Irony in a Chicken Sandwich

[Lemur]

Not true. We'd both get 7 years in jail. See for yourself (at the very bottom): http://www.religiondispatches.org/di...anti-gay_bill/

You are ignoring the "intoxicants" part of the bill, which is not listed in this particular blog, but well-documented.

Also note that under the proposed revision of the bill (the one with less death penalty) you would go to prison for not reporting my "suspected homosexuality" within 24 hours.

I see that most of the conditions for the death penalty are still intact.

[rvg]

You are ignoring the "intoxicants" part of the bill, which is not listed in this particular blog, but well-documented.

Also note that under the proposed revision of the bill (the one with less death penalty) you would go to prison for not reporting my "suspected homosexuality" within 24 hours.

I see that most of the conditions for the death penalty are still intact.

Beer won't qualify. It would have to be a drug according to the letter of the law, and there needs to be a malicious intent.

"...(g) offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex..."

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/15/15609

[Lemur]

Beer won't qualify.

So beer would not fall under the classification of "any drug, matter or thing." Fascinating.

Look, we're getting into the weeds here. I would like to understand what, exactly, you are asserting.

Are you saying that:

1. The Ugandan bill isn't that bad?
2. The FRC did not lobby to prevent censure of the Ugandan bill?
3. Or something else?

[rvg]

So beer would not fall under the classification of "any drug, matter or thing." Fascinating.

You also need the "intent to stupefy." The bill is quite horrible, which is probably why it has not become the law and is unlikely to do so without being heavily amended.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The chick-fil-a deal is just the latest opportunity for political people who have contempt for each other to express it. The left probably got a boost from the "evil corporate food chain" tie in and the right from "free speech/free enterprise/government imposing liberal agenda" tie in. The end result is very naturally a grown man berating a teenage girl on video and thinking he's awesome for it. I doubt most of the chick-fil-a people can find uganda on a map but the other side will work themselves up into a "delicious" outrage imagining hordes of christians seething with gay hatred wishing they could institute the death penalty.

It's disgusting that people run straight from "serious" talk about how to prevent gay suicides one month, to wildly exaggerating the degree to which gay people are hated the next month. Great strategy geniuses.

[Lemur]

The end result is very naturally a grown man berating a teenage girl on video and thinking he's awesome for it.

I would say that fellow's asinine behavior is entirely on him, not on the general political atmosphere. I've seen people break into acts of shocking rudeness for many different reasons. Politics does not need to be invoked.

Great strategy geniuses.

Who are you addressing? Anyone in this thread?

-edit-

Seems there's asinine behavior aplenty to go around. This man sets a lawn on fire to protest General Mills and gayness.

[Kralizec]

Note to self: never accept a beer from Lemur.

[Lemur]

Note to self: never accept a beer from Lemur.

I was trying to find some sort of amusing image response, so I Googled "beer" and "buggering." My mistake. I think I will hide from the internets now.

[Vladimir]

Why's PJ going all Adolf in this thread? There is a lot of quoting pre-moderator edited posts.

[Papewaio]

I think we can all agree that alcohol can have a stupefying effect on people. After all it can be so stupefying that people can be in such a state as not to be consensual because they are not able to say yes. DrivIng the porcelain bus is very unattractive but it's a pretty concrete example of how far we as a society go with alcohol.

=][=
Executing someone for sex between adults is beyond reasonable it is quite pathetically backwards. Whilst free speech is protected I don't think hate crimes or enshrining them in law should be allowed.

[Kralizec]

The chick-fil-a deal is just the latest opportunity for political people who have contempt for each other to express it. The left probably got a boost from the "evil corporate food chain" tie in and the right from "free speech/free enterprise/government imposing liberal agenda" tie in. The end result is very naturally a grown man berating a teenage girl on video and thinking he's awesome for it. I doubt most of the chick-fil-a people can find uganda on a map but the other side will work themselves up into a "delicious" outrage imagining hordes of christians seething with gay hatred wishing they could institute the death penalty.

It's disgusting that people run straight from "serious" talk about how to prevent gay suicides one month, to wildly exaggerating the degree to which gay people are hated the next month. Great strategy geniuses.

Taking it out on the employees is wrong. Other than that the company entirely deserves the crapstorm it finds itself in.

Corporate lobbying and involvement in politics is suspect in general, but it's existance is a fact and we'll have to put up with it as long as its transparant and does not regress into bribery or other forms of corruption. In this case a company is propping up a cause that it has absolutely no financial stake in, for no other reason that its owner wants to influence politics to conform to his own notions of morality. The owner even tries to do this abroad and willingly associated itself with an oppressive, bigoted government in Africa.

I have no problems with a boycot against such a company, nor would I work for it if I had alternatives. Free speech doesn't entail that everybody else has to like you or that they can't treat you differently for it. Some politicians try to benefit from the outrage by making BS statements? Colour me surprised. That some moron is on video bullying a low-paid employee is even less interesting.

[Fragony]

Taking it out on the employees is wrong. Other than that the company entirely deserves the crapstorm it finds itself in.

Corporate lobbying and involvement in politics is suspect in general, but it's existance is a fact and we'll have to put up with it as long as its transparant and does not regress into bribery or other forms of corruption. In this case a company is propping up a cause that it has absolutely no financial stake in, for no other reason that its owner wants to influence politics to conform to his own notions of morality. The owner even tries to do this abroad and willingly associated itself with an oppressive, bigoted government in Africa.

I have no problems with a boycot against such a company, nor would I work for it if I had alternatives. Free speech doesn't entail that everybody else has to like you or that they can't treat you differently for it. Some politicians try to benefit from the outrage by making BS statements? Colour me surprised. That some moron is on video bullying a low-paid employee is even less interesting.

It's not a boycott, it's denying settlement. I probably would't get along with them but they shouldn't be denied settlement because they have an opinion on something, that is kinda totalitarian. Or better very totalitarian. As long as there is no call fr violence any opinion whatever it is should be respected and certainly not be discriminated in such a way. Bah@activism

[Lemur]

Aaaaaaaaand ... now the Cheerios arsonist is fired.

I guess it's for the best for all of these middle-management types to do viral videos and get canned. Makes room on the promotion chain for the rest of us.

[Major Robert Dump]

No one is being denied settlement. A Mayor cannot keep a business out all by himself. He needs the City Council and/or a referendum to get this done.

Many communities have successfully kept out Wal Marts, businesses they feel will pollute the coomunity (literally and morally), and even things like half way houses, rehabs and mental homes.

All these mayors were doing was posturing, which whipped the christians into a posturing fenzy as well, which was the whole point of the OP

[Vladimir]

Aaaaaaaaand ... now the Cheerios arsonist is fired.

I guess it's for the best for all of these middle-management types to do viral videos and get canned. Makes room on the promotion chain for the rest of us.

Lemur: Fair and balanced.

[Major Robert Dump]

This is one way to create jobs.

He wasn't really an employee, he was a "contractor" who now has no contract.

I love the firms quote that they do not condone the alleged destruction of property. "Alleged" made me LOL.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Why would PJ spend so much time obsessing over these things? He's either a modern William Wilberforce or Frederick Douglas; the smart money is on Douglas.

[PanzerJaeger]

Right, because one thing that an African parliamentary needs before drafting a law is a nod from a white man in a suit. It's convenient to blame the honkey for this one, but ultimately incorrect.

A white man in a suit? I do not know what to do with this. Please respond to arguments I have actually made in the future.

Never said that. And the idea that I have not flown off the handle and up your butt every time you hold an opinion that I disagree with confuses me as to where this sudden strike of anger is coming from. There are equally pissy things going on in and around this country than a loud mouth's financial support for the anti gay movement, so right now I am trying to figure out what the oppression/travesty exchange rate is for, say, gay dudes in Uganda vs Dow Chemical's cancer babies. This would make an interesting poker game.

My anger stemmed from your minimalization of the threat facing gay people from these groups, which I found uninformed and somewhat grating. These groups operate under the guise of 'Christian Family Values' to marginalize gay people in ways that extend far beyond the marriage issue. What these groups have or are trying to have passed through GOP state legislatures will have a far more damaging impact on some of the most vulnerable people in our society, but that gets no coverage. I would gladly let marraige go if it meant that these monsters would leave gay children alone. No hate group in modern America, whether it be the KKK or the FRC, can openly advocate violence, as legal precedent has been established to hold them accountable for such rhetoric. However, you are sadly mistaken if you honestly believe that these groups are not directly involved in anti-gay violence across the country. Tony Perkins is the 'politically correct' face of the movement. The things they say behind closed church doors are far worse.

Again, I apologize for my anger. This thread was a predictable mistake.

So intent is more important than outcome? The lesser of evil intents is it? Because no one ever died from stress induced illnesses, or committed suicide, or flew off the deep end, or committed crimes against society because they had everything ripped from them and the people responsible not only did not lose their jobs, but were rewarded and excused. And no certainly no "greedy, reckless, unethical, and certainly very damaging" actions (and the state's failure to hold them accountable) have never, ever resulted in people being hurt or killed in the workplace. Ever.

So, if it's all about the Benjamins, that makes it less bad. Got it.

Intent is obviously more important than outcome in judging the severity of an action. Outcome is a wholly separate issue. It is enshrined in our understanding of justice through the concept of degree. If I run you over in my car by accident while texting, it would be declared manslaughter. If I planned to run you over, it would be murder. You would be dead either way.

I would submit that intentionally trying to hurt people based on nothing more than hate is far worse than getting caught up in reckless risk taking and greed. As egregious as those Wall Street bankers' actions were, they were not intentionally trying to hurt anyone.

Huge difference between middle management and executives, and I would dare say that NO, middle management type may very well NOT have other immediate career options, assuming your definition of MM is the in-store managers and assistants and franchise owners. Maybe an "executive" quitting over this will get him or her some brownie points on the resume and maybe even some positive PR with the press, but to suggest that a store manager or assistant can just bail on his job and find another pronto is a bit of a stretch, and to think some guy who spent a quarter mill getting franchised will just walk away from his investment is also crazy. Ultimately it is their own fault for not doing better research on the team with which they signed on, but I'm not going to lambast them for it. No SOB story here, and it very much has bearing on the story because if it were not for the piss poor economy I am sure more of CFAs employees might have already bailed. Were I a headhunter for the QSR industry, I would be reaching out to CFA employees, assuming there were jobs to be filled.

We will just have to disagree here, as I have always been under the impression that competent fast food managers, and even assistant managers, are always in high demand. I would not consider them 'middle management' in a corporation the size of Chick Fil A anyway. DMs, RVPs, et cetera more accurately fill that role, not anyone on site.

Really? Because I seem to recall tales of the military being destroyed and troops being killed when DADT was repealed. I seem to recall this guy on MSNBC name Kieth Olbermann and good old Murtha who liked to paint combat troops with a very broad brush and call them all murderers. I seem to recall Glenn Beck thinking all muslims are extrememists and backing a hold on immigrants, which could very well stoke the fires of crimes against immigrants. I seem to recall a PResident who first denied hearing, then later changed it to "hearing but disagreeing with" his pastor's Kill Whitey rhetoric.

Oh, and there are a disturbing number of members of Congress lining up to support CFA as we speak, and FOX Host Mike Huckabee was behind the CFA appreciation day rallies.

Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond practically died in office. Tom Delay was a known crook and thief yet served term after term because he brought money to his district and only resigned so he could prepare to defend himself over his appalling participation in crimes against the country and against migrant workers in the Mrianne Islands that included forced abortions.

As stated before, Jim Inhofe has been a very vocal supporter of FRC, and did not sever ties when he was "informed" of the issue in Uganda. The FRC held a rallies in 2010 in which Gingirch, Santorum and bunched of others gave speeches. The FRC was already up to no good in Africa then, this was no secret. This is not a new issue. Where have you been?

I would love to see a video of Olbermann calling all US troops murderers. If anyone ever has, it would be him. None of the rest of what you mention are actually examples of people saying the kind of things Tony Perkins has about gays.

No, you're right, most companies don't donate to hate groups. But they do donate to causes that many people disagree with, or to figures that in turn use the funds for appalling measures. Again, back to the guys mentioned above.

This reminds me of the sudden interest everyone had for Joseph Koney, whose exploits I have been following for the better part of my life, wondering why no one does anything about it, and then when I responded luke warm to the sudden surge of interest this year, suddenly I am the heartless sonofabitch? I think not.

I felt that your comments went beyond cynicism and strayed into minimalism of a particularly abhorrent movement. Maybe I misunderstood you, or maybe you are trying to turn this into a broader argument about AIG and/or Joseph Koney that never actually existed. I'm too exhausted tonight to figure it out.

And please, stop with the KKK stuff. Really. Huge difference.

Actually, groups like the FRC are remarkably similar to the modern KKK. The fight to preserve white culture/Christian Values follows the same basic modus oporandi and appeals to the same core group of people in America. Nobody gets lynched anymore. It is all about hearts and minds these days, but that doesn't mean the hate is not just as potent.

Why would PJ spend so much time obsessing over these things? He's either a modern William Wilberforce or Frederick Douglas; the smart money is on Douglas.

I think I understand what you are saying, but I am not sure.

[Beskar]

I think I understand what you are saying, but I am not sure.

From what I am grasping, he is basically saying "You are a heterosexual with a deep passion for the equal rights of LGBT citizens" (the William Wilberforce) or "You are a LGBT citizen yourself promoting for equal rights" (the Frederick Douglas). But both of these are talking about the Slave Trade in their respective times.

[Fragony]

I don't think our Panzer is heterosexual, just saying. And it wouldn't mean anything to me really.

[Major Robert Dump]

I really think turning this thread into a guessing game for PJs sexual orientation is pretty tacky, be it kidding or not. I realize we all poke fun at each other in various sexual ways and use lots of gay undertones in our exchanges, but I just don't think it belongs in this particular thread.

@PJ
You are right. I am minimalizing it in terms of CONUS. It's not misinformation, it's apathy and amusement. While there are definitive cases of right and wrong in this entire ordeal, the sky is, in fact, not falling in the good ole USA, and the comparison of the gay rights movement to the black civil rights movement I happen to find absurd. These people may very well engage in "off the record" condoning of violence behind closed doors, and until it becomes public, it is just that: off the record. It amounts to nothing more than accusations of old white guys in a cigar smoke filled room planning to invade Iraq for the oil. Show us the proof, and we shut them down. Until then, it is politic as usual, so get in line. Picking on vulnerable people is disgusting and a shame. But it is far from an epidemic, and even if it were an epidemic, the FRC is not the only one fanning the flame. Homophobia goes far beyond a person being Christian.

Suggesting that this group is like the KKK is a stretch. Talk all you want about "times are a changin" and that the lynches now are symbolic, not literal. We can apply that standard to virtually everything, and many people do, which is why we get Godwin. Using this rationale I would assume that you are a "constitution as a living document" type of guy, which I would havenever taken you for.

The examples of hateful people I gave go beyond "saying" things about people. You said it yourself: actions go beyond words. Yet they continued to get re elected in the face of terrible things said and done. Over and over again. politics as usual. You say you do not understand the link, while I think I make myself fairly clear. People pick their fights, and I do not understand outrage when the left hand does something but not when it's the right hand. I do't get it. Nut maybe I just think too broadly, like when I pointed out that feminist anti-porn advocates use an argument that defeats their own arguments for abortion-on-demand. No one saw the humor but me. Whatevs

All I am doing is trying to apply the same standards to this little scandal as I do everything else. Just because I am rooting for your side to win, does not mean that when people blow hot air out of their butts that I have to treat it like top-shelf perfume.

[Major Robert Dump]

WE MUST STOP THE GAY VIOLENCE AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS

[Major Robert Dump]

The authorities obviously dropped the ball on this.

The Question is Did he buy all 15 sandwiches at once, or did he spread it out over time as not to raise suspicion????

[drone]

The authorities obviously dropped the ball on this.

The Question is Did he buy all 15 sandwiches at once, or did he spread it out over time as not to raise suspicion????

I disagree with your politics, but excuse me will I enrich you donors.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I have a suspicion that everyone is coming over to McDonalds ordering a McChicken from me instead of supporting Chick-fil-a.

[Lemur]

Well this is interesting. Apparently the FRC's Tony Perkins has long-standing ties with David Duke.

In 1996, while managing the U.S. Senate campaign of Woody Jenkins against Mary Landrieu, Perkins paid $82,500 to use the mailing list of former Klan chieftain David Duke. The campaign was fined $3,000 (reduced from $82,500) after Perkins and Jenkins filed false disclosure forms in a bid to hide their link to Duke. Five years later, on May 17, 2001, Perkins gave a speech to the Louisiana chapter of the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC), a white supremacist group that has described black people as a “retrograde species of humanity.” Perkins claimed not to know the group’s ideology at the time, but it had been widely publicized in Louisiana and the nation, because in 1999 — two years before Perkins’ speech to the CCC — Republican House Speaker Trent Lott had been embroiled in a national scandal over his ties to the group. GOP chairman Jim Nicholson then urged Republicans to avoid the CCC because of its “racist views.”

[Major Robert Dump]

What a douche. Someone went to town on the mocrophish in the old public library. Some things never go away ")