homosexuals, Perkins bears some responsibility.

How? Is Perkins a mind reader? How was he supposed to know that they intended to kill homosexuals? And why is his public disavowing of the Ugandan bill cannot be considered genuine? He said that the spread of homosexuality must be stopped, he never explicitly or implicitly mentioned any sorts of violent methods.

[Lemur]

How? Is Perkins a mind reader? How was he supposed to know that they intended to kill homosexuals? And why is his public disavowing of the Ugandan bill cannot be considered genuine? He said that the spread of homosexuality must be stopped, he never explicitly or implicitly mentioned any sorts of violent methods.

Well, how about a simple rule: When travelling to a place where the price of machetes spikes during election season, don't use eliminationist rhetoric. That would keep everybody on the correct side of the line.

I find it very hard to believe that you would be so understanding and forgiving if a different group were targeted.

Let's say, for example, that a prominent leftist from the USA traveled to Cambodia and gave a speech about how landowners were the enemy and should be eliminated. Then, surprise, landowners are killed. In this scenario, do you think the person giving the speech should feel, oh, I don't know, shame and horror?

[Fragony]

How? Is Perkins a mind reader? How was he supposed to know that they intended to kill homosexuals?

He should have known and could have known that some will actually do such a thing

[PanzerJaeger]

Right, because one thing that an African parliamentary needs before drafting a law is a nod from a white man in a suit. It's convenient to blame the honkey for this one, but ultimately incorrect.

A white man in a suit? I do not know what to do with this. Please respond to arguments I have actually made in the future.

Never said that. And the idea that I have not flown off the handle and up your butt every time you hold an opinion that I disagree with confuses me as to where this sudden strike of anger is coming from. There are equally pissy things going on in and around this country than a loud mouth's financial support for the anti gay movement, so right now I am trying to figure out what the oppression/travesty exchange rate is for, say, gay dudes in Uganda vs Dow Chemical's cancer babies. This would make an interesting poker game.

My anger stemmed from your minimalization of the threat facing gay people from these groups, which I found uninformed and somewhat grating. These groups operate under the guise of 'Christian Family Values' to marginalize gay people in ways that extend far beyond the marriage issue. What these groups have or are trying to have passed through GOP state legislatures will have a far more damaging impact on some of the most vulnerable people in our society, but that gets no coverage. I would gladly let marraige go if it meant that these monsters would leave gay children alone. No hate group in modern America, whether it be the KKK or the FRC, can openly advocate violence, as legal precedent has been established to hold them accountable for such rhetoric. However, you are sadly mistaken if you honestly believe that these groups are not directly involved in anti-gay violence across the country. Tony Perkins is the 'politically correct' face of the movement. The things they say behind closed church doors are far worse.

Again, I apologize for my anger. This thread was a predictable mistake.

So intent is more important than outcome? The lesser of evil intents is it? Because no one ever died from stress induced illnesses, or committed suicide, or flew off the deep end, or committed crimes against society because they had everything ripped from them and the people responsible not only did not lose their jobs, but were rewarded and excused. And no certainly no "greedy, reckless, unethical, and certainly very damaging" actions (and the state's failure to hold them accountable) have never, ever resulted in people being hurt or killed in the workplace. Ever.

So, if it's all about the Benjamins, that makes it less bad. Got it.

Intent is obviously more important than outcome in judging the severity of an action. Outcome is a wholly separate issue. It is enshrined in our understanding of justice through the concept of degree. If I run you over in my car by accident while texting, it would be declared manslaughter. If I planned to run you over, it would be murder. You would be dead either way.

I would submit that intentionally trying to hurt people based on nothing more than hate is far worse than getting caught up in reckless risk taking and greed. As egregious as those Wall Street bankers' actions were, they were not intentionally trying to hurt anyone.

Huge difference between middle management and executives, and I would dare say that NO, middle management type may very well NOT have other immediate career options, assuming your definition of MM is the in-store managers and assistants and franchise owners. Maybe an "executive" quitting over this will get him or her some brownie points on the resume and maybe even some positive PR with the press, but to suggest that a store manager or assistant can just bail on his job and find another pronto is a bit of a stretch, and to think some guy who spent a quarter mill getting franchised will just walk away from his investment is also crazy. Ultimately it is their own fault for not doing better research on the team with which they signed on, but I'm not going to lambast them for it. No SOB story here, and it very much has bearing on the story because if it were not for the piss poor economy I am sure more of CFAs employees might have already bailed. Were I a headhunter for the QSR industry, I would be reaching out to CFA employees, assuming there were jobs to be filled.

We will just have to disagree here, as I have always been under the impression that competent fast food managers, and even assistant managers, are always in high demand. I would not consider them 'middle management' in a corporation the size of Chick Fil A anyway. DMs, RVPs, et cetera more accurately fill that role, not anyone on site.

Really? Because I seem to recall tales of the military being destroyed and troops being killed when DADT was repealed. I seem to recall this guy on MSNBC name Kieth Olbermann and good old Murtha who liked to paint combat troops with a very broad brush and call them all murderers. I seem to recall Glenn Beck thinking all muslims are extrememists and backing a hold on immigrants, which could very well stoke the fires of crimes against immigrants. I seem to recall a PResident who first denied hearing, then later changed it to "hearing but disagreeing with" his pastor's Kill Whitey rhetoric.

Oh, and there are a disturbing number of members of Congress lining up to support CFA as we speak, and FOX Host Mike Huckabee was behind the CFA appreciation day rallies.

Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond practically died in office. Tom Delay was a known crook and thief yet served term after term because he brought money to his district and only resigned so he could prepare to defend himself over his appalling participation in crimes against the country and against migrant workers in the Mrianne Islands that included forced abortions.

As stated before, Jim Inhofe has been a very vocal supporter of FRC, and did not sever ties when he was "informed" of the issue in Uganda. The FRC held a rallies in 2010 in which Gingirch, Santorum and bunched of others gave speeches. The FRC was already up to no good in Africa then, this was no secret. This is not a new issue. Where have you been?

I would love to see a video of Olbermann calling all US troops murderers. If anyone ever has, it would be him. None of the rest of what you mention are actually examples of people saying the kind of things Tony Perkins has about gays.

No, you're right, most companies don't donate to hate groups. But they do donate to causes that many people disagree with, or to figures that in turn use the funds for appalling measures. Again, back to the guys mentioned above.

This reminds me of the sudden interest everyone had for Joseph Koney, whose exploits I have been following for the better part of my life, wondering why no one does anything about it, and then when I responded luke warm to the sudden surge of interest this year, suddenly I am the heartless sonofabitch? I think not.

I felt that your comments went beyond cynicism and strayed into minimalism of a particularly abhorrent movement. Maybe I misunderstood you, or maybe you are trying to turn this into a broader argument about AIG and/or Joseph Koney that never actually existed. I'm too exhausted tonight to figure it out.

And please, stop with the KKK stuff. Really. Huge difference.

Actually, groups like the FRC are remarkably similar to the modern KKK. The fight to preserve white culture/Christian Values follows the same basic modus oporandi and appeals to the same core group of people in America. Nobody gets lynched anymore. It is all about hearts and minds these days, but that doesn't mean the hate is not just as potent.

Why would PJ spend so much time obsessing over these things? He's either a modern William Wilberforce or Frederick Douglas; the smart money is on Douglas.

I think I understand what you are saying, but I am not sure.

[Beskar]

I think I understand what you are saying, but I am not sure.

From what I am grasping, he is basically saying "You are a heterosexual with a deep passion for the equal rights of LGBT citizens" (the William Wilberforce) or "You are a LGBT citizen yourself promoting for equal rights" (the Frederick Douglas). But both of these are talking about the Slave Trade in their respective times.

[Fragony]

I don't think our Panzer is heterosexual, just saying. And it wouldn't mean anything to me really.

[Major Robert Dump]

I really think turning this thread into a guessing game for PJs sexual orientation is pretty tacky, be it kidding or not. I realize we all poke fun at each other in various sexual ways and use lots of gay undertones in our exchanges, but I just don't think it belongs in this particular thread.

@PJ
You are right. I am minimalizing it in terms of CONUS. It's not misinformation, it's apathy and amusement. While there are definitive cases of right and wrong in this entire ordeal, the sky is, in fact, not falling in the good ole USA, and the comparison of the gay rights movement to the black civil rights movement I happen to find absurd. These people may very well engage in "off the record" condoning of violence behind closed doors, and until it becomes public, it is just that: off the record. It amounts to nothing more than accusations of old white guys in a cigar smoke filled room planning to invade Iraq for the oil. Show us the proof, and we shut them down. Until then, it is politic as usual, so get in line. Picking on vulnerable people is disgusting and a shame. But it is far from an epidemic, and even if it were an epidemic, the FRC is not the only one fanning the flame. Homophobia goes far beyond a person being Christian.

Suggesting that this group is like the KKK is a stretch. Talk all you want about "times are a changin" and that the lynches now are symbolic, not literal. We can apply that standard to virtually everything, and many people do, which is why we get Godwin. Using this rationale I would assume that you are a "constitution as a living document" type of guy, which I would havenever taken you for.

The examples of hateful people I gave go beyond "saying" things about people. You said it yourself: actions go beyond words. Yet they continued to get re elected in the face of terrible things said and done. Over and over again. politics as usual. You say you do not understand the link, while I think I make myself fairly clear. People pick their fights, and I do not understand outrage when the left hand does something but not when it's the right hand. I do't get it. Nut maybe I just think too broadly, like when I pointed out that feminist anti-porn advocates use an argument that defeats their own arguments for abortion-on-demand. No one saw the humor but me. Whatevs

All I am doing is trying to apply the same standards to this little scandal as I do everything else. Just because I am rooting for your side to win, does not mean that when people blow hot air out of their butts that I have to treat it like top-shelf perfume.

[Major Robert Dump]

WE MUST STOP THE GAY VIOLENCE AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS

[Major Robert Dump]

First of all, the idea that because I haven’t taken a vocal stand, in the backroom, against every unethical action undertaken by every organization that has ever existed means that I have no place to speak out against any unethical action is patently absurd. I suggest that you rethink that one.

Never said that. And the idea that I have not flown off the handle and up your butt every time you hold an opinion that I disagree with confuses me as to where this sudden strike of anger is coming from. There are equally pissy things going on in and around this country than a loud mouth's financial support for the anti gay movement, so right now I am trying to figure out what the oppression/travesty exchange rate is for, say, gay dudes in Uganda vs Dow Chemical's cancer babies. This would make an interesting poker game.

Also, your comparison to AIG et al is similarly poorly thought out. What those financial companies did was greedy, reckless, unethical, and certainly very damaging. However, getting caught up in the creation of an asset bubble involves completely different motivations than donating to hate groups. AIG executives did not hate the American people, and were not acting out of malice – only self-interest. Chick Fil A gets nothing out of its donations other than the satisfaction that they are hurting gay people.

So intent is more important than outcome? The lesser of evil intents is it? Because no one ever died from stress induced illnesses, or committed suicide, or flew off the deep end, or committed crimes against society because they had everything ripped from them and the people responsible not only did not lose their jobs, but were rewarded and excused. And no certainly no "greedy, reckless, unethical, and certainly very damaging" actions (and the state's failure to hold them accountable) have never, ever resulted in people being hurt or killed in the workplace. Ever.

So, if it's all about the Benjamins, that makes it less bad. Got it.

Second, this is not 2009 anymore. People working as executives in a large corporation like Chick Fil A have plenty of other employment options. Please spare me the sob story about 9% unemployment, as it has no bearing on the people being discussed.

I have no idea how we got from a girl in the drive thru, to "middle management and above" (post 50) and now to executives.

Huge difference between middle management and executives, and I would dare say that NO, middle management type may very well NOT have other immediate career options, assuming your definition of MM is the in-store managers and assistants and franchise owners. Maybe an "executive" quitting over this will get him or her some brownie points on the resume and maybe even some positive PR with the press, but to suggest that a store manager or assistant can just bail on his job and find another pronto is a bit of a stretch, and to think some guy who spent a quarter mill getting franchised will just walk away from his investment is also crazy. Ultimately it is their own fault for not doing better research on the team with which they signed on, but I'm not going to lambast them for it. No SOB story here, and it very much has bearing on the story because if it were not for the piss poor economy I am sure more of CFAs employees might have already bailed. Were I a headhunter for the QSR industry, I would be reaching out to CFA employees, assuming there were jobs to be filled.

Third, ‘Nothing I saw on Tony Perkins list of quotes was all that worse than the crap spewed back and forth between the parties and their pundits, to include the stuff about the military. Typical American loudmouth. Carry on.’ You must be joking. Not even in the deepest, darkest corners of MSNBC or Fox Business are such things uttered. Here’s a thought exercise for you. Replace ‘homosexuals’ with ‘blacks’ or ‘Jews’ and see how easy such statements are to shrug off.

Really? Because I seem to recall tales of the military being destroyed and troops being killed when DADT was repealed. I seem to recall this guy on MSNBC name Kieth Olbermann and good old Murtha who liked to paint combat troops with a very broad brush and call them all murderers. I seem to recall Glenn Beck thinking all muslims are extrememists and backing a hold on immigrants, which could very well stoke the fires of crimes against immigrants. I seem to recall a PResident who first denied hearing, then later changed it to "hearing but disagreeing with" his pastor's Kill Whitey rhetoric.

Oh, and there are a disturbing number of members of Congress lining up to support CFA as we speak, and FOX Host Mike Huckabee was behind the CFA appreciation day rallies.

Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond practically died in office. Tom Delay was a known crook and thief yet served term after term because he brought money to his district and only resigned so he could prepare to defend himself over his appalling participation in crimes against the country and against migrant workers in the Mrianne Islands that included forced abortions.

As stated before, Jim Inhofe has been a very vocal supporter of FRC, and did not sever ties when he was "informed" of the issue in Uganda. The FRC held a rallies in 2010 in which Gingirch, Santorum and bunched of others gave speeches. The FRC was already up to no good in Africa then, this was no secret. This is not a new issue. Where have you been?

Fourth, ‘So this guy is supporting hate groups by proxy. Nothing new here.’ LOL. What a pathetic attitude. I’m sorry, maybe I’ve become a bleeding heart, but if I were to find out that the organization I work for donates to groups that are equivalent to the KKK, I would seek other work. Your assertion that all companies do this kind of thing and it’s no big deal is, quite frankly, bullshit. This is not normal corporate behavior, and there are plenty of companies that do not engage in such activity, most actually.

You're right. It is pathetic. It comes from not caring anymore.

No, you're right, most companies don't donate to hate groups. But they do donate to causes that many people disagree with, or to figures that in turn use the funds for appalling measures. Again, back to the guys mentioned above.

This reminds me of the sudden interest everyone had for Joseph Koney, whose exploits I have been following for the better part of my life, wondering why no one does anything about it, and then when I responded luke warm to the sudden surge of interest this year, suddenly I am the heartless sonofabitch? I think not.

And please, stop with the KKK stuff. Really. Huge difference.

Finally, while I did not directly call you a "flowershaped meringue", I would like to apologize. While RVG was attempting to mock me (in his own adorable way), he was very correct – my passion on this issue is very strong. It was uncalled for, and I am sorry.

No problem. I get a little swarmy when I think people are attacking the working stiff.

[Visor]

This thread makes me glad I live in Australia, where we have higher minimum wage, and a lower unemployment rate. Though I do see some people who have to work crap shifts for crap money, it certainly isn't as bad as America seems to be.

[Montmorency]

It's somewhat ironic that the only Chick-fil-A in New York State is in Greenwich Village.