French special forces operation foiled by villagers

[Greyblades]

Methinks that last sentence applies to the roma as much as it does to the locals.

[Myth]

The balkans have even formed a new version of the blackshirts, who frequently go to the countryside looking for roma to beat up. With the blessing of the authorities, of course.

Wonderful measure of integration.

Sir, I live on the Balkans and this is horseshit. Some pseudo NFP organizations like Soros and other such foundations brainwash the western countries into believing this crap. We had a huge scandal last year with one of the most prominent gypsy feudal lords, who got filthy rich off of making fake alcohol. His grandson and a bunch of goons killed a Bulgarian teenager over an argument. Then a bunch of football fans (or "hooligans" as they are called in the news) got up and torched that guy's house (illegally built of course) and his 100,000 euro Mercedes.

The police came and beat and gassed the Bulgarians, not the gypsies who later assembled en masse and said on the damn news that "heads will roll" and shouted "death to the Bulgarians"

they do NOT view themselves as part of this nation and there are no neo-Nazi sqads going around beating gypsies. After this incident a 19 year old got 3 months of prison for starting a FB group named "Death to the gypsies". While the gypsies threatened death on live TV and they got police escort and protection for it.

[HoreTore]

Methinks that last sentence applies to the roma as much as it does to the locals.

Of course, noone is claiming otherwise(if I read it correctly, ie roma has an obligation to integrate) A lot of the Roma are doing fine too, with employment, higher education, etc, just like the completely normal people they are. But when we're talking about the roma problem, we are talking about those who are living in utter poverty and are ostracised and persecuted by various governments(forced sterilization programs FTW).

[Ironside]

Self determination is key. If the Roma don't want to partake in society, that's fine. I don't see why they should be allowed to have their cake and eat it too, though.

But i really don't know much about the situation.

It's a spiral. By not partaking in society from the start, they got frozen out and treated badly. In particular the freezing out, causes them to have no other option than to take pride in being what they are. And since they're treated badly and have no other option, they start to act badly in turn.

If people thinks you're a thief and no matter what you do, they won't accept proof of otherwise, then what's the point of not being a thief?

The situation is quite bad there, much worse than with the local Roma population in other countries.

[Myth]

Of course, noone is claiming otherwise(if I read it correctly, ie roma has an obligation to integrate) A lot of the Roma are doing fine too, with employment, higher education, etc, just like the completely normal people they are. But when we're talking about the roma problem, we are talking about those who are living in utter poverty and are ostracised and persecuted by various governments(forced sterilization programs FTW).

I don't know how many Roma you have in the universities in Norway but I've seen none in ours, and I've lived n Student City in Sofia for two years, and I frequent the campus of the Veliko Tarnovo university (my home town).

[Sarmatian]

The balkans have even formed a new version of the blackshirts, who frequently go to the countryside looking for roma to beat up. With the blessing of the authorities, of course.

Wonderful measure of integration.

Ok, this is bollox.

The first nation that integrates Gypsies should get all the Nobel prizes, even physics. Can't be done. You'd have to give each one three-man around the clock watch just to get them to go to school.

There isn't a single mechanism of our state apparatus that could make them change their ways. It's not the problem of "we won't", it's the problem of "they won't".

[Fisherking]

Send them all to Norway and see if that gets them to pay their utility bills?

[HoreTore]

I don't know how many Roma you have in the universities in Norway but I've seen none in ours, and I've lived n Student City in Sofia for two years, and I frequent the campus of the Veliko Tarnovo university (my home town).

That you don't have any rather proves my point about your governments, don't it?

Ok, this is bollox.

The first nation that integrates Gypsies should get all the Nobel prizes, even physics. Can't be done. You'd have to give each one three-man around the clock watch just to get them to go to school.

There isn't a single mechanism of our state apparatus that could make them change their ways. It's not the problem of "we won't", it's the problem of "they won't".

It's already done, so this post isn't relevant.

Send them all to Norway and see if that gets them to pay their utility bills?

We've had roma so long we've even had time to sterilize them. Glory to us!

[Myth]

That you don't have any rather proves my point about your governments, don't it?

No it does not. There are plenty of poor Bulgarian students here, working and paying their way trough the university. The tax is paltry - around 100 euro per semester. Working 4 hours a day in a fast food joint and keeping your GDP above 4.0 will let you pay for that, live for free and eat for 50 euro cents per meal. THEY HAVE THE OPTION TO BENEFIT FROM THIS BUT THEY DO NOT. It's not because there is any special treatment versus them. It's because they don't find it necessary to send their kids to school and they do not WANT to learn or work.

That you would talk like this shows you have no first hand experience with the situation.

[Kralizec]

Can't be done. You'd have to give each one three-man around the clock watch just to get them to go to school.

Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.

That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.

[HoreTore]

No it does not. There are plenty of poor Bulgarian students here, working and paying their way trough the university. The tax is paltry - around 100 euro per semester. Working 4 hours a day in a fast food joint and keeping your GDP above 4.0 will let you pay for that, live for free and eat for 50 euro cents per meal. THEY HAVE THE OPTION TO BENEFIT FROM THIS BUT THEY DO NOT. It's not because there is any special treatment versus them. It's because they don't find it necessary to send their kids to school and they do not WANT to learn or work.

That you would talk like this shows you have no first hand experience with the situation.

In Scandinavia, Roma take higher education.
In Bulgaria, Roma does not take higher education.

Yeah, you'd need to be a genius to figure that one out...

[Myth]

Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.

That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.

Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.

[Myth]

In Scandinavia, Roma take higher education.
In Bulgaria, Roma does not take higher education.

Yeah, you'd need to be a genius to figure that one out...

Got any proof that these are not ad-hoc cases or simply dark skinned Europeans or middle easterners? We have plenty of Arabs studying medicine here, perhaps you got confused?

[HoreTore]

Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.

A wonderful example of balkan nationalist mentality.

America, ready your bombers....

Got any proof that these are not ad-hoc cases or simply dark skinned Europeans or middle easterners? We have plenty of Arabs studying medicine here, perhaps you got confused?

Hilarious.

I have no idea if any Roma get higher education in Bulgaria. Given the regimes there, it wouldn't surprise me that much if the number was zero or close to zero.

In civilized states built on enlightenment and law as opposed to tribalism and oppression however, Roma do attend university and integrate into society.

[Kralizec]

Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.

I don't know what incident you're referring to (in regards to Milosovic)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Roma apologist. I'm sure they'll find excuses to complain one way or the other regardless of what's done or not done. The SWAT part was hyperbole, meant to express that the state should ensure every kid gets a minimum of education, even those with uncooperative parents.

[HoreTore]

I don't know what incident you're referring to (in regards to Milosovic)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Roma apologist. I'm sure they'll find excuses to complain one way or the other regardless of what's done or not done. The SWAT part was hyperbole, meant to express that the state should ensure every kid gets a minimum of education, even those with uncooperative parents.

A little on the side, but anyway:

In On Freedom, the second part of the book is dedicated to practical applications of the theories on liberty in the first part of the book. There, Mill argues that given his theory of liberalism, parents should be hanged if their children don't perform well at school.

[Kralizec]

I have that book, the original English text. It's called On Liberty

Been a while since I've read it.

[Myth]

A wonderful example of balkan nationalist mentality.

America, ready your bombers....

You clearly have no clue HoreTore. Trying to use any force agianst a minority creates such problems, that's why the Roma get away with more than they should.

Hilarious.

I have no idea if any Roma get higher education in Bulgaria. Given the regimes there, it wouldn't surprise me that much if the number was zero or close to zero.

In civilized states built on enlightenment and law as opposed to tribalism and oppression however, Roma do attend university and integrate into society.

So, apart from the fact that you're implying Bulgaria is an uncivilized state built on tribalism and oppression (Which is funny, you may look up how old the Bulgarian nation is and when we had written language and advanced architecture) you're saying that in Glorious Mother Norway everyone has a university diploma and the gypsies are all productive members of society? Can you show me facts or you will just continue blowing hot air?

Also, I want to clearly state that I do believe the corrupt and inept government certainly has a part in the problem and it could do much better, but it is absolutely preposterous to say that the gypsies are just regular misunderstood folk and that it's all part of some grand intolerance towards them. YOU haven't seen a "roma" from 50 meters away, you've never stepped inside a ghetto, your grandparents don't have them as neighbours in your village, so therefore your argument is biased and based on assumptions and information fed to you by the media.

[HoreTore]

I have that book, the original English text. It's called On Liberty

Been a while since I've read it.

Gah, of course. I have a norwegian translation called "Om Friheten", and the word "frihet" translates as both "liberty" and "freedom"...

Myth, I wasn't talking about using force against roma. I was talking about the need for another Milosevic-operation. We'll get there sooner or later if the balkans don't shape up soon.

[Myth]

Ain't no one arguing for extermination and genocide, but now I think the western countries are overcompensating up to the point the when justice has to be delivered it can't be done without raising a red flag somewhere on the other side of Europe that those damn Balkan peeps are molesting the gypsies again.

I can show you a video documentary where anonymous cops are admitting that arrests are impossible in the Roma ghettoes. They come out in droves of 50-100 and threaten and shove the cops away. If this was America they would have gotten shot in their damn faces, but if it happens here the conflict will escalate and the gendarmerie will have to move in. And then we have Faux news blabbering about "Civil unrest and trampling of human rights against ethnic minorities." When Bulgarian students go out to protest they get beaten with batons, but the cops refuse do use the special police forces against the Roma, because if nothing else, the Roma have learned that there is strength in numbers and unity and they all stick together. That's why it's funny when urban legends about skinheads going and beating them abound - everyone who's been in a ghetto or even a bar fight that involves Roma knows that you're not fighting one guy or two guys but every gypsy within a radius of half a kilometer.

They rioted, right here in Sofia, a few years back. They had come out wielding knives, scimithars, pitchforks, staves and other assorted arms from the 1200s and shouted how heads will roll. The police had shrunk back like a scrotum in cold water, from fear that if they use their shields and batons the fighting will not end there and fundamentally we're back to square 1. So the current (retarded) decision of the government is to leave them be and let them steal, beg, prostitute and rape instead of having a much messier problem on their hands, one which could possibly make us seem even more incompetent before Brussels (but I think that's rather hard to achieve).

If you see videos of the riots in Spain you see police brutality abounds. For example this:



America isn't bombing them because that's acceptable, since ethnic Spaniards are having their heads caved in. If we do that here in order to remove the illegal buildings, to evict/arrest those who have broken the law, to stop the bands who lie to elderly people over the phone and steal their savings, to stop those who steal livestock and produce in the rural areas (heck, they even steal the doors off of people's fences) we would get a knee-jerk reaction from western europe that we're bullying the minorities. And believe me the roma stick together so much that it's impossible to bring law in their ghettoes without the aforementioned methods.

[Sarmatian]

It's already done, so this post isn't relevant.

Yeah, for like 5%, after centuries of effort.

Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.

That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.

I agree, but for 300,000 Roma, that's one million policemen. In a country of 8 million people.

It's hard to do anything because they're simply outside the system. No address, no telephone number, no job, no schooling, no birth control, no family planning, no goals (in out western sense), no care for their children, no nothing.

You put a gypsy in jail, it's like a vacation for him - hey, it's free food, warm room and more comfortable bed. And I don't have to do anything? Take me in, I'm yours. And then 12 (aged from 3 to 15) of his kids are out on the street begging. And he doesn't care. Usually, they're on the streets even before to get him more money.

I'm all for integrating them, but they resisted it for centuries. And then you have people and NGO's from the west blubbering nonsense how it's easy and it could be done in the blink of an eye if someone just wanted it. After that they open an office in <insert Balkan country>, receive 5 times local average salary for doing absolutely nothing but sitting in a nicely furnished office with air-condition on, repeating the same phrase like a parrot.

[Kadagar_AV]

HoreTore, I had the same view as you about the "poor gypsies" before I started frequenting Romania some many years ago...

Myth strikes me as a rather normal representative of how they think. The Romanians I met by and large wished for a good solution with the gypsies, given the amount of tension and problems, I think the Romanian people are VERY understanding and accepting, if anything. There are of course the odd extremist, but by and large, I saw a people trying to make their country work with a VERY problematic minority group.

[HoreTore]

This thread delivers.

[Myth]

Well, if we're talking Romania: I visited Bucharest 3 times this year. In the summer, I parked my car in the dead center - next to that big mall with the screens protruding out of it's side. There's an excellent pedestrian area full of pubs and young (and hot) people there. One hundred meters to the right i saw a bunch of Roma, bare footed and dirty, listening to some loud oriental crap on their car radio and washing their carpet with a hose in the middle of the street.

[Sarmatian]

This thread delivers.

But you don't. I'm waiting to hear something constructive from you instead of balkan = barbarians mantra.

[HoreTore]

But you don't. I'm waiting to hear something constructive from you instead of balkan = barbarians mantra.

Nah, I grew my e-penis to new lengths in TR's thread, I'm good for now.

Edit: okay then, I guess I can grow it a couple of mm's. Two points:

1. I find it fascinating that someone from a country(Bulgaria) where one in five people of working age spends their time sitting on their bums watching the telly are complaining that "those other guys" are sitting on their bums watching telly.

2. The employment rate for Roma in Albania is higher than the employment rate of the general population. Why would I want to debate with someone who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, Sarmatian(ref your 5% comment)? Is it unreasonable to want a debate where the participants have a minimum of knowledge?

[Myth]

Nah, I grew my e-penis to new lengths in TR's thread, I'm good for now.

Edit: okay then, I guess I can grow it a couple of mm's. Two points:

1. I find it fascinating that someone from a country(Bulgaria) where one in five people of working age spends their time sitting on their bums watching the telly are complaining that "those other guys" are sitting on their bums watching telly.

Nope. You seem to have a problem differentiating between your own opinion and how you imagine things are and established facts that back up your argument. The current unemployment rate in Bulgaria is 12,4% and that includes the mooching gypsies with 18 kids per family. Compare that to Spain and Greece. Now go try harder.

Also, I am not complaining that they are sitting and watching the telly, I am complaining that they would rather harm the society that feeds them than try and learn and work. If they all sat back and ate tree bark and didn't bother anyone I'd hardly have a problem, but when they stole money from both my grandparents, when they steal produce and livestock and deliberately teach their children that pickpocketing and begging is more profitable than school, then I have a problem. I myself am working since I've been 22 without missing more than two consecutive weeks between jobs. The young people who chose to remain here (because many are successful in western Europe and the USA) are working, albeit they are forced to go to the capital and other big cities. But urbanization is hardly a local issue.

This comment once again proves you know nothing of the Balkan region and our countries, but you like talking out of your diddly-hole.

2. The employment rate for Roma in Albania is higher than the employment rate of the general population. Why would I want to debate with someone who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, Sarmatian(ref your 5% comment)? Is it unreasonable to want a debate where the participants have a minimum of knowledge?

Albania is whole 'nother story, one which is not relevant to the topic at hand. For one, the social politics (child care, unemployment aid etc.) are probably designed so that moochers can't live off the taxpayers. The faulty system here allows them to, and that is a legitimate issue.

[HoreTore]

Do continue.

[Myth]

Do continue.

I see you have nothing to say so I think you can leave the discussion.

[HoreTore]

I must correct an embarrassing mistake: the figure for Albania I fiund was old pre-financial crisis. I can't find a proper up-to-date number, but from what I gather the roma figure is higher than the general population today.

Still, small matter when the topic is Der Evige Juden Roma.