Starve The Beast Is the Most Ill Concived Peice of Political Theory

[Strike For The South]

When I grow up I'm going to be a small businessman, APPARENTLY THERE'S A POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF THAT RAINBOW.

[lars573]

More explanation, and less booze, required.

[HoreTore]

I'm assuming "the beast" is the government, and that it is a minimum government policy who emphasizes "small business".

I also assume Strike is opposed, and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Kralizec]

APPARENTLY THERE'S A POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF THAT RAINBOW.

Doesn't seem to do the Irish much good right now.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Guys, there is a wikipedia article on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

[Beskar]

It is a policy where in order to cut down on household bills, you take a paycut.

[Greyblades]

I'm really getting sick of people starting threads without explaining what they're talking about. My telepathy only has a radius of 50 yards you know!

[Strike For The South]

Today is my day off

I've been drinking Vodka/Fantas and watching Frontline since 8am

I owe you limeys nothing

[Greyblades]

Today is my day off

I've been drinking Vodka/Fantas and watching Frontline since 8am

I owe you limeys nothing

You owe us your language, unified status and your national anthem, an explanation is the least you can do yah yankee layabout.

[HoreTore]

Guys, there is a wikipedia article on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Sarah Palin supports it.

That automatically makes it a contender for "dumbest policy of the century"-award.

[Papewaio]

So you can either pay your own way as a society with taxes.

Or

Issue government bonds to China and be in debt to a foreign power that many have doubts about its growing power.

So personal responsibility vs foreign government influence.

I know which one I prefer.

[Tuuvi]

I'm all for smaller, limited government, but I hate how conservatives want to cut taxes and government programs without any plan or goal, as if government is some sort of enemy that needs to be defeated.

Here's an idea: Why don't we decide which programs and services we really want and need, figure out how much it will cost, and then set taxes accordingly?

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'm all for smaller, limited government, but I hate how conservatives want to cut taxes and government programs without any plan or goal, as if government is some sort of enemy that needs to be defeated.

Here's an idea: Why don't we decide which programs and services we really want and need, figure out how much it will cost, and then set taxes accordingly?

It's a brilliant idea. Which programs and services, did you have in mind?

[Tellos Athenaios]

So you can either pay your own way as a society with taxes.

The history of the USA is of not liking the sound of that. At all.

I'm only partially kidding: California serves as a good example of what happens when you let the voters decide.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm only partially kidding: California serves as a good example of what happens when you let the voters decide.

My state makes me cry sometimes. I can't wait to see how the voters do in 5 days. I was planning on making a thread about the more ridiculous ones.

[drone]

"Starve the Beast" = "kill all funding to Democrat-supported federal programs"

[Kadagar_AV]

Tax the super-wealthy at rates higher than 50%, give massive subsidies to manufacturing and focus on exporting to Europe (to take advantage of their failing manufacturing base outside of Germany), raise import tariffs on chinese goods over time, naturalize and give amnesty to as many undocumented immigrants as possible so they can start paying taxes and so businesses can stop using them to cheat the system. Make it a national priority to get a higher education and/or trade/vocational education to everyone who wants it. Give it ten or fifteen years of dedicated support from both sides of the aisle (since constant economic policy changes do more harm than anything else). Economy fixed for the foreseeable future.

Oh, and legalize pot. That's a gold-mine waiting to be exploited.

[Fragony]

With the conservatives, starve the beast. The government isn't there for you, you are there for the government.

[Kadagar_AV]

What I have yet to understand, is why people from the US think the police and military should be state funded, but not the well being of the citizens (healthcare, social security a.s.o).

I'm just joking of course... The vast majority of police work is done by private companies over there, and lately also their military. I haven't kept track lately, but would I be all wrong saying private companies stand for a lot of the boots on the ground in Afghanistan or Iraq?



I think the rest of the world should start treating the US less like a nation, and more like a corporation.

A corporation about to go bankrupt.

[Tuuvi]

It's a brilliant idea. Which programs and services, did you have in mind?

I haven't given it that much thought, what I was trying to get at is that I think the tax rate should be based on the government's need, rather on all the hullabaloo about lowering taxes because taxes = oppression or tax the rich because they need to pay their fair share, etc. I also think that with the budget and government being as bloated and complicated as it is, in order to balance the budget it might be best to just start from scratch and rebuild the whole thing from the ground up.

[Kadagar_AV]

That's pretty exaggerated, actually. Police work is almost entirely tax-payer funded and public--the biggest problem with the police is that their Unions are worse than anything in the auto industry, which makes it almost impossible to get rid of the rotten ones, and Private Military Companies account for an absolutely miniscule amount of the troops on the ground during the global war on terror. When I was in Iraq, I only ever saw them when we visited the green zone.

*However, one area where you are correct is when it comes to the prison system. Many of our largest prisons are privately run and subsidized by the government--the only people making a profit from these operations are the corporations who run the prisons, and the politicians getting kickbacks from their lobbyists. It is a frightening trend.

Mall security
Private investigators
Bounty hunters
Gated communities

Yeah... You have policemen doing police work alright.

And about Mercs, last I checked roughly 50% of the boots on the ground in Iraq were Mercs... Has that changed?

[Kadagar_AV]

Mall security, private investigators, and "bounty Hunters" have no more power than a private citizen. I'm a certified security guard myself, but I don't have anything close to the authority of a cop.

As for that 50% number, i would love to see a source on that. When i was in Iraq we had roughly 200,000 troops there, there aren't enough private military contractors in the states to make up 50% of that

There are demons in our system, but you're looking in the wrong spots.

When were you there? I wrote about this on this forum YEARS ago and shocked many Americans, can't really be bothered to fact search again.

As of March 2010, there were 95,461 DOD contractor personnel in Iraq compared to approximately 95,900 uniformed personnel in-country.

<- Those are the latest figures I could find. Sorry, I really can't be bothered re-doing a job I already did for this board... A quick google search might do you good. If for no other reason than it being an excellent opportunity to whiff me off.


About Mall security, private investigators and so on.... I am perfectly aware that they have no extra authority, I am just saying that they are doing the job the Police do in less corporalistic (SP?) countries.

You know, you COULD have an actual policeman in the mall, with police rights. You COULD have a state investing enough in the police for private detectives to not be needed, as the law should serve everyone, not just those who can pay for extra service.

[Kadagar_AV]

Mall security is really not a problem. They're whole function is literally just to be eyes on the property and alert the police, a system that works pretty well.

As for Iraq, i was there in 2008, when we still had outposts in the major cities. Technically that war is "over" so, in my opinion, any continued presence there is just silly.

I still don't buy those numbers though. DoD civilians are not mercs like Blackwater.

DoD?

[Kadagar_AV]

DoD?

I know Blackwater? Xe? Academi? Whatever their name is these days, the name seem to fluctuate a lot, have run intel ops and protective ops in Iraq... In most other countries work like that WOULD be state controlled.

Heck, I cant think of another (western) country that would send armed mercs to do their job.

Libya - sure.
Norway - no

In my book, I prefer Norway's stance to Libya's.

Unfortunately, the US has decided to align with the more barbaric views on warfare.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Jesus Christ, you broke the story on the number of private contractors compared to US soldiers in Iraq and yet don't even know what DoD means?

[Kadagar_AV]

DoD means department of defense. Must of the civilian outsourcing reflected in your numbers are cooks, accountants, janitors, maintenance people, etc.

Organizations like Blackwater have never had numbers like you suggest.

Dude, most of ANY nations forces are cooks, accountants, janitors...

That, however, does not explain why the US has armed mercs on the scene, or let mercs go above national troopers in the chain of command, or generally at large let mercs do the job a nations DoD is supposed to handle without mercenary forces.

[Kadagar_AV]

So you disagree with armed Mercs doing combat patrols and missions? Good, so do I.

What I'm trying to point out to you, however, is that it is uncommon, and not even close to being half our "guns on the ground"

I do believe the correct quote would be boots on the ground, not guns on the ground...

Don't go all Fox News on me.

EDIT: Me being wrong, I did write guns on the ground.

Brainfart, boots on the ground. With that said, it doesnt change my perspective at all.. I actually find it MORE erroneous that mercs run intel ops than armed ops.

[Centurion1]

im going to piss myself about how ignorant the "informed" swede is about this.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, now we're at a point where we agree, although i am rather sure that most of our Intel does not in any way come from private organizations.

I don't have a problem at all with groups like KBR, who had thousands of employees doing things like fixing equipment, serving food, cleaning port-a-johns, and that sort of thing.

Our outpost was too small and unsafe for civilians to hang out at, so we had to do those things ourselves. American Civilians were rare creatures in Iraq outside of the Green zone or the major FOBs.

I don't mind civilians cleaning the toilets (although as sergeant I find it distasteful that civilians should serve the armed forces, we are perfectly capable of cleaning our own toilets and it's part of the whole deal imho).

What I am AGAINST is mercs taking command of forces, mercs running actual operational ops, mercs handling intel ops...

Do NOT come and say that all your civilians contractors cleans toilets and serves food, there is plenty of evidence in the opposite direction.

[Ironside]

Tax the super-wealthy at rates higher than 50%

The big one is classing capital gains as income -> income tax rates on that. Say for example, Mitt Romney would about double his taxes, while he would tax dodge away from those 50%, like he does now. It's also quite hard to paint in "evil pinko commie" light with a bit of traction, since it's forcing them to pay the same as everyone else. Needs to be grasrooted though, too many in the top uses it.

With the conservatives, starve the beast. The government isn't there for you, you are there for the government.

Starving the beast requires that you're willing to cut the stuff you want to remain. That's the fundamental problem with the idea. The last decade pretty much shows that it might start working when the US is in the same situation as Greece (and the sane economical recovery would include rising taxes).

It really stems from the question "why should we pay any taxes at all?" and not "what taxes are fair?"