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Thread: Sweden 2012

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Really? No, really? That is your argument?

    I'm not sure the girl who were gang raped by 7 Negroes agrees with you. I'm not sure the 12 year old guy being assaulted and robbed of hiss cell phone by an immigrant gang agrees with you.

    That you spit on the severity of these crimes absolutely disgusts me.
    This post amuses me. In more ways than one.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    This post amuses me. In more ways than one.
    Well, You seem to have severe issues then.

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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If the number of reported burglaries and rapes goes down, it's just because fewer people are reporting them? We must assume that crimes other than murder are static at all times except when the murder rate is changing? That's what the implication seems to be...
    Nah, of course not. The point is, that for those playing the numbers game, murder is the one to pick. That's the only fool-proof stat, all the others have major obstacles to them and needs a lot more attention than just comparing a number or two. If you want a stat to give a view of the general crime level, and particularly crime level changes over time, you need a reliable stat. That's the murder stat, as it is only affected by the amount of murders going up and down, the other stats are affected by a zillion other factors.

    As an experiment:

    Compare the rate of murder in 1950 and compare it to the present. Ask yourself if the picture you get is correct. Now take the rape stat from 1950 and compare it to the present. Again ask yourself if the picture is correct. Feel free to use any country you want.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 11-09-2012 at 00:31.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Nah, of course not. The point is, that for those playing the numbers game, murder is the one to pick. That's the only fool-proof stat, all the others have major obstacles to them and needs a lot more attention than just comparing a number or two. If you want a stat to give a view of the general crime level, and particularly crime level changes over time, you need a reliable stat. That's the murder stat, as it is only affected by the amount of murders going up and down, the other stats are affected by a zillion other factors.
    By this logic, it doesn't matter what gun laws USA have. Right?

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    By this logic, it doesn't matter what gun laws USA have. Right?
    No, again, lrn2read. Strawmen works best in the fields.

    We were talking about Sweden, weren't we? You haven't passed a law affecting murder since ever. If the US drastically changed their gunlaws, this may or may not affect the murder stat. Whether it will affect it or which way isn't something I've pondered. Also, I have no idea how reliable their murder stat is to begin with. It may not be as reliable as here, I don't know.

    And do remember that it's not about the number of murders, which is irrelevant in this discussion. What's important is how reliable a statistic the murder stat is. How accurately the number in the statistic reflect the actual number.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 11-09-2012 at 00:38.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  6. #36

    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Why are we acting like the murder rate is a fool proof stat? You can't tell exactly how many murders there have been.

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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    HT, So just because, say, Somalis aren't more likely to kill, they are not more likely to rape then?

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    In rape you are third as a percentage of population and tied with Finland for that ranking. 1.1% of the Swedish population are rape victims. Considering that it is almost all females that makes it even a higher likelihood of being raped. That is about 104500 victims.
    I don't want to get into the Swedish immigration debate right now because it's going to take too much of my time, but I just want to point out a couple of facts regarding Swedish rape statistics. One important explanation for the high Swedish rape rates is the fact that Swedish rape laws since 2005 are more including than the laws of most other countries. Cases that earlier would have been classified as sexual exploitation are now classified as rape. Since 2005, the numbers of charges for sexual exploitation have decreased and those for rape have increased.

    You can read about the Swedish statistics for rape and sex offence here (an article in English at the website of the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention) if you are interested. Another factor that they point out, which I think is very important, is a growing tendency to report rape crimes to the police (probably due to increased gender equality among other things). Of course Sweden doesn't have the third most rapes in the world. The claim that Sweden has more rapes than, say, Congo is of course completely absurd.

    I don't know where you looked up the statistics, but Nationmaster presents the same statistics and is the top hit on Google, so I suppose that's your source. If you look at the bottom of the page you'll see the claim that "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."

    Furthermore, Finland - our neighbouring country that has the same rape percentage as Sweden - barely has any immigration at all.


    EDIT: Horetore got ahead of me at some parts, but whatevs.
    Last edited by Paltmull; 11-09-2012 at 00:46.

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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Why are we acting like the murder rate is a fool proof stat? You can't tell exactly how many murders there have been.
    I have no idea about the US, but here in Norway and Sweden: yup, we can.

    There are only two real possibilities of mistakes in the stat. One is if people like to sink ships as a way of murder. The other is if junkies give each other overdoses to kill each other. I don't consider either to be very likely.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  10. #40
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    SFTS, now you have, in each and every comment, called me by a new name. Till now I have let you go as I hoped you'd grow out of it, but really. If you want me to give you a respectful reply, you will have to try a little bit harder.
    Why do I have to settle on just one, Erik?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Sweden a haven for crime? Hah! Now I've heard it all.

    Like in Norway, the most reliable measure of crime rate is the number of murders. Murders are the "highest crime", and one can easily assume that an increase or decrease in murders means an increase or decrease in general crime. Murder is also the only fool-proof crime stat. All murders are known, and almost all murders are solved(95% in norway, I assume sweden is the same, excluding pm murders of course). That gives zero dark numbers, as opposed to the extreme dark numbers we find in rape or theft, for example(which nearly nobody reports). An increase in reported rapes, for example, does not necessarily mean an increase in actual rapes taking place, it's more likely that it's due to more people reporting it. An increase in murders is a dead give-away, that means more murders period.

    So how are things in Sweden? It's about 90 per year. We have around 30 per year with half the population, so you have a little more than us. And it's gone down over the last 20 years. With increased immigration, you have less crime. Yeah, better kick that pakistani doctor out before he kills anyone.

    In conclusion: Sweden are among the countries with the lowest crime rates in the world, and decreasing. People right of center like to paint the devil on the wall and scream about how the world is coming to an end. Life goes on. Everything is how it should be.

    Edit: For your amusement.
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  11. #41
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Paltmull, So now explain why 50% of the Swedish rapes are committed by immigrants?

    We don't talk about Finland, they have a whole other culture and ethnicity.

    You can NOT argue that immigrants aren't the major factor in why our rape statistics have sky rocketed, no matter how much you want to blame it on changes in procedure. Again, 50%... Until we have 50% immigrants, it is clearly an over representation.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Sfts: I am of course referring solely to the situation in Norway and our commie neighbors. I have no idea how well this applies to any other country, but I'm guessing "not in the slightest".

    Except for the "choose the most reliable stat if you want to play with numbers"-thing, of course. That one is universal(which you should know unless you slept through maths).
    Last edited by HoreTore; 11-09-2012 at 00:47.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Paltmull View Post
    I don't want to get into the Swedish immigration debate right now because it's going to take too much of my time, but I just want to point out a couple of facts regarding Swedish rape statistics. One important explanation for the high Swedish rape rates is the fact that Swedish rape laws since 2005 are more including than the laws of most other countries. Cases that earlier would have been classified as sexual exploitation are now classified as rape. Since 2005, the numbers of charges for sexual exploitation have decreased and those for rape have increased.

    You can read about the Swedish statistics for rape and sex offence here (an article in English at the website of the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention) if you are interested. Another factor that they point out, which I think is very important, is a growing tendency to report rape crimes to the police (probably due to increased gender equality among other things). Of course Sweden doesn't have the third most rapes in the world. The claim that Sweden has more rapes than, say, Congo is of course completely absurd.

    I don't know where you looked up the statistics, but Nationmaster presents the same statistics and is the top hit on Google, so I suppose that's your source. If you look at the bottom of the page you'll see the claim that "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."

    Furthermore, Finland - our neighbouring country that has the same rape percentage as Sweden - barely has any immigration at all.


    EDIT: Horetore got ahead of me at some parts, but whatevs.
    Brilliant, of course.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Why do I have to settle on just one, Erik?
    Well, Strike For The South, You honestly don't. You can go on behaving like a child, but then You can't expect me to treat You like an adult, as by answering Your actual arguments.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Sfts: I am of course referring solely to the situation in Norway and our commie neighbors. I have no idea how well this applies to any other country, but I'm guessing "not in the slightest".

    Except for the "choose the most reliable stat if you want to play with numbers"-thing, of course. That one is universal(which you should know unless you slept through maths).
    Do you have any actual citations for this or are you just all hat and no cattle?

    I think you've conveniently picked a crime that has trended downwards and attached a singular reason to it. All the while ignoring all other variables

    I wish I had more math teachers like you

    Well, Strike For The South, You honestly don't. You can go on behaving like a child, but then You can't expect me to treat You like an adult, as by answering Your actual arguments.
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    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Brilliant, of course.
    Not really, as I debunked it by asking why then 50% of the rapes are made by immigrants :)

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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Do you have any actual citations for this or are you just all hat and no cattle?

    I think you've conveniently picked a crime that has trended downwards and attached a singular reason to it. All the while ignoring all other variables

    I wish I had more math teachers like you
    It was actually surprising to see that the Swedish one has gone down - ours hasn't. Here it went up in the 80's, then down in the 90's. Discounting 2011 of course....

    The Norwegian Police is, like any other branch of government, very fond of releasing various reports every now and then. The reports on violent crimes states that the police thinks unreported murders are close to non-existant. I tend to believe they know what they're talking about. With a 95% conviction rate for murder, we also know for sure who's doing the killings here, and can split them up any way we like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Not really, as I debunked it by asking why then 50% of the rapes are made by immigrants :)
    That just made me chuckle.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    It was actually surprising to see that the Swedish one has gone down - ours hasn't. Here it went up in the 80's, then down in the 90's. Discounting 2011 of course....

    The Norwegian Police is, like any other branch of government, very fond of releasing various reports every now and then. The reports on violent crimes states that the police thinks unreported murders are close to non-existant. I tend to believe they know what they're talking about. With a 95% conviction rate for murder, we also know for sure who's doing the killings here, and can split them up any way we like.
    It's not so surprising... Sweden has done a lot of work to let even the pettiest criminal understand that if you kill someone, ALL HELL SOCIETY CAN BRING WILL BE BROUGHT DOWN ON YOU.

    That is, of course, also why I consider murder statistics to be useless. The criminals know their leash, and they know that murder will have them sent to jail and everyone in their vicinity under close surveillance, including severe harassment.

    Basically, the leaders of the organized crime do more to prevent murder than anyone else. In their own interest, cause rest assured, if one of their underlings murder someone they WILL go down with them.


    EDIT: Why are you chuckling at 50% of rapes being committed by immigrants?
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 01:06.

  19. #49
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Paltmull, So now explain why 50% of the Swedish rapes are committed by immigrants?

    We don't talk about Finland, they have a whole other culture and ethnicity.

    You can NOT argue that immigrants aren't the major factor in why our rape statistics have sky rocketed, no matter how much you want to blame it on changes in procedure. Again, 50%... Until we have 50% immigrants, it is clearly an over representation.
    I suppose that you're referring to the survey made by the Sweden Democrats (our biggest nationalist party) in 2010? That survey has been criticized quite a lot for various reasons. But regardless of the numbers, it is indeed a fact that immigrants are over-represented in the percentage of those charged with rape. That correlation is however weakened quite a lot when checked against other variables such as income, level of education etc., but not entirely. But a 50% correlation is probably way too much when considering other variables.

    Source: http://blog.svd.se/faktakollen/2010/...-valdtaktsvag/

    What's more important, however, is that 99.8 percent of immigrants in Sweden are not suspected for having commited rape. It's quite an insult towards the overwhelming majority of immigrants, who would never think of raping anyone, to use rape statistics as an argument against immigration as a whole.
    Last edited by Paltmull; 11-09-2012 at 01:44.

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  20. #50
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Paltmull, my figures does not come from SD, they come from Katrin Lainpelto (doktor i processrätt).

    What variables are You talking about? 50% of our rapes are committed by immigrants. There are no "factors" there. It doesn't matter if the immigrant is poor or left handed.

    If you THEN start to divide it by culture you would find that East-Asians are actually UNDER-represented. So it's not like I blame "all immigrants". I am more than well aware that it's not the German engineers either, who are the main offenders.
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 01:51. Reason: sp

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Paltmull, my figures does not come from SD, they come from Katrin Lainpelto (doktor i processrätt).

    What variables are You talking about? 50% of our rapes are committed by immigrants. There are no "factors" there. It doesn't matter if the immigrant is poor or left handed.

    If you THEN start to divide it by culture you would find that East-Asians are actually UNDER-represented. So it's not like I blame "all immigrants". I am more than well aware that it's not the German engineers either, who are the main offenders.
    Those other variables tell us that this may largely be a class and education issue rather than a foreigners-with-different-cultures issue. Although there are probably cultural reasons in some cases.

    Still, a very overwhelming majority of immigrants are not rapists, and that goes for the middle eastern ones that you are reffering to as well.

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  22. #52
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Paltmull View Post
    Those other variables tell us that this may largely be a class and education issue rather than a foreigners-with-different-cultures issue. Although there are probably cultural reasons in some cases.

    Still, a very overwhelming majority of immigrants are not rapists, and that goes for the middle eastern ones that you are reffering to as well.
    Good on you!! You have accepted cultural differences...

    And they might not be as small as you are lead to believe.

    Yes of course not all immigrants are rapists, but some immigrant groups are several hundred % more likely to commit rape, so if you have a political system letting that immigrant group in without any sort of control, you are bound to have some blonde girls experiencing a clash of cultures they would have been better off without. Agreed?

    EDIT: Several tens of thousands of girls actually, going by the statistics (which is scary in a country of 9 million).
    EDIT2: Middle Eastern? Really? You think THAT is the problem? Africans are the real ladykillers. North and sub Saharans.
    EDIT3: Let us remember that Iranians allegedly builds nukes. Afghans and Somalis build spears. Or have they got their own gun powder production on yet?
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 03:00.

  23. #53
    Member Member Paltmull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Good on you!! You have accepted cultural differences...

    And they might not be as small as you are lead to believe.
    Yes they might.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV;
    Yes of course not all immigrants are rapists, but some immigrant groups are several hundred % more likely to commit rape, so if you have a political system letting that immigrant group in without any sort of control, you are bound to have some blonde girls experiencing a clash of cultures they would have been better off without. Agreed?
    No.

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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Don't miss my edits :)

    Oh, and what do you disagree with? Just "no" isn't much to go on.

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    I've already made my points. I'm done here. As I said in my first post, I'm not interested in joining an immigration discussion. Besides, your racism and perverse way of describing sexual violence towards women ("blonde girls experiencing a clash of cultures they would have been better off without", "Africans are the real ladykillers") is quite disgusting. Not interested, thank you. Good night.

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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??

    EDIT: Did you just think you won the argument by screaming racism and perverse?
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 03:37. Reason: sp

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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    they obsess with liberalism, progressivism, "being on the right side of history", etc. This type of personality is natural for academics, and the media naturally draws on academic types for their employees, and they quote experts from the same source. So certain things get a tremendous backing.
    You forget to mention the fundamental good ideas of this point of view and if more people had it, how even better the world would be.
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  28. #58
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    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Paltmull, what I think you misunderstand here, is that I see a cultural thing, not a race thing.

    You think that I blame Africans of overly raping "because they are black". That is ludicrous.

    I very matter of factually state that Afghans and Somalis rape women more than others. It's not because they are black, that would even be factually wrong. It's not because they have it in their DNA either.

    I argue that they are over represented because they come straight from where we used to be some 1000 years ago, when the Vikings pillaged and raped the closest ones around. They come STRAIGHT from those conditions, have a look at what state Somalia and Afghanistan are in.

    You cant expect a people with a mindset a millennium or so back - to in a day completely adhere to western standards. You need to MONITOR and SUPERVISE them into society. What we do now is to dump them in and hope for the best.

    Before you start screaming "RACIST", it might do you well to hear people out.
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 04:14. Reason: sp

  29. #59

    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    You forget to mention the fundamental good ideas of this point of view and if more people had it, how even better the world would be.
    I didn't forget it, because it's not true.

    There are conservatives, left wing reformers, and libertarians who don't use politics to fill a gap in their soul (or however it's best to describe it). They generally get along with each other even though they disagree. If more people were like them, the world would be much better off. Romney and Obama are both in this category by the way, and predictably they are both portrayed as extreme by partisans on the other side.

    The puritans and idealogues of each group write their own versions of history to make the fanatics of the past seem indispensable, but they weren't.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Sweden 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    The flip side of that is thus: People who are obsessively moderate are not more 'rational' or 'concliatory' they are merely cowards who refuse to take a stand. People who are obsessively 'moderate' are happy to let the world pass them by, support the status quo, and leave problems for other people and future generations.

    At some point people will have to take an idealogical stand. This has been proven again and again throughout history.
    We aren't talking about people who are obsessively moderate

    I said: conservatives, left wing reformers, libertarians--these are world views, they have ideas and principles. These people aren't happy to let the world pass them by and support the status quo. That doesn't describe either Obama or Romney. They are passionate, but not ideologues.

    Kucinich, Paul, and Bachmann are recent ideologues that come to mind. All three are terrible.

    At some point people will have to take an idealogical stand. This has been proven again and again throughout history. Supporting only moderates benefits nobody but those who already control and manipulate the system. You need 'fanatics' and 'idealogues' to keep things fresh, and you really need them if some kind of revolution is ever called for.\

    *Bear in mind I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think any good democracy needs a mixture of radical ideas and nogotiable attitudes.
    I can't really support this, but:

    From what I've read of history, the fanatics screw things up horribly, and we rewrite history later to make them heroes.

    The loyalists were right in the American revolution. But you'll never hear about it from either party. And the libertarians especially love the patriots--that anti-tax fanaticism is right up their alley. 100,000 dead and 60,000 forced refugees, when we could have just stayed British until we naturally separated. There was no "design to reduce us under absolute despotism". And perhaps under the British we would have solved our slavery problem without another 600,000 dead.

    Nationalists, communists, and fascists are all fanatical too remember.

    Those "in control of the system" rarely have that much power--or at least they didn't through much of history. Most civilizations had to make the emperor a god (fanaticism again) in order to give him real power. Kings in medieval europe were not nearly as powerful as we have them in popular imagination. It's taken modern times, and fanatical revolutions, to create the powerful dictators again.
    Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 11-09-2012 at 05:05.

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