Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Sarmatian]

Am I getting too poetic?

Nah, just too nationalistic to be taken seriously anymore.

Armed men without insignias took control of two airports in Crimea and Yanukovich emerges in Russia. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1Q1E820140228

Officials in Kiev maintain they are directed from Moscow. Russia says it will defend interests of its citizens, but will not intervene by force. Maidan government now needs to approach this calmly and rationally to come out of this with unchanged borders. Hopefully, they won't allow far right, pro fascist groups involved in protest anywhere near Crimea situation.

[Montmorency]

1. "Rational, calm" government takes everyone's interests into account. Return to Yannie-era system.
2. Nationalist government asserts Ukrainian identity under the aegis of Europe. Relations with Russia destroyed, economy crippled.

I think Russia may have the upper hand here.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Nah, just too nationalistic to be taken seriously anymore.

Armed men without insignias took control of two airports in Crimea and Yanukovich emerges in Russia. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1Q1E820140228

Officials in Kiev maintain they are directed from Moscow. Russia says it will defend interests of its citizens, but will not intervene by force. Maidan government now needs to approach this calmly and rationally to come out of this with unchanged borders. Hopefully, they won't allow far right, pro fascist groups involved in protest anywhere near Crimea situation.

You do realize that nationalism is alive and well, even in Serbia I suppose. Just because you believe his perspective distorted does NOT make his perspective less relevant to this discussion. It is exactly these sentiments that are central to the dispute.

[Gilrandir]

Nah, just too nationalistic to be taken seriously anymore.

This is the first time anyone called me a nationalist. I have russian blood in me. But as they say here in Ukraine "If you speak to Russians long enough you will eventually end up a Ukrainian nationalist". I have relatives in Russia and many acquaintances there. Believe me or not, any conversation that has run its course as a meeting-of-old-buddies(relatives) talk comes to the question: "Well, how soon do you think we are going to become one country again?" Do Serbs ask the same questions to Bosnians or Croatians?
But again, I don't claim to be impartial in my views. You may (and must) take all I say cum grano salis.

[Sarmatian]

You do realize that nationalism is alive and well, even in Serbia I suppose. Just because you believe his perspective distorted does NOT make his perspective less relevant to this discussion. It is exactly these sentiments that are central to the dispute.

... and if a Crimean Russian makes a post likening government in Kiev to orcs, uruk-hais and Saruman and presenting Crimean stalwart defenders as elves and humans led by such luminaries like Gandalf and Aragorn, in which way does that improve this discussion?

This is the first time anyone called me a nationalist. I have russian blood in me. But as they say here in Ukraine "If you speak to Russians long enough you will eventually end up a Ukrainian nationalist". I have relatives in Russia and many acquaintances there. Believe me or not, any conversation that has run its course as a meeting-of-old-buddies(relatives) talk comes to the question: "Well, how soon do you think we are going to become one country again?" Do Serbs ask the same questions to Bosnians or Croatians?
But again, I don't claim to be impartial in my views. You may (and must) take all I say cum grano salis.

You're very well entitled to your own views and opinions, but I don't have to agree with them or take them seriously.
In general, I won't take seriously anything that tries to equate a complex political situation with a fantasy novel about struggle of good and evil.

[Beskar]

I have relatives in Russia and many acquaintances there. Believe me or not, any conversation that has run its course as a meeting-of-old-buddies(relatives) talk comes to the question: "Well, how soon do you think we are going to become one country again?" Do Serbs ask the same questions to Bosnians or Croatians?

When the Serbs are asking, they are rolling tanks up and down the border, which then scuttle away quickly when a Nato jet flies by.

[Sarmatian]

When the Serbs are asking, they are rolling tanks up and down the border, which then scuttle away quickly when a Nato jet flies by.

This is demonizing an entire nation. As per Backroom FAQ and it's illustrative example which I quote

Acceptable: "I can't stand the Lilliputian government's excessive use of hemp rope against innocents"
Unacceptable: " Lilliputians are small-minded pygmies"

, I demand swift and appropriate punishment.

Now report yourself to yourself.

What I consider appropriate punishment in this case is that you have to vote for UKIP in the next elections.

[HoreTore]

What I consider appropriate punishment in this case is that you have to vote for UKIP in the next elections.

Oh the humanity!

Be reasonable in your punishments, Sarmatian. His offence does not require such a horrendous response; scale it down to a mere capital punishment instead.

[Beskar]

What I consider appropriate punishment in this case is that you have to vote for UKIP in the next elections.

In short, approve this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Gilrandir]

... and if a Crimean Russian makes a post likening government in Kiev to orcs, uruk-hais and Saruman and presenting Crimean stalwart defenders as elves and humans led by such luminaries like Gandalf and Aragorn, in which way does that improve this discussion?

I did not liken anyone to anyone. I tried to explain the effect Russian TV tries to create in the unwary minds of its watchers. Having access to both Ukrainian and Russian TV I can hear both sides of the story while Russian public can not.

In general, I won't take seriously anything that tries to equate a complex political situation with a fantasy novel about struggle of good and evil.

I didn't equate the situation in Ukraine to the novel. I exemplified the way many (but by no means all) Crimeans perceive the current situation and the influence Russian TV has over there.

[Sarmatian]

I did not liken anyone to anyone. I tried to explain the effect Russian TV tries to create in the unwary minds of its watchers. Having access to both Ukrainian and Russian TV I can hear both sides of the story while Russian public can not.

And you think Russians are brainwashed into watching only one TV station which only serves them pre-approved news? They don't have access to other news and other channels? They don't get other Ukrainian or Russian channels in Crimea? International channels? Cable or satellite TV? Internet? Google News doesn't work in Crimea or in Russia?

[Fisherking]

And you think Russians are brainwashed into watching only one TV station which only serves them pre-approved news? They don't have access to other news and other channels? They don't get other Ukrainian or Russian channels in Crimea? International channels? Cable or satellite TV? Internet? Google News doesn't work in Crimea or in Russia?

Group physiology and dominant public opinions. People want to fit in with their neighbors.

It is rather like political opinions here. Some will only look at the left, some only at the right. Few look at both and fewer still try to do it objectively. People naturally like to here what they like to believe.

[Kadagar_AV]

Voice/IP Connection has been cut between Crimea and Ukraine...

Russian tanks and troops reported in the area.

Airport definitely and parliament building maybe taken over (unclear sources?).




It sure starts to LOOK like an invasion...

[Fragony]

Uncomfirmed, http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...rating-ukraine

[Seamus Fermanagh]

None of the major news services are confirming that the gunmen are Russian soldiers. They do, however, appear to have highly uniform equipment, unlike the folks who stormed into the regional parliament building.

[Gilrandir]

And you think Russians are brainwashed into watching only one TV station which only serves them pre-approved news? They don't have access to other news and other channels? They don't get other Ukrainian or Russian channels in Crimea? International channels? Cable or satellite TV? Internet? Google News doesn't work in Crimea or in Russia?

Majority of people in Russia (as well as in Ukraine) are too poor to afford satellite TV. Broadcast cable channels are chosen and controlled by the authorities. If any channel displeases them they may switch it off without any explanation. Cable TV operators are prone to change the broadcasing roster the way they like again without any explanation or apologies. At least this is the way in Ukraine and I don't think it is any better with the more controlled media space in Russia.
As for Internet, Ukrainian and Russsian rural communities are sparsely provided with it. Even if they are internet users are predominantly young people but Russsia (as well as Ukraine) is an ageing nation, especially in the countryside which able-bodied young people escape in droves. There are entire villages populated by pensioners with no internet aspiration.
The life of most people is hard work from early morning till late in the evening. So if they get any news it is from the traditional 9 p.m. news program. And you understand how carefully prepared it is. And generally speaking, many people in Russia like their president and trust their TV.
As for access to Ukrainian TV in the Crimea, I have told you the sentiment of people over there.They watch and trust Russian TV more.

[Sarmatian]

Majority of people in Russia (as well as in Ukraine) are too poor to afford satellite TV. Broadcast cable channels are chosen and controlled by the authorities. If any channel displeases them they may switch it off without any explanation. Cable TV operators are prone to change the broadcasing roster the way they like again without any explanation or apologies. At least this is the way in Ukraine and I don't think it is any better with the more controlled media space in Russia.
As for Internet, Ukrainian and Russsian rural communities are sparsely provided with it. Even if they are internet users are predominantly young people but Russsia (as well as Ukraine) is an ageing nation, especially in the countryside which able-bodied young people escape in droves. There are entire villages populated by pensioners with no internet aspiration.
The life of most people is hard work from early morning till late in the evening. So if they get any news it is from the traditional 9 p.m. news program. And you understand how carefully prepared it is. And generally speaking, many people in Russia like their president and trust their TV.
As for access to Ukrainian TV in the Crimea, I have told you the sentiment of people over there.They watch and trust Russian TV more.

Lots of bollox, but it doesn't matter. You didn't offer a single good reason why would Russians be worse informed than Ukrainians. "They trust their TV", is not a good reason. Group mentality, what Fisherking mentioned, applies just as equally to Ukrainians and most other nations in the world. That is somewhat understandable as we tend to notice the divisions and difference of opinion within our own nation, while we generally consider other nations as monolithic blocks. You mention how Russian like to have Tsar figure, who tells them what to do. Why, then, would Russians tend to topple so many of their governments, from the middle ages to this day? Number of rebellions and revolutions are certainly high, more than most nations in the world. As for how many people in Russia like and trust their president, a research conducted a month or two ago shows that more than half of Russians wouldn't like to see Putin as their president again.

Also, don't you think that their fear is at least partly justified, considering the amount of neo-nazi and far right groups were involved in the revolution? Svoboda party is a neo-nazi party in disguise. Founded in 1990's under the name of Social-National party of Ukraine, with this as their logo

whose leader doesn't shy away from this kind of gestures

whose leader thinks that Ukraine must be rid of the influence of "Jews from Moscow", whose members found "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center", whose members call the Holocaust "a period of light in History".

Just a little justified, maybe, when 10-15 thousand of protesters in January were honouring Stepan Bandera, whom Tyahnybok glorifies because he fought ""Russians, Germans, Jewry and other crap"? A little more justified, perhaps, when taking into account Svoboda's party platform which contains a part in which only ethnic Ukrainians are allowed to hold civic jobs? How many important positions in Kiev Svoboda now holds?

That is without mentioning other smaller far right and neo nazi organizations involved.

My opinion, as someone whose been a part of something similar, here in my own country? You're gonna pay for that, just like we paid and are still paying because democratic opposition politicians employed thugs like that in 2000. It's gonna take a lot of time and effort to get rid of that vermin.

So, yes, the Russians in the Crimea brainwashed by Putin are the biggest problem.

[Brenus]

Don't forget the Ukrainian Joan of Arc...

[Fragony]

Can we please agree on that we have absolutily no understanding of what is going on at the moment on just about every level? International politics, game of chess.

Never play chess with Russians, rule #1

[HoreTore]

Lots of bollox, but it doesn't matter. You didn't offer a single good reason why would Russians be worse informed than Ukrainians. "They trust their TV", is not a good reason. Group mentality, what Fisherking mentioned, applies just as equally to Ukrainians and most other nations in the world. That is somewhat understandable as we tend to notice the divisions and difference of opinion within our own nation, while we generally consider other nations as monolithic blocks. You mention how Russian like to have Tsar figure, who tells them what to do. Why, then, would Russians tend to topple so many of their governments, from the middle ages to this day? Number of rebellions and revolutions are certainly high, more than most nations in the world. As for how many people in Russia like and trust their president, a research conducted a month or two ago shows that more than half of Russians wouldn't like to see Putin as their president again.

Also, don't you think that their fear is at least partly justified, considering the amount of neo-nazi and far right groups were involved in the revolution? Svoboda party is a neo-nazi party in disguise. Founded in 1990's under the name of Social-National party of Ukraine, with this as their logo

whose leader doesn't shy away from this kind of gestures

whose leader thinks that Ukraine must be rid of the influence of "Jews from Moscow", whose members found "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center", whose members call the Holocaust "a period of light in History".

Just a little justified, maybe, when 10-15 thousand of protesters in January were honouring Stepan Bandera, whom Tyahnybok glorifies because he fought ""Russians, Germans, Jewry and other crap"? A little more justified, perhaps, when taking into account Svoboda's party platform which contains a part in which only ethnic Ukrainians are allowed to hold civic jobs? How many important positions in Kiev Svoboda now holds?

That is without mentioning other smaller far right and neo nazi organizations involved.

My opinion, as someone whose been a part of something similar, here in my own country? You're gonna pay for that, just like we paid and are still paying because democratic opposition politicians employed thugs like that in 2000. It's gonna take a lot of time and effort to get rid of that vermin.

So, yes, the Russians in the Crimea brainwashed by Putin are the biggest problem.

How large is the fascist presence in the pro-EU/western/anti-russian/anti-yanu/whateverwecallthemnow faction, Sarmatian?




As for Russian honesty in contested areas, I refer you to Chechnya's election results showing a 99,5% support for Putin.

[Sarmatian]

How large is the fascist presence in the pro-EU/western/anti-russian/anti-yanu/whateverwecallthemnow faction, Sarmatian?

5 ministries in the new government, if I'm not mistaken. It's hard to come by that information. Western press tend to ignore Svoboda and focus on Klitshcko and Yatsenuk. In fact, if someone finds a full list of new ministers and their party affiliation, please share, I'd like to see it.

As for Russian honesty in contested areas, I refer you to Chechnya's election results showing a 99,5% support for Putin.

Russia is brutal just as West is when its interests are at stake, I don't contest that. I just don't subscribe to the Tolkinesque appraisal of the situation.

[Gilrandir]

Lots of bollox, but it doesn't matter. You didn't offer a single good reason why would Russians be worse informed than Ukrainians. "They trust their TV", is not a good reason. Group mentality, what Fisherking mentioned, applies just as equally to Ukrainians and most other nations in the world. That is somewhat understandable as we tend to notice the divisions and difference of opinion within our own nation, while we generally consider other nations as monolithic blocks. You mention how Russian like to have Tsar figure, who tells them what to do. Why, then, would Russians tend to topple so many of their governments, from the middle ages to this day? Number of rebellions and revolutions are certainly high, more than most nations in the world. As for how many people in Russia like and trust their president, a research conducted a month or two ago shows that more than half of Russians wouldn't like to see Putin as their president again.

Also, don't you think that their fear is at least partly justified, considering the amount of neo-nazi and far right groups were involved in the revolution? Svoboda party is a neo-nazi party in disguise. Founded in 1990's under the name of Social-National party of Ukraine, with this as their logo

whose leader doesn't shy away from this kind of gestures

whose leader thinks that Ukraine must be rid of the influence of "Jews from Moscow", whose members found "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center", whose members call the Holocaust "a period of light in History".

Just a little justified, maybe, when 10-15 thousand of protesters in January were honouring Stepan Bandera, whom Tyahnybok glorifies because he fought ""Russians, Germans, Jewry and other crap"? A little more justified, perhaps, when taking into account Svoboda's party platform which contains a part in which only ethnic Ukrainians are allowed to hold civic jobs? How many important positions in Kiev Svoboda now holds?

That is without mentioning other smaller far right and neo nazi organizations involved.

My opinion, as someone whose been a part of something similar, here in my own country? You're gonna pay for that, just like we paid and are still paying because democratic opposition politicians employed thugs like that in 2000. It's gonna take a lot of time and effort to get rid of that vermin.

So, yes, the Russians in the Crimea brainwashed by Putin are the biggest problem.

I don't like Tyagnybok more than you do. I am aware of the character of the party he heads. But he played his part in toppling Yanukovych who evokes even greater aversion in many minds and hearts. At least Tyagnybok is honest in what he professes. Yanukovych is constantly lying how kind and democratic he is. Do you know that Yanukovych has been in prison twice during Soviet times for street robbery and was charged with rape (acquitted for the lack of evidence)? So calling Tyagnybok a thug we might as well apply that word to Yanukovych.
And I want to introduce to you some necessary ptotagonists of the latest events in Ukraine - titushki (Sg. titushka). It is a generalized last name of one of such guys. He was the first to become personally known to public at large as he assaulted journalists who tried to film a procession of his likes.
Those titushki are young men of 18-25 associated with some martial arts sport clubs and also some with criminal past (of even present). They were hired by the authorities to do the dirty job that the police couldn't in view of its ostensibly legal status. Titushki were usually armed with baseball bats, iron rods and chains and their task was to bully, scare and bash protesters and civil citzens symathizing with them. Very ofen they were brought by buses from other cities, fed, provided with light drugs and guarded by the police. The police just watched them do their job doing nothing to prevent it. Moreover, if such titushki were caught and brought to the police department they were released very soon. I saw a video in which some people took a knife from a titushka and the police officer returned the weapon to him. I heard of similar phenomenon in Latin America in 1970s - death squadrons they were called.
Again, I don't want to justify Tyagnybok and his ardent adherents, but I want you (and others) to see both sides of the story.
As for Bandera, he is one more controversial figure (but very popular in Western Ukraine). Personally he didn't participate in atrocities connected with his name as he spent most of his adulthood in Polish prison and later in a Nazi concentration camp. But he was an ideologist of the movement, so he is thought to be responsible for what was going on.
The main thing he is charged with by his adversaries is being a collaborationist. Plus the movement he founded (UPA - Ukrainian Insurgent Army) was involved in massacres of Poles and "shooting in the back" of Soviet soldiers who liberated Ukraine from fascists. All of them are true.
But again, let us see both sides of the story. In 1939, when the Soviet Union occupied Western Ukraine people welcomed the Soviet troops who were thought to be delivering them from Polish oppression. In less then two years they welcomed the Germans as heartily. The Soviet regime by its obnoxious behavior (to put it mildly) had managed to "estrange" the citizens so much that the Nazis were hailed as deliverers. At this time Bandera was among those hoping for creation of an independent Ukrainian state. So much for collaborationism. But later when he saw that the Germans never meant to grant statehood to Ukraine UPA turned its weapons against them and Bandera was put to the concentration camp where he spent the rest of the war. When the Soviet troops advanced UPA fought both against them and the Germans. A story of a collaborationist? Perhaps.
But others may be charged with collaboration as well. First of all, the Soviet Union. Probably you know of a joint military parade Germans and Soviets held at Brest after partitioning Poland. There is other evidence: when German bombers "unloaded" above Warsaw they were radio directed from Minsk; when Germans attacked Norway their planes were quartered and flew to the mission from Murmansk region. Many Nazi bosses (the head of Gestapo Muller one of them) studied in Soviet police academies. And the notoriuos Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?
Western democracies behaved no better: they agreed to Hitler ocuppying parts of Czechoslovakia (and later all of it), turned a blind eye on Anschluss of Austria and so on and so forth.
The bottomline: at the beginning of WWII EVERYONE was a collaborationist. If we admit it, it would be easier to finally make peace. At least in Ukraine where history is revisited very often, as in other countries (e.g. Spain with its civil war) people learned not to refer to the past to emphasize the differences but to see the common present and goals they are to reach in future.

[HoreTore]

when Germans attacked Norway their planes were quartered and flew to the mission from Murmansk region.

When?

Source?

[Gilrandir]

When?

Source?

I don't remember the name of a documentary I saw, I just know it was a British one. As for when, I guess in 1940 but I'm not sure.

[HoreTore]

I don't remember the name of a documentary I saw, I just know it was a British one. As for when, I guess in 1940 but I'm not sure.

The invasion of Norway consisted of two phases: the initial attack in April and the "last stand" around Narvik. The problem with the claim of German planes stationed in Murmansk, is that for the first part they only bombed the south. When they eventually bombed the north, they had captured* the airbase Værnes outside Trondheim.

Flying planes from Murmansk just doesn't make any sense.

*it was in German hands before any German had even set foot in Norway...

[Gilrandir]

The invasion of Norway consisted of two phases: the initial attack in April and the "last stand" around Narvik. The problem with the claim of German planes stationed in Murmansk, is that for the first part they only bombed the south. When they eventually bombed the north, they had captured* the airbase Værnes outside Trondheim.

Flying planes from Murmansk just doesn't make any sense.

*it was in German hands before any German had even set foot in Norway...

I am as puzzled as you are. Probably, the planes didn't bomb, they had other purpose. But I report it as I heard.

[HoreTore]

I am as puzzled as you are. Probably, the planes didn't bomb, they had other purpose. But I report it as I heard.

Still doesn't make any sense. I would suggest the claim is false.

[Sarmatian]

I don't remember the name of a documentary I saw, I just know it was a British one. As for when, I guess in 1940 but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that's bollox. From Finland, perhaps, but from Soviet Union, no chance.

Too long to quote.

I don't disagree with you about Yanukovich. Hang him by his private parts. Hang Tyahnybok right next to him, give Timoshenko a nice, 30+ years, all expenses paid vacation in a spa and send Klitschko back to Germany with a thank you note.

Then start the real cleaning, placing tycoons in jail and their political lackeys with them.

Legalize the reality that Ukraine is bilingual and make Russian the second official language in the country and guarantee rights of the ethnic Russians.

Declare military neutrality and preferably write it down in the constitution. Offer them 20 years longer lease of naval bases in Crimea. Now Russia has no cause to intervene (and few reasons to).

Refuse to sign a definitive deal, either with Russia or EU. Postpone in until the country is stabilized. Instead go for bilateral agreements, emphasizing importance of both Russia and EU as a trading partner.

In a decade or two, the situation might be vastly different.

Unfortunately, that scenario is highly unlikely. What's probably gonna happen, the harsh reality, is that your politicians are gonna go for EU exclusively, possibly even pushing for NATO membership (unlikely), which is gonna piss of Russia, and you won't get in NATO anyway, simply because Germany and most European NATO members aren't prepared to go to war with Russia over Ukraine, simple as that. You have 50/50 chance to keep Crimea. You're gonna get a few billions from EU, but soon the novelty will have worn off and some other crisis in the world will demand their attention. You won't deal with corruption adequately, which will stifle most foreign investments. Come next winter, or the one after, you will again be praying that someone in Russia doesn't decide you should pay market price for gas instead of subsidized price so you don't freeze.

I really wish you all the best, but with these "changes", I don't believe you'll get anywhere.

[Sarmatian]

Putin has asked permission from the upper house to deploy troops in Ukraine. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26400035.

This is very, very, very bad.

[gaelic cowboy]

well now were in a pickle lads, will we see washington and london honour there treaty obligation to protect Ukraines integrity.


1914 anyone