Ukraine-in-a-thread

[drone]

Obama's foreign policy is just about what I would expect from a Chicago politician with 2 years experience in the US Senate.

[rvg]

If this crisis has taught us anything it's that if you ever drop the "bad guy" baton and refuse to use it, somebody else will immediately pick it up and start swinging to his heart's content. Moral of the story: never drop the baton. It's better if we are the "good bad guy" or "bad good guy", then for someone like Putin getting the opportunity to be the true bad guy and living up to that reputation.

Can't wait for 2016.

[HoreTore]

If this crisis has taught us anything it's that if you ever drop the "bad guy" baton and refuse to use it, somebody else will immediately pick it up and start swinging to his heart's content. Moral of the story: never drop the baton. It's better if we are the "good bad guy" or "bad good guy", then for someone like Putin getting the opportunity to be the true bad guy and living up to that reputation.

Can't wait for 2016.

I fail to see how this is a disastrous turn of events for the wider world.

[Beskar]

Obama's foreign policy is just about what I would expect from a Chicago politician with 2 years experience in the US Senate.

His competition's view was "Nuke Iran". He could have done a lot worse...

[rvg]

I fail to see how this is a disastrous turn of events for the wider world.

Is the world better off today than it was two months ago?

[Kagemusha]

I have listened to the Tymoshenko phone tape and my bet is that our Russian friends might have indeed tapered a bit it, as Tymoshenko is saying that 8 million Russians in Ukraine should be nuked and that does not make exactly any sense as it would require nuking Ukraine.. Otherwise dear Julia does not exactly come off as sane person either.. Come to think she is ex president of Ukraine.Here is the tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RxSzSWbcxo

[HoreTore]

Is the world better off today than it was two months ago?

I would say the situation is the same as it was.

[rvg]

I would say the situation is the same as it was.

I would say it's significantly worse and about to go even further downhill. Time will tell.

[drone]

His competition's view was "Nuke Iran". He could have done a lot worse...

Welcome to our hell.

[Montmorency]

General reply:

Do not conflate the administration for the individual. Obama is much less than his administration. When you elect a POTUS, you are electing an administration - the man himself is hardly relevant, and this has been true for about 50 years.

[Montmorency]

Now, to clear something up: Obama could make the Chief Executive stronger in theory - there is always that possibility open to strong leaders - but for now that position is heavily-constrained, and Obama-as-man probably lacks both the skill and the desire to loosen the bonds.

[Gilrandir]

It is NOT the Russian minority (majority in Ukraine) that wanted to kill others minorities.

It is the first time I hear of any ethnicity in Ukraine wanting to kill another. Again: Maidan was a multinational phenomenon. There was no talk of exterminating ANY nationality.

So, we can argue about legitimacy of a coup in one side and the legality of a coup in the other side as much as you want, but the Nazism in action is actually on the Ukrainian side. Without these Nazi, perhaps, perhaps, the cessation of Crimea wouldn’t have happened.

You are doing what I criticized Sarmatian for: denouncing Nazis on one side and choosing to ignore Nazis on the other. I refer you to my posts about what is going on in Crimea now. And I can add some more: fugitives start to flee from the peninsula reporting bullying and hostility to any who express dislike of Russia's takeover. Admitting oneself to be Ukrainian is a worse sin. The best is yet to come.

[Gilrandir]

Come to think she is ex president of Ukraine.

Correction: ex-prime minister.

[Kagemusha]

Correction: ex-prime minister.

Thanks for the correction. To me bit of a nutter nevertheless..

[Gilrandir]

Thanks for the correction. To me bit of a nutter nevertheless..

I don't like Tymoshenko, but knowing her to be a very cautious politician I can well believe that the most startling parts of the conversation were forged.

[HoreTore]

You are doing what I criticized Sarmatian for: denouncing Nazis on one side and choosing to ignore Nazis on the other. I refer you to my posts about what is going on in Crimea now. And I can add some more: fugitives start to flee from the peninsula reporting bullying and hostility to any who express dislike of Russia's takeover. Admitting oneself to be Ukrainian is a worse sin. The best is yet to come.

....and ignoring how the interrim government has started cracking down on their own fascists(right sector leader killed during arrest) gives an even clearer picture of how selective their perception is.

[Sarmatian]

I have listened to the Tymoshenko phone tape and my bet is that our Russian friends might have indeed tapered a bit it, as Tymoshenko is saying that 8 million Russians in Ukraine should be nuked and that does not make exactly any sense as it would require nuking Ukraine.. Otherwise dear Julia does not exactly come off as sane person either.. Come to think she is ex president of Ukraine.Here is the tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RxSzSWbcxo

Could be, could be. The rest of the conversation is enough to safely label her a fruitcake.

Correction: ex-prime minister.

Thanks for the correction. To me bit of a nutter nevertheless..

And possible future president.

It seems there will be three options: herself, Tyahnybok and Klitschko... and the guy who spent all his working years receiving punches in the head looks the sanest option. There's a hidden message in there somewhere, I just can't find it.

[Gilrandir]

And possible future president.

It seems there will be three options: herself, Tyahnybok and Klitschko... and the guy who spent all his working years receiving punches in the head looks the sanest option. There's a hidden message in there somewhere, I just can't find it.

There is the Communist Symonenko, the Party of Regions' bid Tygypko, the ex-mayor of Kharkiv Dobkin and some others may yet show up.
As for Tymoshenko's chances: a popular believe here is that her time has gone. The way Maidan reacted when she spoke to it showed that as plain as pikestaff. She has lost much of her popularity with the pro-western electorate (due to her long-time absence from the active politics) and is still obnoxious for the pro-Russian one.
The sanest choice I see is Poroshenko (I wonder how you guys don't get lost among all those outlandish names), though I don't know whether he will run for the office. Anyway, according to the new old constitution the role of the president will not be that significant as it used to be.

[HoreTore]

I wonder how you guys don't get lost among all those outlandish names

We just call all of them Ivan. Makes things easier. So, we have blonde girl-Ivan, boxing-Ivan, and so on....

[Sarmatian]

There is the Communist Symonenko, the Party of Regions' bid Tygypko, the ex-mayor of Kharkiv Dobkin and some others may yet show up.
As for Tymoshenko's chances: a popular believe here is that her time has gone. The way Maidan reacted when she spoke to it showed that as plain as pikestaff. She has lost much of her popularity with the pro-western electorate (due to her long-time absence from the active politics) and is still obnoxious for the pro-Russian one.
The sanest choice I see is Poroshenko (I wonder how you guys don't get lost among all those outlandish names), though I don't know whether he will run for the office. Anyway, according to the new old constitution the role of the president will not be that significant as it used to be.

The problem is see is Tyahnybok. During a crisis, nut jobs like himself tend to get a lot more support, so it is entirely plausible he will get enough to get to the run-off. In the run-off, I see most people supporting the other candidate. The question is who will that second candidate be. I don't believe any Party of Regions candidate would get there. They're disorganized and seen as too pro-Russian for the current situation. Timoshenko just might get enough support. Klitschko is, well... Klitschko, he'll get some votes but not enough.

Who's Poroshenko, what's his story?

We just call all of them Ivan. Makes things easier. So, we have blonde girl-Ivan, boxing-Ivan, and so on....

Russians are called Ivan. These are Ukrainians. There's a difference, you ignorant Swede.

[HoreTore]

Russians are called Ivan. These are Ukrainians. There's a difference, you ignorant Swede.

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and drinks vodka like a Russian, it's a Russian. So, Ivan.

[rvg]

...There's a difference, you ignorant Swede.

I see what you did there...

Who's Poroshenko, what's his story?

He's Ukraine's Willy Wonka. Also an ex-PM.

[Kagemusha]

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and drinks vodka like a Russian, it's a Russian. So, Ivan.

My Swedish friend certainly makes a point there.

[rvg]

My Swedish friend certainly makes a point there.

Let's call him Sven.

[Gilrandir]

Who's Poroshenko, what's his story?

He was close to Yushchenko during the Orange revolution, got some ministerial posts (foreign affairs, economy, the chief of national bank) even when Yanukovych was prime minister but later was apparently disillusioned in Yushchenko's insipidity and moved out of his orbit. He owns a confectinary enterprises network (perhaps someone heard of "Roshen" since its plants are in Europe (Hungary, I believe) as well as in Russia).
Well, you can find more information on him if you like - I don't want to be blamed in keeping secret some particularly unpleasant fact about him (that is there are some as much as about any Ukrainian politician). I cannot deny he was an active pro-Maidan figure. Yet currently he is the most balanced option likely to get support in different regions of Ukraine. Recent polls call him a leader of presidential race (22%).

[Gilrandir]

Russians are called Ivan. These are Ukrainians. There's a difference, you ignorant Swede.

Actually, Ivan is as much a Ukrainian name as Russian.

[Gilrandir]

I don't believe any Party of Regions candidate would get there. They're disorganized and seen as too pro-Russian for the current situation.

They started to play their old tune of the second official language. Is THIS a timely call likely to instill unity among people in times of turmoil?
The latest news of Tygypko: his party is quote surprised unquote by his decision to run for the presidency. He quote started too soon without consulting anyone within the party unquote.

[Kagemusha]

Actually, Ivan is as much a Ukrainian name as Russian.

Now there is a real cause for war. Fight to the last who gets to be called Ivan! Maybe Putin could get for once run for his money in 1vs 1 against Klitschko

[Gilrandir]

Now there is a real cause for war. Fight to the last who gets to be called Ivan!

To differentiate I suggest calling the Ukrainian Ivan "the nazi Ivan" and the Russian Ivan "Ivan the Deliverer".

[Kagemusha]

To differentiate I suggest calling the Ukrainian Ivan "the nazi Ivan" and the Russian Ivan "Ivan the Deliverer".

Nah! Too long, lets just put Putin and Klitschko in the cage to settle it once and for all.I would pay good money to see that..