Special Forces - who is the best?

[Montmorency]

How is that relevant? It's not even correct and bears no resemblance to what I said.

Huh?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ugh, so they learn how to hit a target at <3m distance, the RPO Shmel has a range of 600m, the Spetsnaz will turn them into Kentucky fried chicks no matter how fast they can draw their peashooters.

You clearly didn't see the guy draw the DOUBLE KNIVES after shooting and face the camera. Or perhaps you did but it was too extreme for you and it melted the part of your brain that tried to remember it.

CR

[Fisherking]

You clearly didn't see the guy draw the DOUBLE KNIVES after shooting and face the camera. Or perhaps you did but it was too extreme for you and it melted the part of your brain that tried to remember it.

CR

There is so much wrong with that clip. And the training, and the people who thought it up.

Training Police to think they are Rambo… and we wonder why they shoot kids with toy guns and game controllers?

[Brenus]

“Indeed, ask the French about the Maginot line” Weeellll, the Germans didn’t attack the Maginot line, didn’t they. They avoid carefully, and with good reason to do so. Now, I gave you Eben-Emael.

[Major Robert Dump]

My balls are pretty awesome

[Sarmatian]

My balls are pretty awesome

For the tenth time, your private parts do not constitute a special force, irregardless of how much training you give them.

[Fisherking]

For the tenth time, your private parts do not constitute a special force, irregardless of how much training you give them.

MRD was part of a very special unit. Though now he may be trolling to provide special services...

[Husar]

Huh?

How many handguns can be accurately used out to 600m?
The situation of Germany in late WW2 has nothing to do with the situation of Spetsnaz in a fight against other special forces.

You clearly didn't see the guy draw the DOUBLE KNIVES after shooting and face the camera. Or perhaps you did but it was too extreme for you and it melted the part of your brain that tried to remember it.

CR

How many people can hit someone with double knives who is 600m away?

“Indeed, ask the French about the Maginot line” Weeellll, the Germans didn’t attack the Maginot line, didn’t they. They avoid carefully, and with good reason to do so. Now, I gave you Eben-Emael.

Did the french keep the Maginot line? I don't think so.In the end the barn was lost anyway, not my fault that western special forces always train barn assault and barn defense while Spetsnaz have a weapon of barn destruction.

[Kadagar_AV]

I liked the part where the white guy beat up all the Turks

Actually he was rather Mongolian looking than white... Not all Russians are white, it's a wast territory you know :)

[Fisherking]

How many handguns can be accurately used out to 600m?

I know you are having fun but lets play this game.

600meter is nothing. You must be assuming that a 50 cal wont kill the guy before he get that close.

Bunkers are usually arranged in groups with interlocking fires. Lighter weapons in them would be M-2 cal .50s and Mk 19 grenade launchers.

They would not be as easy to see or take out as the cinderblock building shown in the film with big windows.

That is if they got past the scout platoon that was out in front of the bunker line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher

Don’t even get me started on how two cavalry scouts would wipe out all of them. ;)

[Fisherking]

Actually he was rather Mongolian looking than white... Not all Russians are white, it's a wast territory you know :)

you have been hanging out with German speakers too long boy. Confusing Vs and Ws.

[Sarmatian]

Don’t even get me started on how two cavalry scouts would wipe out all of them. ;)

Not if the special forces are in a phalanx formation.

[Kadagar_AV]

you have been hanging out with German speakers too long boy. Confusing Vs and Ws.

Caught me... Came back from Austria two days ago... vhere ze trainz runz on TIME, Verdammt!!

[Husar]

I know you are having fun but lets play this game.

600meter is nothing. You must be assuming that a 50 cal wont kill the guy before he get that close.

Bunkers are usually arranged in groups with interlocking fires. Lighter weapons in them would be M-2 cal .50s and Mk 19 grenade launchers.

They would not be as easy to see or take out as the cinderblock building shown in the film with big windows.

That is if they got past the scout platoon that was out in front of the bunker line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher

Don’t even get me started on how two cavalry scouts would wipe out all of them. ;)

Spetsnaz are not meant and not stupid enough to try a frontal attack on your bunker. I also wonder how we came from a barn to a bunker.

But if you want to play this game, everybody knows that all American houses/barns fall apart much faster than a cinderblock building. I wouldn't trust american bunkers too much, someone might have had the bright idea to build them with wood so they can be rebuilt faster after their avoidable destruction.

Cavalry scouts wouldn't do much against Spetsnaz.
Here's a video about Spetsnaz weapons that also points out the huge failure of Delta Force in Mogadishu, proving that Spetsnaz are clearly superior:

[Gregoshi]

Oh yeah? Well my guys in my hypothetical situation can beat up your guys in (my interpretation of) your hypothetical situation! And all before breakfast. So there!

[Husar]

Oh yeah? Well my guys in my hypothetical situation can beat up your guys in (my interpretation of) your hypothetical situation! And all before breakfast. So there!

Beating up Russians?



Good luck with that!

[Brenus]

"Did the french keep the Maginot line? I don't think so" No, they didn't, because special Forces attacked them in the back, and that is what special forces are trained to do. But, the way was opened by none special forces, armored divisions through Ardennes (Bulges).

[Husar]

No, they didn't, because special Forces attacked them in the back, and that is what special forces are trained to do. But, the way was opened by none special forces, armored divisions through Ardennes (Bulges).

The point was about defensive positions, the Wehrmacht didn't really have any special forces in the modern sense anyway IIRC.

[Fisherking]

Look, the whole thing is a game of “My dog’s better than your dog!”

Who is best trained? I doubt anyone can tell you that honestly. Guessing I would say Delta and SAS. Not the SEALs regardless of what you see or think you see. Russian Alpha? Maybe.

Who is most effective? Last time I checked it would be Israel and Russia. The SEALs managed a couple of quick strikes lately but I would have to know more.

The US has always been good at training the operators. They just suck went it comes to executing missions. Mostly because of the halfwit job they do in planning. Command and Staff mixed with political objectives.

Maybe they have gotten a little better since most of the military missions are now geared more to special ops than traditional missions, but that is not the way to win wars. Just tick people off.

The way to neutralize the threat of special ops is to better train regular troops, but that doesn’t grab headlines or get generals promoted.

Special operators don’t fight other special forces. That is some Hollywood scenario.

[Husar]

What was so great about the Osama mission anyway?

The only real skill involved was in building and flying the helicopters with reduced radar cross sections that allowed them to get in in the first place.
Shooting the five armed guys in a house full of women and noncombatants can't have been the hard part, normal army soldiers do that regularly as Jelly Cube said.
It was a dirty murder job where they sat still in a helicopter during the hardest part, getting into the country unnoticed.

That's why children want to be pilots and not SEALs.

So as an aside, who makes the better SEAL? LL Cool J or Alex O'Loughlin?

[Beskar]

Actually, the intelligence side of the Osama mission was pretty impressive, they basically stalked everyone who has links with Al Qaeda for years following breadcrumbs till they kept notes of the messenger and increased priority level by level till they had a good level of suspicion.

[Husar]

Actually, the intelligence side of the Obama mission was pretty impressive, they basically stalked everyone who has links with Al Qaeda for years following breadcrumbs till they kept notes of the messenger and increased priority level by level till they had a good level of suspicion.

I suppose you mean the Osama mission, the Obama mission just stalked everybody who has links with American voters by sending them dozens of emails AFAIK.

And we just learned how the NSA and other US security agencies are stalking everyone with all the means at their disposal, nothing to do with the Special Forces themselves though.

[Papewaio]

I don't know who the best are but one of the best with the coolest nickname was "Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare" in WWII.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speci...ions_Executive

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't know who the best are but one of the best with the coolest nickname was "Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare" in WWII.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speci...ions_Executive

See? This is why the actual English should be the shining beacon of the English language, and anyone speaking USAnian should.. Learn to speak English.

[Myth]

I didn't quite get why they needed stealth choppers when they were flying alongside 3 regular ones which used radar jammers or whatever that tech does.

Oh, and the pilot managed to crash one of the two stealth choppers when landing in the courtyard, so the SEALs had to demo it upon exit. Which they sort of messed up, because the tail rotor survived.

Beware the upcoming pakistani stealth choppers!

When we are talking about conventional forces - what are the equivalents to the US Marine corps for other countries when it comes to power projection overseas? And I saw in the Ukraine thread that GC stated that Russian tanks are equal or superior to the Abrhams currently employed by the US forces. But isn't anti-tank warfare the primary reason why the USA has about 8000 choppers employed in its army?

[Husar]

Good question about the stealth helicopters.

As for the tanks, apparently none of them are invulnerable or going to survive a lot of hits by anything modern. With older equipment you can probably hit them several times in the front as can be seen on videos from Syria with older T-72 models. But the Syrian rebels do not really seploay top attack missiles or similar measures. Russian tanks have some newer protection systems anyway, such as the Shtora laser disruption system or the ARENA active protection system that blows up incoming rockets/missiles before impact. Several other nations like the US and Israel are developing similar active protection systems but my completely uninformed impression is that Russia is a bit ahead as I have not yet seen an Abrams equipped with such a system while there are a few videos on youtube demonstrating ARENA at least in live fire tests.

Either way the US would have to get Abrams to Crimea first. I'm not sure a D-Day-style beach invasion would be popular or work quite as well as it did in 1944 given that Russia would fire quite a lot of stuff at the incoming ships.

As for helicopters, yes, but helicopters alone only really work with some sort of air superiority and I'm not sure how the helicopter vs. ground-based air defense game is going these days. The Russians surely have sophisticated and modern systems in these areas and a few helicopters of their own.

And concerning Marine Corps, quite a few countries have those, Netherlands, Britain, France, Russia. Germany does not because force projection was not really a goal here since the third reich projected a little too much force in its days.

[Myth]

Ah yes, the Nazis. If only they had been a little less bonkers, Germany would probably have been the #3 military in the world today. That's probably the reason why you also lack nuclear arms I guess?

Also, air defence systems work over Russia, but the Crimea is probably not that well defended. And the USA still has the largest air fleet as well. And probably the best one tech wise.

[Kagemusha]

I didn't quite get why they needed stealth choppers when they were flying alongside 3 regular ones which used radar jammers or whatever that tech does.

Oh, and the pilot managed to crash one of the two stealth choppers when landing in the courtyard, so the SEALs had to demo it upon exit. Which they sort of messed up, because the tail rotor survived.

Beware the upcoming pakistani stealth choppers!

When we are talking about conventional forces - what are the equivalents to the US Marine corps for other countries when it comes to power projection overseas? And I saw in the Ukraine thread that GC stated that Russian tanks are equal or superior to the Abrhams currently employed by the US forces. But isn't anti-tank warfare the primary reason why the USA has about 8000 choppers employed in its army?

I can comment few basic things about modern MBT´s and bit more about how to defeat them from my limited knowledge. Im sure GC can tell you just about everything from tankers view.
Basically East and West have bit different approach to basic tank armor.

Western armor generally has composite armor, which means layers of different materials, functioning so that the different layers eat up the kinetic or explosive force of the projectile, thus denying penetration.

Eastern (Russian) armor is usually solid steel, but has nova days ERA, which is very interesting approach. It is basically lot of shaped charges placed on top the steel armor. It´s function is to defeat the incoming projectile by counter energy.

Of course as armor develops, so will the means to defeat armor. The most modern AT missiles have tandem HEAT warheads where two warheads hit one after another the same spot in the armor, thus defeating both classic Western and Eastern countermeasures many times. In Finnish inventory such AT missile is PSTOHJ 2000M (aka Eurospike) our lighter AT system is NLAW, which is a one man portable fire and forget AT missile which missile has double sensor for defeating systems like SHTORA. It is interesting indeed if countermeasure like ARENA can still defeat both. But i bet there is little it can do about multiple incoming projectiles. Like said earlier. It is endless race and there are lot of very deadly stuff around.

Of course portable AT missiles are not at all only ways to effectively destroy armor. With enough HE you can destroy anything and the classic approach of large caliber kinetic projectiles like modern tank guns and autocannons for example GAU- 8 of US A-10 attack aircraft can defeat tanks.

All in all we can never be sure what works and what not to most modern designs, unless there would be a war between two sides with latest equipments, which i think in the end we really dont want to witness.

[Fisherking]

Up to date ratings on tanks. http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...ttle_tanks.htm

The Air Farce is retiring the A-10. They never liked it. It supports the Army and it is more glamorous to fly fighter planes.

[Kagemusha]

Up to date ratings on tanks. http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...ttle_tanks.htm

The Air Farce is retiring the A-10. They never liked it. It supports the Army and it is more glamorous to fly fighter planes.

I think that is a big mistake. Talk about bang for a buck when one talks about A-10. Maybe we can buy some of them dirt cheap like the Dutch Leopard 2a6 fleet? Petty, pretty please..?