Egypt

[Montmorency]

In just two sentences, you managed to ignore the zillion different communist, socialist and nationalist political groups or revolutionaries who dominated the post-WW2 years.

It would not be very sensible to include these groups, as these are no longer the post-WW2 years, and there are certainly no longer many "anti-religious", let alone Communist, types.

But yes, I could say "the contemporary character of the people in question".

[gaelic cowboy]

Perhaps, but I was pointing out the historic relationship between Islamism and opposition to the Army.



I think that's a pretty bold statement to make.

Let's not forget, Egypt and Syria were a few decades ago one nation as the United Arab Republic, which is still actually the official name for Egypt today.

Besides being two Arab, Sunni-majority countries in the Middle-East, they have both very recently undergone revolutions where oppressive regimes lasting decades have been cast out. They both have strong secular militaries with a history of oppressing their people. They both have an Islamist-dominated opposition movement. They both have ethnic/religious minorities that back the old secular order for their safety but have since been scapegoated for it amid the turmoil. They are both ex-colonies with strong Ba'athist and socialist traditions.

Surely they have a lot in common?

they way I read it was that you meant both revolutions were similar, ie it was outside support that toppled mubarak and that ouside support is needed in syria. superficially if you take this as secular millitary against islamist opposition yes it the same, but i see it as secular millitary getting annoyed that Morsi cannot keep the non-millitary opposition secularists and copts happy.

He is being removed because there is significant opposition to him, in syria removal of assad would mean removal of the millitary

basically one was/is a country that matters ie eygpt the other is a basket case that's esentially a client of Iran

in eygpt it was the army that removed mubarak, in syria the army is assad.

the christian community is ten percent of the population in both countries but in eygpt they have a pope

there is a major centre of islamic learning in eygpt and apparently there backing the coup

[Rhyfelwyr]

they way I read it was that you meant both revolutions were similar, ie it was outside support that toppled mubarak and that ouside support is needed in syria. superficially if you take this as secular millitary against islamist opposition yes it the same, but i see it as secular millitary getting annoyed that Morsi cannot keep the non-millitary opposition secularists and copts happy.

He is being removed because there is significant opposition to him, in syria removal of assad would mean removal of the millitary

basically one was/is a country that matters ie eygpt the other is a basket case that's esentially a client of Iran

in eygpt it was the army that removed mubarak, in syria the army is assad.

the christian community is ten percent of the population in both countries but in eygpt they have a pope

there is a major centre of islamic learning in eygpt and apparently there backing the coup

OK, well I only mentioned outside support in passing, and indeed I specifically said I did not advocate it.

My point was there are some similarities, of course you are right that they have their differences as well.

Those are interesting points you raise about the Islamic centre supporting the coup and the fact that unlike in Syria, Egypt's army removed the dictator - these facts do challenge the narrative I have presented.

With that in mind I'll sit back and watch how things develop, hopefully with the things you have mentioned it won't go the way of Syria.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wonder what Erdogan makes of all this.

And Thein Sein...

YOu would know better than me it seems.

[Fragony]

Tell us all-knowing, all-wise, Frag the Omniscient, tell us!

Tada

[Fragony]

Wow, what a shocker - Fragony has completely misunderstood why those intellectuals called it the arab spring.

Nah, I perfectly understand that they are total idiots who will never understand that they just don't get it. Now that they were once again wrong, wrong as usual, absolute silence.

[Sarmatian]

I always support talking power from anything that has religious adjectives in the name. I'll take a secular dictator over a fundamentalist one any day.

So, I'm rooting for the army. Additionally, this may give Erdogan pause, maybe he'll be wary of his generals getting the same idea.

[The Stranger]

Nah, I perfectly understand that they are total idiots who will never understand that they just don't get it. Now that they were once again wrong, wrong as usual, absolute silence.

i wonder who you mean... are there any of them in this thread?

[The Stranger]

I always support talking power from anything that has religious adjectives in the name. I'll take a secular dictator over a fundamentalist one any day.

So, I'm rooting for the army. Additionally, this may give Erdogan pause, maybe he'll be wary of his generals getting the same idea.

What does fundamentalism even mean in this statement? Why is a ideology with a god worse than one without? Because thats about the only principal difference.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Nah, I perfectly understand that they are total idiots who will never understand that they just don't get it. Now that they were once again wrong, wrong as usual, absolute silence.

Oh wise Fragony-san, you enrage me so much on so many matters, but I am always impressed by your ability to take a terrible situation and so quickly cut it down to a consistent philosophy of "That's islam for you."

[Sarmatian]

What does fundamentalism even mean in this statement? Why is a ideology with a god worse than one without? Because thats about the only principal difference.

It's easier to deal with secular dictators as they tend to be practical. Religious fanatics tend to behave... well, like religious fanatics.

[Fragony]

Oh wise Fragony-san, you enrage me so much on so many matters, but I am always impressed by your ability to take a terrible situation and so quickly cut it down to a consistent philosophy of "That's islam for you."

Islamism isn't islam, A difference I don't mind making. You just can't read very well if you missed me making it

[The Stranger]

It's easier to deal with secular dictators as they tend to be practical. Religious fanatics tend to behave... well, like religious fanatics.

i doubt that, but your point is understandable.

even though I dont see why a secular dictator ala Hitler, Mao, Stalin or whatever ideology inspired dictator would be preferable to one who is inspired by a religious ideology. perhaps if by secular you mean one who is only inspired by greed, i can see concede the point.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Islamism isn't islam, A difference I don't mind making. You just can't read very well if you missed me making it

I went to a US public school. I can't read what I am typing right now. I am pretty sure I incorrectly comprehend everyone on here. But I will keep what you said in mind for the future.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Arrest warrants for 300 Muslim Brotherhood members issued by Army

Again, this seems like a worrying development.

[Fisherking]

Yes, well, so is this: http://www.thetower.org/german-intel...aining-ground/

However, so far as I know, no harm has come to any of them. The only reported violence has come from the MB in shooting anti-Morsi protesters.

It does not look as though it will turn in to the reign of terror just yet.

[HoreTore]

Nah, I perfectly understand that they are total idiots who will never understand that they just don't get it. Now that they were once again wrong, wrong as usual, absolute silence.

No, as the term was coined because it was the first (serious attempt to) overthrow of a particular batch of dictators who had ruled nearly unopposed for half a century. That is the significance of the Arab spring, it changed the rules. Now an Arab dictator can be overthrown. Just like the French revolution isn't important because it brought about "Freedom for EveryoneTM"(it most certainly didn't), but because it changed the rules by showing that a population can overthrow and chop the heads off of Kings.

It is truly unsurprising that such insights are lost on you.

[Fragony]

No, as the term was coined because it was the first (serious attempt to) overthrow of a particular batch of dictators who had ruled nearly unopposed for half a century. That is the significance of the Arab spring, it changed the rules. Now an Arab dictator can be overthrown. Just like the French revolution isn't important because it brought about "Freedom for EveryoneTM"(it most certainly didn't), but because it changed the rules by showing that a population can overthrow and chop the heads off of Kings.

It is truly unsurprising that such insights are lost on you.

I get what it meant but it's kinda off in reality no?

[HoreTore]

I get what it meant but it's kinda off in reality no?

What?

Have not a bunch of dictators been overthrown, in the process of being overthrown or had to fight back a major attempt to overthrow him, by an opposition made up of mostly the common man(as opposed to being overthrown by rival power structures within the regime or outside agents, as has been the norm)?

Will not future dictators be aware of this, and take it into consideration, like the European monarchs did after the revolution?

The Arab spring changed the playing field in the Middle East. It was a momentous event for the region. The intellectuals were spot on, as they always are. The right-wingers are still as clueless as always.

[HopAlongBunny]

I am impressed that the "Arab Spring" has at least (so far) avoided the following "Reign of Terror".
It upsets my understanding of the dynamics of revolution...but I can live with that

[Fisherking]

I am impressed that the "Arab Spring" has at least (so far) avoided the following "Reign of Terror".
It upsets my understanding of the dynamics of revolution...but I can live with that

There have been some assignations and murders in Tunisia. Libya is still unsettled but Egypt was the mildest.

Even the American Revolution had retribution to a stronger degree. Many had to flee their homes and had property confiscated. All Indians were lumped together as enemies even though there were tribes fighting along with the Americans. In more recent months the government has gone after political opponents and counter demonstrators have killed protesters but overall there has been comparatively little blood shed.

[lars573]

I am impressed that the "Arab Spring" has at least (so far) avoided the following "Reign of Terror".
It upsets my understanding of the dynamics of revolution...but I can live with that

You should take a closer look at the time line of the French revolution. The Terror didn't start for 4 years after the revolution started. Give it 2 years.

[Major Robert Dump]

This is only happening because they want july 4th as a special holiday because everyone copies America and look up to usa, other countries take our language and they try to take paris Hilton and now they take july 4, too

[HoreTore]

This is only happening because they want july 4th as a special holiday because everyone copies America and look up to usa, other countries take our language and they try to take paris Hilton and now they take july 4, too

You can keep Paris Hilton, but I demand Rihanna.

[Fragony]

What?

Have not a bunch of dictators been overthrown, in the process of being overthrown or had to fight back a major attempt to overthrow him, by an opposition made up of mostly the common man(as opposed to being overthrown by rival power structures within the regime or outside agents, as has been the norm)?

Will not future dictators be aware of this, and take it into consideration, like the European monarchs did after the revolution?

The Arab spring changed the playing field in the Middle East. It was a momentous event for the region. The intellectuals were spot on, as they always are. The right-wingers are still as clueless as always.

Things only turned for the worse, army taking over in Egypt is good news for the Egyptians, it's really the only positive thing worth mentioning about this 'arab spring', at least in Egypt it won't be an islamist winter. I hope the people in Syria will be just as lucky but I doubt it. Libya is a nightmare as well. Things were much better before all this happened.

[HoreTore]

Things only turned for the worse

....And that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the term "Arab Spring".

The French revolution "only made things worse" as well. Its impact, on the other hand, allowed democracy in Europe.

[Fragony]

....And that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the term "Arab Spring".

The French revolution "only made things worse" as well. Its impact, on the other hand, allowed democracy in Europe.

Facepalm du jour, democracy isn't exactly what they have in mind, you must be reading quality newspapers. Islamists are taking over the region and ill-informed whiteboys are cheering for them.

[HoreTore]

Facepalm du jour, democracy isn't exactly what they have in mind, you must be reading quality newspapers. Islamists are taking over the region and ill-informed whiteboys are cheering for them.

And Napoleon made himself Emperor and started conquering.

Your point?

The Arab spring has shown that the population of Arab countries are capable of overthrowing its rulers. That's the significance of the Arab spring. A factor like that may lead to more democratic societies, but it doesn't have to. The revolutions in Europe gave us everything from democracies to totalitarian states, noone is claiming that the same isn't true for the middle east.

Except the strawmen made by right-wingers, of course.

[Fragony]

Point is simple, there is no such thing as an arab-spring, it's business as usual. The arab-spring exists only the minds of leftist intellectulocos who know, for a fact, that they are screaming for democracy. The reality however is genocide of minorities, why do you think these backed Khadaffi and still back Assad. Let's not even begin about central Africa. Wrong as usual.

[Papewaio]

It is a long road to a functioning democracy.

Just look at UK from Cromwell to the 20th Century or France or Netherlands.

Most yo yo about depending on access to basic needs such as shelter, warmth and food.
The only real link to democracy gaining strength is the free flow of information.

So expect more blood on the road to freedom. It's a costly investment.