North Korea: History Will Judge Us Harshly

[Lemur]

So pretty much all of us are aware that North Korea is hell on earth. Thoughtcrime, torture, disappearances, mass death camps, chronic starvation, so on and so forth. It's about as horrible a situation as human beings can manage, which is saying something, given the cruelty and sadism of our species.

So what, if anything, should we be doing about it? Seems to this lemur that the only people with real leverage are the Chinese. Could we be be doing more to convince our friends in Beijing to do ... something? If so, what? If not, why? As the title of the thread states, history will judge us harshly. We know that something every bit as bad as the Holocaust is going on. Like the sign on the synagogue says, with unintentional irony, "Never again is now."

Some thoughts:

Everybody involved with North Korea knows what’s happening. There’s no illusion as to how bad the regime is. The illusion is in the sense that we can’t solve it, that we think that this is an inevitable crisis that cannot be fixed or that we have no right or ability to do anything about it. I think that North Korea is not just an issue for human rights. This place is almost this black hole for modern civilization. [...]

This is very different from the Holocaust in one very important measure. It’s that we have documentable, verifiable, overwhelming evidence that anybody can access. There was evidence during the Holocaust that policymakers had access to that that they did not choose to act on that they could have. And many people will say, “If I was in that position back then, I would have acted differently.”

Well, today, everybody watching this online or on C-Span or in the room can go home and Google or Bing or whatever you like and you can find concentration camps.

[Lemur]

Classic reprint: A Nation of Racist Dwarfs

Here are the two most shattering facts about North Korea. First, when viewed by satellite photography at night, it is an area of unrelieved darkness. Barely a scintilla of light is visible even in the capital city. (See this famous photograph.) Second, a North Korean is on average six inches shorter than a South Korean. You may care to imagine how much surplus value has been wrung out of such a slave, and for how long, in order to feed and sustain the militarized crime family that completely owns both the country and its people. [...]

Unlike previous racist dictatorships, the North Korean one has actually succeeded in producing a sort of new species. Starving and stunted dwarves, living in the dark, kept in perpetual ignorance and fear, brainwashed into the hatred of others, regimented and coerced and inculcated with a death cult: This horror show is in our future, and is so ghastly that our own darling leaders dare not face it and can only peep through their fingers at what is coming.

[rvg]

I think we're done with exporting democracy and human rights to unwilling buyers. Of course the situation in North Korea is nothing short of tragic, but imho we shouldn't intervene. With a million man army and possibly nukes the NK campaign would likely produce more harm than good. I sympathize with the people of North Korea, but we should stay our hand unless we are provoked militarily .

[Lemur]

imho we shouldn't intervene.

the only people with real leverage are the Chinese. Could we be be doing more to convince our friends in Beijing to do ... something? If so, what? If not, why?

This is really about whether or how we should work through the Chinese. Who may or may not be amenable to doing anything at all.

[drone]

Toppling the regime might actually be fairly easy. The trouble, as always, is what to do with the mess left behind. The task of integrating the North into a unified Korea will be orders of magnitude more costly than East Germany, and how do you "re-educate" (for the lack of a better term) a nation of people so brainwashed? And does China really want a unified, western-friendly Korea on it's doorstep?

[rory_20_uk]

The biggest problem was in the Korean War when the Allies went too close to China.
The second has been letting North Korea amass such a lot of weapons. And it is only getting worse. Each time we give in with aid they use this to maximise resources spent on weaponry to wring the next lot of freebies out.

The "best" long term option would be to neutron bomb the whole place. Mass murder now to prevent worse later on. I do not see those in charge divesting themselves of weaponry willingly.

[HopAlongBunny]

China has no good reason to do anything with regard to NK.

It maintains a "friendly", weak client state. The military in NK might be large but it is 0 threat to China.

I can't see any reason for China to wish for a change. I see very few levers that could be used; China is the West's source of bargain goods, many of which we have given up producing. I would love to hear from someone with sophisticated knowledge of China/Asia, but from my limited perspective there is no reason for China to desire a change.

[Beskar]

The thing about China is that it doesn't want the refugees from North Korea which it will get in outbreak of any kind of war. Best China can do in its interest is to control Korea from the top and since North Korea needs China far more than China needs North Korea, China can influence the direction it takes, especially under its new leader who may be convinced to do things more favourably to them.

[Lemur]

In related news, The Onion names Kim Jong Un "sexiest man alive," and China's People's Daily reports it as fact. Previous winners: Bashar al-Assad, Bernie Madoff, Charles and David Koch, Ted Kaczynski.

U.S. website The Onion has named North Korean supreme leader Kim Jong Un as the "Sexiest Man Alive for the year 2012".

"With his devastatingly handsome, round face, his boyish charm, and his strong, sturdy frame, this Pyongyang-bred heartthrob is every woman's dream come true. Blessed with an air of power that masks an unmistakable cute, cuddly side, Kim made this newspaper's editorial board swoon with his impeccable fashion sense, chic short hairstyle, and, of course, that famous smile," it said.

"He has that rare ability to somehow be completely adorable and completely macho at the same time," said Marissa Blake-Zweiber, editor of The Onion Style and Entertainment.

[Montmorency]

The task of integrating the North into a unified Korea will be orders of magnitude more costly than East Germany

Most estimates are what, $1-5 trillion?

One factor that may make the South Korean govt eager to 'acquire' North Korea is the potential of cheap labor and a huge boost for Korean construction, etc. Lot of work to do on the infrastructure, etc. The ideological indoctrination of the populace may be a problem for this, perhaps - but AFAIK North Koreans have no problem with their cousins. After a few years of unification, I don't see why one should expect hostility and intransigence from a "liberated" North Korean people.

And does China really want a unified, western-friendly Korea on it's doorstep?

Perhaps guarantees of no American military presence beyond the established boundary?

[Beskar]

Perhaps guarantees of no American military presence beyond the established boundary?

Pakistan. Osama.

[Montmorency]

If we desired to perform drone strikes or black ops in China, we probably could do so now. A divided Korea isn't what's stopping us...

The point being, China has concerns of us violating their national boundary should we get all of Korea to walk on. Not in the small-time sense of the above - it's the strategic position of having combat-ready brigades right along their border. Just in case there's war, of course.

[Papewaio]

China.

China would want concessions to first allow a UN vote to go through. Second for an actual occupation by foreign powers of NK, third if China is involved what is the guarantee that it doesn't incorporate bits and pieces into China based on old maps?

What will we have to give to sweeten the deal? Aircraft carrier technology? Patent deals? Preferential bonds?

Then after North Korea. After China has participated in liberating NK what precedence does this set?

Can China now liberate Yemen, Somalia, Taiwan and the Spratly Islands?

If not why not?

North Korea is a threat to itself. China could be a beacon or a bonfire to the world. So stop thinking in short term Western timeframes going for a quick fix. After all look how long ago the mission in Afghanistan finished. If you want the beacon build it up carefully over time. If you want the bonfire tip some aviation fuel on it.

[drone]

Perhaps guarantees of no American military presence beyond the established boundary?

I was thinking more on the lines of a unified Korea being a serious industrial competitor. After unification, I imagine the US military presence on the peninsula will decrease greatly.

[Lemur]

Can China now liberate Yemen, Somalia, Taiwan and the Spratly Islands?

I don't see how those situations are comparable. NK is remarkable in that it has one ally keeping it afloat. The three nations (and the island chain) you mention are in entirely different circumstances. Also, as messed-up as some countries are, none approach the level of top-down institutionalized hell on earth that NK has managed. I assert that NK is a unique and horrifying evil, reflected in history but unequalled in our times.

So stop thinking in short term Western timeframes going for a quick fix.

Not clear on how I'm doing that. The only people with real leverage on NK are the Chinese. So it's obvious that if we want changes to the nation of racist dwarfs, we need to negotiate with the Middle Kingdom. I hadn't really extended my hypothesis beyond that. In fact, I asked more-or-less, "What should we ask from the Chinese?"

[Tellos Athenaios]

I don't think asking China is going to work. Offering China on the other hand, now that might work. Of course that might not be such an appealing option when they finally decide and pick what they want from you.

For instance you might have to support their territorial claims. Or you might have to offer China free access to the American markets. Or military secrets. Or shut up about human rights abuses in China, deliver wanted refugees fugitives.

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't see how those situations are comparable. NK is remarkable in that it has one ally keeping it afloat. The three nations (and the island chain) you mention are in entirely different circumstances. Also, as messed-up as some countries are, none approach the level of top-down institutionalized hell on earth that NK has managed. I assert that NK is a unique and horrifying evil, reflected in history but unequalled in our times.


Not clear on how I'm doing that. The only people with real leverage on NK are the Chinese. So it's obvious that if we want changes to the nation of racist dwarfs, we need to negotiate with the Middle Kingdom. I hadn't really extended my hypothesis beyond that. In fact, I asked more-or-less, "What should we ask from the Chinese?"

Sure, but you started out with:

So what, if anything, should we be doing about it? Seems to this lemur that the only people with real leverage are the Chinese. Could we be be doing more to convince our friends in Beijing to do ... something? If so, what? If not, why? As the title of the thread states, history will judge us harshly. We know that something every bit as bad as the Holocaust is going on. Like the sign on the synagogue says, with unintentional irony, "Never again is now."

You shouldn't set up a question, open up for discussion, give your own hypothesis, and then assume we will all base our thinking around it solely.

I see plenty of reasons why to intervene without China, several ways too. I am sure they have beaches, and the Marine Corps are getting a little lazy.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that China should be a major player as it unfolds. But I don't agree that China must be.

[rvg]

"What should we ask from the Chinese?"

Nothing. The Chinese would want something in return, and we're currently broke. And no, they can't have Taiwan.

[Montmorency]

I was thinking more on the lines of a unified Korea being a serious industrial competitor. After unification, I imagine the US military presence on the peninsula will decrease greatly.

I can't say I agree.

Firstly, I don't think the US military presence will change significantly for at least some years following reunification. It would take, at the least, a libertarian US regime or a populist Korean government catering to a fed-up population. I doubt either condition would be met for at least a while following. Well, I suppose I can offer one more: a new major foreign entanglement for the US.

Second, I see your point - China will reach an economic phase level with South Korea at some point, and once North Korea has been caught up, that nation's economic potential will be double what it might have been. The problem with this is that it attributes China's actions to a conspiracy with the goal of keeping Korea down for the next generation, which assumes the Chinese leadership really believe that they can prop the North up indefinitely. That can't be, as all well know that within some years there will be an economic and cultural breakpoint where popular unrest causes the regime to topple and pandemonium ensues. China knows that it needs a safer solution - it simply can't see an acceptable one, or seeks greater advantage leading up to it, so it prevaricates.

[Major Robert Dump]

As long as NK stays away from the Marianas I really don't care what happens anymore. Oh wait, Korean women=tall asian chics, nevermind I do care. We must stop this madman

[Populus Romanus]

It is easy for us to call NK a hellhole, but I doubt its citizens see it that way. If all one ever hears is that they live lavishly compared to everyone else, then they will truly believe it. Ignorance is bliss, as the saying goes, and one must imagine the indoctrinated NKorean populace as happy. Why take that away from them by exposing them to the terrible truth?

[Major Robert Dump]

my ex wifes mother told me that while she was touring the DMZ there were NK citizens taunting the southies from beyond the fence, and that they were bragging about how they were doing so well they got rice for all three meals and meat for one meal twice a week, or something of that nature, and all the southies started laughing hysterically and waving candy bars and jerky

[Lemur]

You shouldn't set up a question, open up for discussion, give your own hypothesis, and then assume we will all base our thinking around it solely.

I see plenty of reasons why to intervene without China, several ways too. I am sure they have beaches, and the Marine Corps are getting a little lazy.

A straight-up military solution should be a last resort, for obvious reasons. Absent the threat of force, getting some sort of change relies on having leverage. And the only people with real leverage are ... wait for it ... the Chinese.

So there you have it: Total war, including the annihilation of Seoul and a sharp increase in the price of Samsung parts (unacceptable to any gamer), or leverage through the Chinese. If you have another workable angle, I'm all ears.

It is easy for us to call NK a hellhole, but I doubt its citizens see it that way. [...] Why take that away from them by exposing them to the terrible truth?

Your tongue appears to be surgically implanted in your cheek.

[Populus Romanus]

Dude. They have legit concentration camps.

What is life if not the struggle to survive? We only gain satisfaction from the struggle for success, but we gain no satisfaction from success itself. Noone can ever have enough to fulfill all their desires, so why even bother trying to? Once one gives up all hope, then anything is tolerable, even death, even a concentration camp.

Your tongue appears to be surgically implanted in your cheek.

[Husar]

a sharp increase in the price of Samsung parts (unacceptable to any gamer)

Samsung parts are overrated.

As for NK, I once heard people get the government they deserve/want and they really seem to like theirs.

[Kralizec]

I once read an interview with a North Korean who escaped from one of the labour camps. The most astonishing part of his story was that he was born in the camp. His parents were political dissidents (according to the government, anyway) and he was conceived by them in captivity. And apparently the Great Leader had decreed that "the traitor and his seed shall be punished for three generations" or something like that.

Not that he was the product of a loving relationship. Prisoners who display exemplary behaviour are rewarded with various perks, including a permit to marry and conceive a child - with a spouse designated by the camp guards.

I don't remember how his dad died, but his mother and his brother died because they intended to escape the camp and were betrayed by him, expecting to be rewarded with extra food rations. His mother and brother were publicly executed. He never got any extra food.

Worst. Dictatorship. Ever.

[Hax]

What is life if not the struggle to survive? We only gain satisfaction from the struggle for success, but we gain no satisfaction from success itself. Noone can ever have enough to fulfill all their desires, so why even bother trying to? Once one gives up all hope, then anything is tolerable, even death, even a concentration camp.

I'm sorry, but what the hell is wrong with you? Especially in the light of Krazilec's post, I wonder how can you dismiss the fact that there are people there everyday working themselves half to death in concentration camp every day and have to resort to betraying their families.

I'm sorry, but I think this post is one of the stupidest I've seen here for years, and I'm counting total_relism's thread here.

[Fragony]

and they really seem to like theirs.

Or else -> hi saltmines we are really going to know achother

[Idaho]

I think we're done with exporting democracy and human rights to unwilling buyers.

I'd love to see some examples of this exported democracy. Is this the kind where you carpet bomb places first, carve up the assets among multinationals and try to install your own people? Or is there another kind that I haven't been made aware of?

[Kralizec]

This is the guy I mentioned earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_In_Geun