When did American society become so feminized?

[Fisherking]

Using tools on the job and carrying the same around in public - there's a difference, no? Do you see it?

Oh? Does that mean that people stop carrying Lethermans and such now? Just about anyone who works with their hands is usually not without one, on the job or at home.

[Montmorency]

on the job or at home.

Maybe I'm not being clear:

*Most people in contemporary urban societies do not need to make use of such tools
*Those that do compartmentalize their use to work situations
*Hobbyists who use such tools confine their use to that specific context
*Consumers out about the town simply do not ever carry such tools and have no expectation of others carrying them in their environment
*Front-end/customer service workers have as their primary - and usually only - tool the computer

What;s so hard to get about this?

[Fisherking]

Maybe I'm not being clear:

*Most people in contemporary urban societies do not need to make use of such tools
*Those that do compartmentalize their use to work situations
*Hobbyists who use such tools confine their use to that specific context
*Consumers out about the town simply do not ever carry such tools and have no expectation of others carrying them in their environment
*Front-end/customer service workers have as their primary - and usually only - tool the computer

What;s so hard to get about this?

Urban society perhaps but most people don’t work white collar urban jobs. They live in suburbs and get their hands dirty. Even nerdy engineers carry such tools in case they need to fix something.

Go out and see some fly-over country.

[Montmorency]

Even nerdy engineers carry such tools in case they need to fix something.

*Most people in contemporary urban societies do not need to make use of such tools
*Those that do compartmentalize their use to work situations

They live in suburbs and get their hands dirty.

Listen, seeing a plumber walking around with their tool-kit is taken by the observer as part of the plumber's job. It's analogous to a man in a business suit carrying a briefcase.

Now, if the plumber were then asked if they were currently heading to a job/assignment, and they responded, "No", that would be taken as bizarre.

Just as bizarre as a businessman-by-day going out for (non-business related) dinner with briefcase in hand.

[Fisherking]

I think you are a little hide-bound in your viewpoint. Obviously you live in a large urban center, but most people do not.

What you may think of as normal is actually a narrow view. Most men do ware such out to dinner, mostly because their wife would object, but they would come to the dinner table at home with such, and likely ware it shopping or around town.

Speaking of bizarre, why don’t you go to a Wallmart and report back on what you have seen. ;)

[Montmorency]

Half the US lives in cities of more than 1 million inhabitants...

[Myth]

In Bulgaria the law is the most retarded thing. We can't carry blades longer than 20 cm., you need a license to carry even a bb gun, you can't carry semi auto or full auto.. Oh but it gets better.

Say a guy picks a fight with you. Say he is an 80 kg. boxer. You pull a knife on him and stick him? You are at fault, you pay him damage and may eve get locekd up. You are required by law to answer his fists with your fists, never mind that he will punch your teeth in and you will have to spend 5000 euro to fix them.

Say some junkie pulls a knife on you in the street and wants you wallet. You can't shoot him. No, not even in the leg or arm. You'd be at fault and you'd get your license revoked and will have to pay him. Also you'll do several years jail time.

Say you're a watchman in a watermelon patch and a bunch of gypsies come with 4-5 horse drawn carts. They jump off, wielding axes and 30 cm. knives, threatening you. You shoot ONE in the leg with a legally owned rifle. You are guarding someone's private property, at night. Guess what happens - that's right. You pay the thief you shot a hefty reparation, and you go to jail.

Self defense and private property laws are a joke here. It's even funnier that the people whom you'd want to have a gun AGAINST are either the roma minority who are protected by the reverse-discrimination in the government and by a bunch of NPOs and Soros-es, or they are thugs and mobsters who own automatic weapons illegally and the police don't do anything against them. Sucks to be a regular citizen here.

[Fragony]

Not being allowed to carry a knive of 20 cm doesn't sound that odd to me really, what purpose could it have other than hurting someone much more than you should want to

[Fisherking]

Half the US lives in cities of more than 1 million inhabitants...

Sure, but it does not make what you describe as typical. Not all cities over a million are the same.

What is typical for the North East is not typical for the rest of the county. Many of those urban centers reach a million because they incorporate large suburban areas. San Antonio is not Boston. The norms are much different. Also as you say half live there and half do not. Again, different values and norms.

Some of what Vuk is experiencing is a culture clash. He grew up in a rural setting on a farm. The country is growing more urban, and much more risk adverse, to the point of idiocy actually.

I suggest he move west, not to the coast, but further west at any rate.

[Moros]

I almost always have a pocket knife with me. Never used it on people even when attacked. But it is useful for a whole lot of things. Also it's more than knives, there's can openers on it, a screwdriver, pincet,... All which have been useful outside my home.

[Husar]

About your post early though about how men cause the violence in society and how there would be none if women ruled: here is a good example that humans are cruel and violent, regardless of sex.

No, it's just a good point about the masculine women you're asking for. As you said yourself, just because they were women there is no reason to assume they were actually feminine and not masculine according to the definition of these words.

The high school girl rivalries are only happening because the girls are raised with the same masculine values as the boys, they learn from a young age that they have to take what they can get and this leads to the struggles they have among eachother. Truly feminine girls would share the values of cooperation, sharing and the diplomatic solving of conflicts. A masculine culture that promotes solving conflicts through power gains simply corrupts the nature of these girls.

[Montmorency]

Also as you say half live there and half do not.

But 80% overall live in urban areas. Which is the point - in urban areas, carrying around tools common in rural areas is, well, uncommon.

The denser the city, the more surprising it seems.

[Vuk]

But 80% overall live in urban areas. Which is the point - in urban areas, carrying around tools common in rural areas is, well, uncommon.

The denser the city, the more surprising it seems.

Seeing a woman in a Hijab is surprising where I come from. Does that mean we should infringe on her freedom to wear one when she goes shopping?

In Bulgaria the law is the most retarded thing. We can't carry blades longer than 20 cm., you need a license to carry even a bb gun, you can't carry semi auto or full auto.. Oh but it gets better.

Say a guy picks a fight with you. Say he is an 80 kg. boxer. You pull a knife on him and stick him? You are at fault, you pay him damage and may eve get locekd up. You are required by law to answer his fists with your fists, never mind that he will punch your teeth in and you will have to spend 5000 euro to fix them.

Say some junkie pulls a knife on you in the street and wants you wallet. You can't shoot him. No, not even in the leg or arm. You'd be at fault and you'd get your license revoked and will have to pay him. Also you'll do several years jail time.

Say you're a watchman in a watermelon patch and a bunch of gypsies come with 4-5 horse drawn carts. They jump off, wielding axes and 30 cm. knives, threatening you. You shoot ONE in the leg with a legally owned rifle. You are guarding someone's private property, at night. Guess what happens - that's right. You pay the thief you shot a hefty reparation, and you go to jail.

Self defense and private property laws are a joke here. It's even funnier that the people whom you'd want to have a gun AGAINST are either the roma minority who are protected by the reverse-discrimination in the government and by a bunch of NPOs and Soros-es, or they are thugs and mobsters who own automatic weapons illegally and the police don't do anything against them. Sucks to be a regular citizen here.

Now you know what conservatives are afraid America will turn into. That really sucks.

Not being allowed to carry a knive of 20 cm doesn't sound that odd to me really, what purpose could it have other than hurting someone much more than you should want to

First of all, you should not have a knife to hurt someone. If you have a knife to defend yourself, then its purpose is to stop someone, and that is binary. Either it is big enough or it isn't. There is no such thing as a knife being able to stop someone too much!
I just want to say here and now that I it is my decided opinion that a knife is NOT a suitable self-defense weapon in most modern countries (including the US), but if you are using it for one then it has two major functions: 1) intimidation and 2) incapacitation.
As far as intimidation goes, the bigger the better. If a larger knife intimidates an opponent to the point where they do not attack you, then your larger knife just stopped someone from getting hurt.
As far as incapacitation goes, giving someone a little cut is not going to stop them. You incapacitate them by '*#&$@ing them up'. If you do not '*#&$@ them up', then your knife is not going to help you. You either make them lose so much blood they go into shock or die, or you cut something they need to physically function in their attack. Anything short of that and your knife is not going to help you incapacitate them. If the point of the knife is self-defense, than the larger the better, because almost incapacitating someone does you no good.

That said, a knife, and esp a folding pocket knife is probably the worst possible choice for self-defense.
First of all, when you are being attacked, what are you gonna do? Dig through your pocket, clumsily pull it out and try to unfold it while the other bloke politely stands to the side and lets you? With a fixed blade, an automatic in a holster or holding pocket, or with a gun you can at least get your crap out fast, but not with a folding pocket knife.
Second of all, carrying any weapon is largely ineffective unless you practice retrieving it as fast as possible many, many, many times. Do you practice with your pocket knife? If you did you would probably realize how clumsy and ill-suited it is for self-defense.
The second reasons knives are horrible self-defense weapons is because you have to actually really know what you are doing with it or you will most likely only get yourself killed against an armed opponent.
Also, a gun has major intimidation, a knife does not.
Add on to that that you pulling the knife means that they can argue that you made a non-lethal situation lethal. Can you prove that pulled his weapon first? It won't look good in court even if you live when you pull a knife out stab some dude in the guts. In people's minds shooting is much more clean cut, but knives are messy and dirty and the bad guys carry them. You using one automatically makes people think of you as a bad guy.

Long story short, don't use a knife for self-defense. If you do, then don't use a folding knife. If you do use a folding knife though, keep it somewhere other than your pockets. If you do keep it in your pocket, keep it alone in a retaining pocket mean just for it where you can reach in easily to access it.
Better to just not use knives in self-defense.

No, it's just a good point about the masculine women you're asking for. As you said yourself, just because they were women there is no reason to assume they were actually feminine and not masculine according to the definition of these words.

The high school girl rivalries are only happening because the girls are raised with the same masculine values as the boys, they learn from a young age that they have to take what they can get and this leads to the struggles they have among eachother. Truly feminine girls would share the values of cooperation, sharing and the diplomatic solving of conflicts. A masculine culture that promotes solving conflicts through power gains simply corrupts the nature of these girls.

Ok, if you say so mate. Masculine = greedy and evil and Feminine = Angelic and Sweet.
There is no point in having this conversation any longer.

[rvg]

Seeing a woman in a Hijab is surprising where I come from. Does that mean we should infringe on her freedom to wear one when she goes shopping?

She can't stab you with a hijab though.

[Vuk]

She can't stab you with a hijab though.

No, but she can much more easily conceal a weapon or bomb under it, and she may be using it to cover her face because she intends to commit a crime. It still doesn't mean I should keep her out of my supermarket.

[rvg]

No, but she can much more easily conceal a weapon or bomb under it, and she may be using it to cover her face because she intends to commit a crime. It still doesn't mean I should keep her out of my supermarket.

If you really want to, you should be able to keep her out of your supermarket. It's your supermarket.

[BroskiDerpman]

Wouldn't it be under this franchise or something where you got to adhere to rules? (i.e Don't trash talk customers or discriminate)


Sources: Reading the documents my parents got when they use to own a Quiznos.

[Fisherking]

But 80% overall live in urban areas. Which is the point - in urban areas, carrying around tools common in rural areas is, well, uncommon.

The denser the city, the more surprising it seems.

No it is not. Perhaps in an office or classroom, or where ever you have not noticed them.

Men carry them in their pockets and women carry them in their hand bags. Perhaps it is only a credit card sized object with a small blade, tweezers, etc. A woman may have a nail file and perhaps clippers. Still tools. You may carry a pin, a tool for writing. People carry the tools they think they may need. Urban or rural that makes no difference.

[Vuk]

If you really want to, you should be able to keep her out of your supermarket. It's your supermarket.

You are right, I should have the right to, and the clinic should have the right to tell me I cannot carry a pocket knife, but that doesn't make it any less stupid. There are lots of stupid things that can be done but should not be done.

No it is not. Perhaps in an office or classroom, or where ever you have not noticed them.

Men carry them in their pockets and women carry them in their hand bags. Perhaps it is only a credit card sized object with a small blade, tweezers, etc. A woman may have a nail file and perhaps clippers. Still tools. You may carry a pin, a tool for writing. People carry the tools they think they may need. Urban or rural that makes no difference.

Good point, how would anyone really know who is carrying a pocket knife when they are in their pocket or purse?

[Husar]

Ok, if you say so mate. Masculine = greedy and evil and Feminine = Angelic and Sweet.
There is no point in having this conversation any longer.

Indeed, your prejudices are all wrong and that's not what I said, it's just a reductio ad absurdum of my argument.

[Vuk]

Indeed, your prejudices are all wrong and that's not what I said, it's just a reductio ad absurdum of my argument.

If you say so. It doesn't matter anyway as the definition of feminine is not what this topic is about. It is about why America is turning into Land of Sheep and Home of the Fools. It is about why people can be so stupid and feel so threatened about such stupid things.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Sure you still do. Opening plastic packages, cutting tape, cutting boxes, cutting loose threads off your clothing, prying stuff (sure, it is not good for your knife, but some times you have no alternative), etc, etc. You would not believe the amount of times I have needed a knife for things I never could have predicted I would use a pocket knife for. It is like a flash-light (something I always keep on my belt except when I am going to job interviews), one of those essential things that even if you use rarely you need there for those important times when nothing else will suffice.

None of which I need to do outside the house.

I literally NEVER need a knife off the farm/moors. When I do, I carry two knives known as Mr Choppy and Mr Stabby. My Stabby is for slitting throats and Mr Choppy is for cutting hooves off.

[Montmorency]

Seeing a woman in a Hijab is surprising where I come from. Does that mean we should infringe on her freedom to wear one when she goes shopping?

Well, while I have no problem with pocket knives - and we are speaking of tools more generally -

No it is not. Perhaps in an office or classroom, or where ever you have not noticed them.

Men carry them in their pockets and women carry them in their hand bags. Perhaps it is only a credit card sized object with a small blade, tweezers, etc. A woman may have a nail file and perhaps clippers. Still tools. You may carry a pin, a tool for writing. People carry the tools they think they may need. Urban or rural that makes no difference.

But not that generally. Come on now.

The crux: there is no way you can convince me people in dense cities - not urban sprawl interspersed with suburbs and farmland - are not used to individuals just carrying around tools for construction, mechanics, agriculture, or whatever. If they see such a thing, they'll assume the carrier is a blue-collar worker on the job. They would be very surprised to see someone carrying such things just because they might come in handy at some point in the day.

Because that doesn't make any sense. In the city, such tools are deployed either on jobs/job sites, or very rare DIY situations (in which case there's no need for them to leave the home).

How is this at all controversial?

Anyway, as I was saying, a hijab is just a headscarf and does not cover the face. As for bombs, where the heck would that fit between the head and the fabric? That's like something out of a cartoon.

If you really want to, you should be able to keep her out of your supermarket. It's your supermarket.

I'm sympathetic to this perspective, but in the end there's the concern that permitting - or, returning to - service discrimination based on ethnic (broadly speaking) categories might result in an unwanted level of social friction.

[Husar]

If you say so. It doesn't matter anyway as the definition of feminine is not what this topic is about.

Yes, tht only mattered when you didn't like the definition of someone else.

It is about why America is turning into Land of Sheep and Home of the Fools. It is about why people can be so stupid and feel so threatened about such stupid things.

Because it lowers violence and the crime rate. I remember people in gun threads saying that while the US did not implement sweeping gun control,the crime rate has steadily gone down in recent years. Obviously that supports my argument that more femininity lowers crime rates and violence.
You're absolutely barking up the wrong tree buddy, nothing about this is stupid, masculinity is not the solution, it is the problem.

[Montmorency]

Obviously that supports my argument that more femininity lowers crime rates and violence.

The problem with monocausal explanations is that they not only ignore other factors, but discount the potential that their own causality might just be illusory.

This kind of thought-process is of the same sort as, 'My mother has suddenly died, so the woman who moved into the village a month ago must be a murderous witch!'

[Husar]

The problem with monocausal explanations is that they not only ignore other factors, but discount the potential that their own causality might just be illusory.

This kind of thought-process is of the same sort as, 'My mother has suddenly died, so the woman who moved into the village a month ago must be a murderous witch!'

That doesn't prove anything, and it certainly doesn't prove that femininity makes America worse.

[Vuk]

None of which I need to do outside the house.

I literally NEVER need a knife off the farm/moors. When I do, I carry two knives known as Mr Choppy and Mr Stabby. My Stabby is for slitting throats and Mr Choppy is for cutting hooves off.

Good for you. I find they come in handy quite often when away from my house.

Well, while I have no problem with pocket knives - and we are speaking of tools more generally -



But not that generally. Come on now.

The crux: there is no way you can convince me people in dense cities - not urban sprawl interspersed with suburbs and farmland - are not used to individuals just carrying around tools for construction, mechanics, agriculture, or whatever. If they see such a thing, they'll assume the carrier is a blue-collar worker on the job. They would be very surprised to see someone carrying such things just because they might come in handy at some point in the day.

Because that doesn't make any sense. In the city, such tools are deployed either on jobs/job sites, or very rare DIY situations (in which case there's no need for them to leave the home).

How is this at all controversial?

Anyway, as I was saying, a hijab is just a headscarf and does not cover the face. As for bombs, where the heck would that fit between the head and the fabric? That's like something out of a cartoon.



I'm sympathetic to this perspective, but in the end there's the concern that permitting - or, returning to - service discrimination based on ethnic (broadly speaking) categories might result in an unwanted level of social friction.

First of all, I meant burqa, not hijab. I know the difference, but I typed the wrong word.
Second of all, does it really matter if people are unused to seeing it? Does that make it right for them to say that someone cannot? Esp when a pocket knife poses significantly less danger than lots of things they allow?

They would be very surprised to see someone carrying such things just because they might come in handy at some point in the day.

Because that doesn't make any sense.

And yes, it does make sense. It is the same reason I carry a flashlight. Not because I go out and say "Hey, I am gonna drop something in a dark hole and need a flashlight to see it today!", or "I think tonight is a nice night to break down!", but because it is one of three easy to carry tools that come in handy in random situations fairly often, and are not a pain to carry around. A leatherman multi-tool, a flashlight, and a folding pocket knife are three things I carry on my belt and in my pocket everywhere (including when I go out to eat).
It is for the same reason I keep a short-handled, flat shovel, a fire extinguisher, a first-aid kit, a sand-log, and a hatchet in my car at all times: just because they may come in handy at some point in the day, and I would rather have them at that time than not. Why doesn't that make any sense? Or would you rather be the guy who pays out his rump for a service he could easily have done himself?

Indeed, your prejudices are all wrong and that's not what I said, it's just a reductio ad absurdum of my argument.

masculinity is not the solution, it is the problem.

Really? lol

[Montmorency]

That doesn't prove anything

Yep.

And yes, it does make sense. It is the same reason I carry a flashlight. Not because I go out and say "Hey, I am gonna drop something in a dark hole and need a flashlight to see it today!", or "I think tonight is a nice night to break down!", but because it is one of three easy to carry tools that come in handy in random situations fairly often, and are not a pain to carry around. A leatherman multi-tool, a flashlight, and a folding pocket knife are three things I carry on my belt and in my pocket everywhere (including when I go out to eat).
It is for the same reason I keep a short-handled, flat shovel, a fire extinguisher, a first-aid kit, a sand-log, and a hatchet in my car at all times: just because they may come in handy at some point in the day, and I would rather have them at that time than not. Why doesn't that make any sense? Or would you rather be the guy who pays out his rump for a service he could easily have done himself?

Flashlight: Depends on the size. If it's pen-sized, sure whatever. Maybe you forget your phone at home and need to find something that rolled under a desk.

Multi-tool: Why do you need a pocket knife if you're carrying one of these?

Car: Keep whatever you need in there, you spend a lot of time in the sticks anyway. The point is that there's no need to carry this stuff on your person at all times. Take me as a representative of the big city; that's how it is.

First of all, I meant burqa, not hijab. I know the difference, but I typed the wrong word.

Who even wears a burqa

[Vuk]

Why have a folding knife if I have a multi-tool? Because a folding knife is a lot easier and quicker to access, so I don't like to use the one on the multi-tool unless I have to. The multi-tool itself is great for all kind of other stuff though. (I got the Leatherman Wave for Christmas two years ago and fell in love with it)

[Strike For The South]

If you are not trained with a knife and try to defend yourself with it, you will hurt yourself