Nah, of course not. The point is, that for those playing the numbers game, murder is the one to pick. That's the only fool-proof stat, all the others have major obstacles to them and needs a lot more attention than just comparing a number or two. If you want a stat to give a view of the general crime level, and particularly crime level changes over time, you need a reliable stat. That's the murder stat, as it is only affected by the amount of murders going up and down, the other stats are affected by a zillion other factors.
As an experiment:
Compare the rate of murder in 1950 and compare it to the present. Ask yourself if the picture you get is correct. Now take the rape stat from 1950 and compare it to the present. Again ask yourself if the picture is correct. Feel free to use any country you want.
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-09-2012 at 00:31.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
No, again, lrn2read. Strawmen works best in the fields.
We were talking about Sweden, weren't we? You haven't passed a law affecting murder since ever. If the US drastically changed their gunlaws, this may or may not affect the murder stat. Whether it will affect it or which way isn't something I've pondered. Also, I have no idea how reliable their murder stat is to begin with. It may not be as reliable as here, I don't know.
And do remember that it's not about the number of murders, which is irrelevant in this discussion. What's important is how reliable a statistic the murder stat is. How accurately the number in the statistic reflect the actual number.
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-09-2012 at 00:38.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Why are we acting like the murder rate is a fool proof stat? You can't tell exactly how many murders there have been.
HT, So just because, say, Somalis aren't more likely to kill, they are not more likely to rape then?
I don't want to get into the Swedish immigration debate right now because it's going to take too much of my time, but I just want to point out a couple of facts regarding Swedish rape statistics. One important explanation for the high Swedish rape rates is the fact that Swedish rape laws since 2005 are more including than the laws of most other countries. Cases that earlier would have been classified as sexual exploitation are now classified as rape. Since 2005, the numbers of charges for sexual exploitation have decreased and those for rape have increased.
You can read about the Swedish statistics for rape and sex offence here (an article in English at the website of the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention) if you are interested. Another factor that they point out, which I think is very important, is a growing tendency to report rape crimes to the police (probably due to increased gender equality among other things). Of course Sweden doesn't have the third most rapes in the world. The claim that Sweden has more rapes than, say, Congo is of course completely absurd.
I don't know where you looked up the statistics, but Nationmaster presents the same statistics and is the top hit on Google, so I suppose that's your source. If you look at the bottom of the page you'll see the claim that "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."
Furthermore, Finland - our neighbouring country that has the same rape percentage as Sweden - barely has any immigration at all.
EDIT: Horetore got ahead of me at some parts, but whatevs.
Last edited by Paltmull; 11-09-2012 at 00:46.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I have no idea about the US, but here in Norway and Sweden: yup, we can.
There are only two real possibilities of mistakes in the stat. One is if people like to sink ships as a way of murder. The other is if junkies give each other overdoses to kill each other. I don't consider either to be very likely.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Paltmull, So now explain why 50% of the Swedish rapes are committed by immigrants?
We don't talk about Finland, they have a whole other culture and ethnicity.
You can NOT argue that immigrants aren't the major factor in why our rape statistics have sky rocketed, no matter how much you want to blame it on changes in procedure. Again, 50%... Until we have 50% immigrants, it is clearly an over representation.
Sfts: I am of course referring solely to the situation in Norway and our commie neighbors. I have no idea how well this applies to any other country, but I'm guessing "not in the slightest".
Except for the "choose the most reliable stat if you want to play with numbers"-thing, of course. That one is universal(which you should know unless you slept through maths).
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-09-2012 at 00:47.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Do you have any actual citations for this or are you just all hat and no cattle?
I think you've conveniently picked a crime that has trended downwards and attached a singular reason to it. All the while ignoring all other variables
I wish I had more math teachers like you
One less person to correct, HelgaWell, Strike For The South, You honestly don't. You can go on behaving like a child, but then You can't expect me to treat You like an adult, as by answering Your actual arguments.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
It was actually surprising to see that the Swedish one has gone down - ours hasn't. Here it went up in the 80's, then down in the 90's. Discounting 2011 of course....
The Norwegian Police is, like any other branch of government, very fond of releasing various reports every now and then. The reports on violent crimes states that the police thinks unreported murders are close to non-existant. I tend to believe they know what they're talking about. With a 95% conviction rate for murder, we also know for sure who's doing the killings here, and can split them up any way we like.
That just made me chuckle.![]()
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
It's not so surprising... Sweden has done a lot of work to let even the pettiest criminal understand that if you kill someone, ALL HELL SOCIETY CAN BRING WILL BE BROUGHT DOWN ON YOU.
That is, of course, also why I consider murder statistics to be useless. The criminals know their leash, and they know that murder will have them sent to jail and everyone in their vicinity under close surveillance, including severe harassment.
Basically, the leaders of the organized crime do more to prevent murder than anyone else. In their own interest, cause rest assured, if one of their underlings murder someone they WILL go down with them.
EDIT: Why are you chuckling at 50% of rapes being committed by immigrants?
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 01:06.
I suppose that you're referring to the survey made by the Sweden Democrats (our biggest nationalist party) in 2010? That survey has been criticized quite a lot for various reasons. But regardless of the numbers, it is indeed a fact that immigrants are over-represented in the percentage of those charged with rape. That correlation is however weakened quite a lot when checked against other variables such as income, level of education etc., but not entirely. But a 50% correlation is probably way too much when considering other variables.
Source: http://blog.svd.se/faktakollen/2010/...-valdtaktsvag/
What's more important, however, is that 99.8 percent of immigrants in Sweden are not suspected for having commited rape. It's quite an insult towards the overwhelming majority of immigrants, who would never think of raping anyone, to use rape statistics as an argument against immigration as a whole.
Last edited by Paltmull; 11-09-2012 at 01:44.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Paltmull, my figures does not come from SD, they come from Katrin Lainpelto (doktor i processrätt).
What variables are You talking about? 50% of our rapes are committed by immigrants. There are no "factors" there. It doesn't matter if the immigrant is poor or left handed.
If you THEN start to divide it by culture you would find that East-Asians are actually UNDER-represented. So it's not like I blame "all immigrants". I am more than well aware that it's not the German engineers either, who are the main offenders.
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 01:51. Reason: sp
Those other variables tell us that this may largely be a class and education issue rather than a foreigners-with-different-cultures issue. Although there are probably cultural reasons in some cases.
Still, a very overwhelming majority of immigrants are not rapists, and that goes for the middle eastern ones that you are reffering to as well.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Good on you!! You have accepted cultural differences...
And they might not be as small as you are lead to believe.
Yes of course not all immigrants are rapists, but some immigrant groups are several hundred % more likely to commit rape, so if you have a political system letting that immigrant group in without any sort of control, you are bound to have some blonde girls experiencing a clash of cultures they would have been better off without. Agreed?
EDIT: Several tens of thousands of girls actually, going by the statistics (which is scary in a country of 9 million).
EDIT2: Middle Eastern? Really? You think THAT is the problem? Africans are the real ladykillers. North and sub Saharans.
EDIT3: Let us remember that Iranians allegedly builds nukes. Afghans and Somalis build spears. Or have they got their own gun powder production on yet?
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 03:00.
Don't miss my edits :)
Oh, and what do you disagree with? Just "no" isn't much to go on.
I've already made my points. I'm done here. As I said in my first post, I'm not interested in joining an immigration discussion. Besides, your racism and perverse way of describing sexual violence towards women ("blonde girls experiencing a clash of cultures they would have been better off without", "Africans are the real ladykillers") is quite disgusting. Not interested, thank you. Good night.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
EDIT: Did you just think you won the argument by screaming racism and perverse?
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 03:37. Reason: sp
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Paltmull, what I think you misunderstand here, is that I see a cultural thing, not a race thing.
You think that I blame Africans of overly raping "because they are black". That is ludicrous.
I very matter of factually state that Afghans and Somalis rape women more than others. It's not because they are black, that would even be factually wrong. It's not because they have it in their DNA either.
I argue that they are over represented because they come straight from where we used to be some 1000 years ago, when the Vikings pillaged and raped the closest ones around. They come STRAIGHT from those conditions, have a look at what state Somalia and Afghanistan are in.
You cant expect a people with a mindset a millennium or so back - to in a day completely adhere to western standards. You need to MONITOR and SUPERVISE them into society. What we do now is to dump them in and hope for the best.
Before you start screaming "RACIST", it might do you well to hear people out.
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 11-09-2012 at 04:14. Reason: sp
I didn't forget it, because it's not true.
There are conservatives, left wing reformers, and libertarians who don't use politics to fill a gap in their soul (or however it's best to describe it). They generally get along with each other even though they disagree. If more people were like them, the world would be much better off. Romney and Obama are both in this category by the way, and predictably they are both portrayed as extreme by partisans on the other side.
The puritans and idealogues of each group write their own versions of history to make the fanatics of the past seem indispensable, but they weren't.
We aren't talking about people who are obsessively moderate
I said: conservatives, left wing reformers, libertarians--these are world views, they have ideas and principles. These people aren't happy to let the world pass them by and support the status quo. That doesn't describe either Obama or Romney. They are passionate, but not ideologues.
Kucinich, Paul, and Bachmann are recent ideologues that come to mind. All three are terrible.
I can't really support this, but:At some point people will have to take an idealogical stand. This has been proven again and again throughout history. Supporting only moderates benefits nobody but those who already control and manipulate the system. You need 'fanatics' and 'idealogues' to keep things fresh, and you really need them if some kind of revolution is ever called for.\
*Bear in mind I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think any good democracy needs a mixture of radical ideas and nogotiable attitudes.
From what I've read of history, the fanatics screw things up horribly, and we rewrite history later to make them heroes.
The loyalists were right in the American revolution. But you'll never hear about it from either party. And the libertarians especially love the patriots--that anti-tax fanaticism is right up their alley. 100,000 dead and 60,000 forced refugees, when we could have just stayed British until we naturally separated. There was no "design to reduce us under absolute despotism". And perhaps under the British we would have solved our slavery problem without another 600,000 dead.
Nationalists, communists, and fascists are all fanatical too remember.
Those "in control of the system" rarely have that much power--or at least they didn't through much of history. Most civilizations had to make the emperor a god (fanaticism again) in order to give him real power. Kings in medieval europe were not nearly as powerful as we have them in popular imagination. It's taken modern times, and fanatical revolutions, to create the powerful dictators again.
Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 11-09-2012 at 05:05.
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