Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Burebista]

Hiding? ^^

And for good unit I'll say the Appea Gaedotos (phalanx with guard on and "hellraiser" with its axe :p)

Yep..hiding in grass...i loled so hard first time i saw it:)

Also , love the Appea too.They are great , especially for their cost and stamina

[GenosseGeneral]

Here's another. Iberi curisi .

Can anyone guess why i think this unit is sometimes extremely good?

Because they are affordable, because they have very good stamina, can easily fight other medium cav (like equites romani). They can do simply everything, they can chase, fight cav, or even charge.

[panten]

Two units i learned to love during my ongoing AS campaign:

Eastern Axemen: They are simply awesome, they win the important fights for me and have had more than their fair share in killing Pahlavian family members.
Of course they die like flies if put directly against those arrow railguns, but supported by Pantodapoi and the light HA/archers I can recruit, they kill everything Pahlava throws at me. Next to the phalangitai pantodapoi and Persian archers they are the most valuable units in my garrisons and field armies in the East.

Podromoi: I love that cavalry. It's perfect for my style of fighting: pinning down the enemy and than go for aggressive and repeated charges on the flanks and the rear. They also kill cavalry effective enough and have a great stamina recovery. Has been one of the key units when fighting the Ptolemaioi.

[Olaf The Great]

Okay, the best, the most dangerous, and the cheapest(free once you first make it) killing machine in the game is....
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FhgkI_RYao...400/50_Cal.jpg
inside of a
http://amcboston.org/walks/pics1/Lyn...-6-2-02-JB.jpg
They slaughter everything that gets in range and only one unit in the game can take them down, and only a few factions even get access.

[Kikaz]

Okay, the best, the most dangerous, and the cheapest(free once you first make it) killing machine in the game is....
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FhgkI_RYao...400/50_Cal.jpg
inside of a
http://amcboston.org/walks/pics1/Lyn...-6-2-02-JB.jpg
They slaughter everything that gets in range and only one unit in the game can take them down, and only a few factions even get access.

Especially useful against the AI, who love to bask in raining death for reasons not yet known.

[anubis88]

I think every singe unit was mentioned in this thread

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I think I'll be bored later today. I'll do a tally of votes so we can actually have some results.

[Olaf The Great]

One of the "poor guys in the east with axes" will win the "surprisingly good" vote, but what would be the most surprisingly bad unit?

[seienchin]

In Singleplayer I would still go for the sotaroas, but okay they are not "surprisingly bad"
Massylian hoplitai are really surprisingly bad and so are thorakitai in my opinion. They are heavy armoured and should be able to hold a line and dish out damage, but they dont do any damage and are getting butchered against AP carying levies.

[Arjos]

Uhm... Bad units... Katapeltai or Lithoboloi?
Was there such an high upkeep? (maintenance for a wooden structure with springs of sinews)...

[Olaf The Great]

I would be happier with the siege weapons if they came in higher numbers with the same or slightly cheaper price, the problem is they come onto a battlefield with 1 or 2 machines on huge and run out of ammo after one thing gets broken, or even before that if they get unlucky with missing. The anti-personelll version is pretty much useless, or atleast I assume it is, it might be "suprisingly good" but I can't say because I've never seen the purpose in using them.

[athanaric]

I would be happier with the siege weapons if they came in higher numbers with the same or slightly cheaper price, the problem is they come onto a battlefield with 1 or 2 machines on huge and run out of ammo after one thing gets broken, or even before that if they get unlucky with missing. The anti-personelll version is pretty much useless, or atleast I assume it is, it might be "suprisingly good" but I can't say because I've never seen the purpose in using them.

The smallest version (Tri... Katapeltai/Scorpiones) are worth the expense - you get six of them per unit (or was it eight?), and they have a very decent range. Good for decimating elite troops, phalanxes, elephants, or bodyguard units.
The three bigger types are a waste of money IMO. They're only useful for destroying wooden towers when assaulting cities with wooden walls, to prevent the "wooden tower backfire bug".

[Ludens]

Was there such an high upkeep? (maintenance for a wooden structure with springs of sinews)...

I suppose it is to discourage people from using them on the battlefield. The bigger ones required a lot of time to set up and range, so no use for on the battlefield. Also, don't underestimate just how expensive they were. They weren't created from from a few logs cut down on the spot, but required special wood types. The people who operate them were highly-paid experts.

[Duguntz]

I suppose it is to discourage people from using them on the battlefield. The bigger ones required a lot of time to set up and range, so no use for on the battlefield. Also, don't underestimate just how expensive they were. They weren't created from from a few logs cut down on the spot, but required special wood types. The people who operate them were highly-paid experts.

True, but as an example, when Caesar invaded gauls, he was building his seige engine on the spot, sending parties in the forest to cut wood for that purpuse only, then the engeener team would build the seige engines... so not, everytime, but in many cases the armies had the material already at disposition in the land they were invading...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

And you still build siege engines on the spot when assaulting towns. Only the very delicate torsion based weapons require experts to man and build.

And yeah, I started a tally but decided time would be better spent on my campaign instead. Maybe in a few days lol.

[Olaf The Great]

The only time where siege weapons are useful are in the Central European badass zones, and that's only because the script. Since the siege weapons slow down your army to a crawl the "1 turn bonus" for knocking down walls is effectively lost, though it does have a bit of a use in places like central Italy where you can get Rome, Capua, and Arpi in 2 turns with siege weapons, or 3 turns for the 4 southermost Greek cities, but honestly, it's just silly. Elephants can still knock down wooden walls and gates, and actually have a use on the battlefield after the walls are down.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Well, after playing Carthage a bit I decided to bring this thread back with my observations!

Surprisingly Good:
Gldgmtk


These guys are amazing. I always used to hate javelin horses because of the low ammo and short range, but my Gldgmtk turn out to be fearsome engines of destruction in almost every battle. They're fast moving, and can't be caught by any other unit - they can outrun heavy cavalry even while Tired. They have incredible stamina, and will stay Fresh or Warmed up for inhuman amounts of time, and will rest from tired all they way back to fresh in under a minute. Their javelins are capable of tearing a swath of destruction through any unit's rear, even heavy infantry. Give Gldgmtk an elevation advantage and face them to the side or rear of a unit, and be prepared for that 200 man unit to sink down to 50 men in three or four volleys. Then, you can finish the job with a charge since these guys carry long spears as a secondary weapon.

These guys are the best unit I've come across in EB, and are certainly my favorite so far. I've lost count of how many battles witnessed a mere two of these units working together to collapse an entire flank of the enemy army. Just two or three of these guys are worth an entire army. In both of my main armies, my Gldgmtk have significantly more experience than any other unit because they always kill hundreds of men each battle. I just can't say enough about how awesome this unit is. Go Numidia.

I also love these guys for their name. I love words that don't have vowels. G-uhl-d-gmmtk..?

Surprisingly Bad:
Iberian Lancearii


These guys are such a trash unit. It's incredibly disappointing since Lanceari are among the prettiest units in EB - not to mention the most expensive - but they are really a terrible, terrible unit. In melee, Lanceari will get torn to pieces by any other unit in the game, even skirmishers. They are inferior to Sacred Band cavalry in every way, there's simply no reason to use them. Even the Iberian Medium cavalry lasts longer than Lanceari. Lanceari also have a pathetic stamina rating and will often fall to Winded just from being maneuvered into position, before the charge even occurs. This is an especially bad thing because Lanceari have a virtually nonexistent melee attack and low defense for such an expensive unit, so arriving in melee combat with low stamina, low melee attack, and low defense means equals dead unit. The Sacred Band cavalry have better attack, much better defense, only slightly lower charge rating, and can tank it out in melee for 10+ seconds with no problem, as well as turn their backs on a unit to withdraw from a charge without losing any men at all, whereas Lanceari usually lose at least 4-5 men while withdrawing for a new charge due to poor defense and low stamina/speed.

Sacred Band cavalry and Iberian Medium cavalry are better units overall. On a related note, I'm puzzled as to how Sacred Bands have more defense than Lanceari when the Sacred band horse has only a little bit of barding but the Lanceari is completely covered from head to hoof in armor, and the rider almost as well armored. I realize the Sacred Band are supposed to be the better unit due to cost and 1100 upkeep, but at any rate, I'd expect a heavy cavalry unit with 1000 upkeep to be better than this. The upkeep difference between SB and Lanceari isn't much, but the performance difference is extremely noticable. In my Iberian army, my three units of Lanceari are floating around 30-45 men after years on the road, while my Sacred Band unit is still at 86 men, despite using both only for their charges, and despite generally putting the Sacred Band unit in more dangerous situations, having learned that they handle them better than lanceari. That's a huge difference!

[Burebista]

Nice to see noble numidian cav in there. Don't fully agree with you on their cost effectiveness though. I find them too expensive , and would rather have Curepos/leuce epos as they do the same job but much cheaper. Still , it's a matter of preference.

Iberi lanceari....i am also dissapointed about them. Much better to use Parashim cavalry , either one of the 3.

[Olaf The Great]

Cost effectiveness doesn't mean much as the Carthies.
But yeah, the Lanceari are just bad units, in my edu I gave them very good stamina and increased their armor and attack a bit, though I increased their cost too.

[vollorix]

I think, Jugundiz were mentioned in this thread allready, but they are the only unit wich has ever managed to slain at least 3 of my sweboz bodyguards ( aside from Lugi monsters in frontal assault ^^ ), while beeing "tired", lost the general, and actually weaving. And i´m not talking about the town center, where they have no way to run.
Somehow, playing as Sweboz, i definetly prefer them over the larger sized levy warband, going then straight to the Dugundiz, wich are, not suprisingly, good ( if one uses them well ).

[QuintusSertorius]

Massylian hoplitai are really surprisingly bad and so are thorakitai in my opinion. They are heavy armoured and should be able to hold a line and dish out damage, but they dont do any damage and are getting butchered against AP carying levies.

I was surprised at how weak the Massilian hoplites are; I think the problem is that they don't automatically switch to swords against infantry, and their melee skill is really low (which is an issue if they're using a spear against a non-spear unit, what with the -4 penalty). Keltohellenikoi are a better Celt-Greek mixed unit.

Thorakitai on the other hand are pretty durable. I used a unit of them in the centre of my line for a bit, though that's not what they're for. They're supposed to be heavy flankers, not for holding the line.

[athanaric]

Thorakitai on the other hand are pretty durable. I used a unit of them in the centre of my line for a bit, though that's not what they're for. They're supposed to be heavy flankers, not for holding the line.

Thorakitai are excellent against cavalry. If anything, they're "unsurprisingly good".

[A_Dane]

I've had the exact opposite experience with sacred band/Lancearri. In my Carthage game, the Lancearri were the unit that broke the enemy most, while the sacred band was just thorn to pieces by anything that hit them.

Might just be me experiencing this, havn't changed anything.

[FriendlyFire]

I've been using Ekdromoi Hoplitai in a KH campaign for the first time, and found them surprisingly good.



Looking at their stats I've always thought they were a waste of Mnai, since for about the same upkeep I can have Classical Hoplites who'll hold a line forever, or Thureophoroi who can guard the flanks with javelins. In desperation I tried some to counter hordes of Makedonian skirmishers, and found out that they're exactly what it says on the tin: fast enough and fit enough to run down, fight, and rout any light skirmisher.

Then I started experimenting with them as flank guards, to push far out and cover my flanking infantry as they charge the backs of the enemy's main line. I've generally used Thureophoroi for this, but they always seem to be tired out before they've even made contact. Ekdromoi get there faster, in better condition, and are quite able to stand up to the regular second enemy line. They'll fight off cavalry, and have brought down enemy FMs. When the enemy line is tired out and wavering, the Ekdromoi will still only be warmed up, and ready to launch an all-out charge with a hefty charge bonus of 8. With their speed, endurance, charge, and ability to hold out long enough for heavier forces to rescue them (if they end up fighting sword infantry, for example) I've begun thinking of them as a dirt-cheap line-holding quick-response light cavalry unit, instead of a somewhat-expensive light infantry unit.

Ekdromoi also have a big strategic advantage, since they're recruitable from a second-level MIC. This is key in the early campaign, or when you're expanding outwards into new territories, since it means recent conquests can recruit Ekdromoi while your core cities supply classical hoplites from their third-level MICs.

[Epimetheus]

I've found the Ekdromoi surprisingly useful on the steppes, actually. Though they're designed to counter peltasts, they actually work fairly well against horse-archers as well. I once used a stack of them to defend the Bosphorus from the Sauromatae. The results were hilarious. I set the Ekdromoi in loose formation, and ended up chasing the nomads all over the map. The Ekdromoi were able to keep pace with the nomads, though they could never quite catch up, and their huge shields meant that they took few casualties. Eventually the nomads became exhausted, ran out of arrows, and were quickly butchered when they tried to enter melee.

[rotten]

1 unit vs 1 unit they win, but if the horse archers manage to not waste their arrows on the aspis, the ekdromos is toast.

[Vaginacles]

This has probably been done to death but, recently i've been playing as AS and holy crap, Archer-spearmen are almost OP. I've been wasting Pav HA and archers with a half stack of these guys. Its LOL funny when i place these dudes on top of a hill, waste the PAV general, and then rout the rest of his army with my charging general. Considering my entire plan is to just delay the out of the east until i can mop up the ptolemies (which by the way, prodromi are useful as fodder kamakazi routing calvalry) then i can focus my money on recruiting and building up infra.

[Captain Trek]

During my current Saba campaign (wherein I wound up invading Egypt too early, leaving my economy in poor shape due to corruption and my Faction Leader dashing around the place like a headless chicken fighting off endless 'Ptolemic stacks), I've found that Machimoi are surprisingly good. Recruited out of level two regional MICs in Alexandria and Memphis, these guys are decently well-armoured, tough and seem to level up extremely fast. Despite being swordsmen and not spearmen, they can even fight well against enemy FMs and hack right through the flanks of enemy pike phalanxes. In other words, these guys have really saved my bacon during that campaign and I'm definitely surprised at their truly excellent performance for their low teir and their small price...

[The_Blacksmith]

In my Makedonia campaign ive been stunned by the Prodiomoi.. GOD THEY ARE GOOD!!!

and the Royal Skirmisher cav for Makedon is REALLY bad... even at hunting down fleeing troops...

[seleucid empire]

surprisingly good:
Bactrian light infantry (great against infantry)
Maure infantry
Arabian light infantry (core of my armies when i conquer south arabia as AS)
Sabean levy spearmen (these guys srsly piss me off when I play against saba. They hold on until theres 40 men left in their unit ouf of 240 and the only way to rout them early is to use massed arabian skimishers)
Jewish infantry
Steppe riders (just WOW. I never thought a unit of cavalry could possibly be that good)
lucanian light infantry (they are skirmishers with spears but for some reason they are acutally very good on walls. I remember in my siege of Capua, I deployed one of these on the walls to hold of a marian cohort while my mercenary peltasts came from the other side. I was praying to god that they wouldn't rout before they got there but to my surprise they were actually holding on their own and doing a lot of damage to the marian cohort)
Triballi infantry
Chatti spearmen (big fan of these. too bad you can onnly get them in one province
Median and eastern medium cavalry (people dont like them but for me they are excellent. They are more like light cavalry than medium but still have ok charge. I keep one unit around when i head west)

Surprisingly Bad:
Pelt Maks: i guess they are mobile and good in sieges but but suffer quite few casualties even against medium infantry. I prefer Hypaspistai cause they never break and murder everything
Kinsmen heavy cavalry (bad stamina imo, not that good in charging. Suffer higher casualties despite that pretty looking armour they have)
Bactrian horsearchers (give me a unit of steppe riders ANY day)
Chalkaspides/Bronze shields/pontic elite phalanx (not really a match for any of the elite phalanxes of nearby factions)