What are your cheapest core units to defeat Rome?

[zenisar]

Really? I've found them a good deal less capable than Keltohellenikoi.

I just play around with Arverni campaign, trying to awake the "Celtic Storm" that once plundered Roma. Recently conquered Massilia. So in time, I will try once more both Keltohellenikoi and Massilian Hoplite against legions. Will let you know.

[QuintusSertorius]

I just play around with Arverni campaign, trying to awake the "Celtic Storm" that once plundered Roma. Recently conquered Massilia. So in time, I will try once more both Keltohellenikoi and Massilian Hoplite against legions. Will let you know.

Out of interest, are these Camillian or Polybian legions? Keltohellenikoi seem pretty well-matched to Camillian Hastati and even Principes, but the heavier-armoured Polybian variants are much more durable.

[athanaric]

Personally, I find it difficult to fight Romans as Gauls without axemen or other AP infantry. Reason being, Triarii (especially Camillan era), Pedites Extraordinarii, and Polybian Principes are very difficult to kill if all you have is spearmen and swordsmen. Sure, you have slingers and lancers for an AP punch, but they can't slug it out in melee. And slingers are notoriously bad at killing 4+ shield units from the front, and difficult to manoeuver around on the battlefield. Plus it's lame to spam those units. While Bataroas are the main killer unit in Gallic armies, you should always bring some Appea Gaedotos or Teceitos, or even Tekastos or Asturian axemen when fighting Romans.

[kdrakak]

Personally, I find it difficult to fight Romans as Gauls without axemen or other AP infantry. Reason being, Triarii (especially Camillan era), Pedites Extraordinarii, and Polybian Principes are very difficult to kill if all you have is spearmen and swordsmen. Sure, you have slingers and lancers for an AP punch, but they can't slug it out in melee.

In my experience, barbarian armies in Europe have the combination of speed, stamina and enhanced charge bonus as their greatest combat advantage. They don't hold the line against the Romans or anyone else... most of the time there is no line. They can however run their way to victory through any plan. They can team up on individual units that will rout and eventually get to the ones that don't usually rout, such as the Triarii and Pedites. Furthermore, most barbarian infantry units have a +8 charge bonus, while there are "freaks" with +10 or even +12 at reasonable prices, coming soon to a store near you! Outrun! Outcharge! Barbarize Barbarorum!!!

[Thoras]

In my experience, barbarian armies in Europe have the combination of speed, stamina and enhanced charge bonus as their greatest combat advantage. They don't hold the line against the Romans or anyone else... most of the time there is no line. They can however run their way to victory through any plan. They can team up on individual units that will rout and eventually get to the ones that don't usually rout, such as the Triarii and Pedites. Furthermore, most barbarian infantry units have a +8 charge bonus, while there are "freaks" with +10 or even +12 at reasonable prices, coming soon to a store near you! Outrun! Outcharge! Barbarize Barbarorum!!!

Well I'm currently playing a Sweboz campaign and they CAN definitely hold a line ;),even a against roman heavy infantry:
I usually pin them down with Dugundiz or Speudogordoz and use Clubmen to to kill them.

[kdrakak]

Well I'm currently playing a Sweboz campaign and they CAN definitely hold a line ;),even a against roman heavy infantry:
I usually pin them down with Dugundiz or Speudogordoz and use Clubmen to to kill them.

Speudogordoz are among the best Germanic infantry units, not "cheapest core". The principle is correct of course: gang up on them. However, if you are holding the line the attacker does the choosing. Why waiver that prerogative with a fast, high-stamina, barking band of beer-drunken and bloodthirsty Jerrys?
I would not really expect the Dugundiz to hold a line toe to toe against principes (which are pretty much same-tier units) under normal circumstances. But whatever floats your boat :)

[Thoras]

Speudogordoz are among the best Germanic infantry units, not "cheapest core". The principle is correct of course: gang up on them. However, if you are holding the line the attacker does the choosing. Why waiver that prerogative with a fast, high-stamina, barking band of beer-drunken and bloodthirsty Jerrys?
I would not really expect the Dugundiz to hold a line toe to toe against principes (which are pretty much same-tier units) under normal circumstances. But whatever floats your boat :)

It works if you block the Javelins ,with jugundiz, they can actually hold them with minimal losses,but most of my troops have 3 exp on default and my current main army(new campaign) has only silver chevrons.
Oh and they aren't holding the line for a long time I usually flank immediately,when fighting opponents with low morale I usually charge the enemy ;).

Speudogordoz are among the best Germanic infantry units, not "cheapest core".

Yeah I usually have only dugundiz ;) and the most of killing is done by the Slaganz .
But honestly by the time you get them you usually have enough money. ,my main point was that they can hold the line especially the Dacians and Sweboz.

[zenisar]

In my experience, barbarian armies in Europe have the combination of speed, stamina and enhanced charge bonus as their greatest combat advantage. They don't hold the line against the Romans or anyone else... most of the time there is no line. They can however run their way to victory through any plan. They can team up on individual units that will rout and eventually get to the ones that don't usually rout, such as the Triarii and Pedites. Furthermore, most barbarian infantry units have a +8 charge bonus, while there are "freaks" with +10 or even +12 at reasonable prices, coming soon to a store near you! Outrun! Outcharge! Barbarize Barbarorum!!!

Actually, my Bataroas held the line quite well, assuming I did not spread them too much but rather put their formation in multiple lines, reducing unit formation width but increasing unit depth. Though fighting with them usually requires a tactical trade-off to make: either let them stand and fire javelins (anf give up charge), or close and charge (and give up javelins). For both, there is usually not enough time before lines collide and melee starts.

[QuintusSertorius]

Don't wipe out the Aedui, transplant them somewhere else. If you're savvy with the move_character command and have Force Diplomacy installed, transplant them to Galatia (currently held by Pontos according to your campaign map) or Tylis (which looks rebel) or if you just want them out of the way, Ireland. Killing factions off is a waste, especially when they can become something else in another place.

[moonburn]

put them in the east and turn them into the boii give them segestica and that place with the druids and the cordinau orca

[zenisar]

Don't wipe out the Aedui, transplant them somewhere else. If you're savvy with the move_character command and have Force Diplomacy installed, transplant them to Galatia (currently held by Pontos according to your campaign map) or Tylis (which looks rebel) or if you just want them out of the way, Ireland. Killing factions off is a waste, especially when they can become something else in another place.

Regarding Aedui. well, unfortunately, I have to dissapoint you. The temptation was too strong, I could not resist. The brother of Arverni king set out on a campaign from Helvetis with 6 units of Bataroas, sneaked via Alpine passes unnoticed and besieged Mediolanum. Reiief Aedui army attacked, tough and hard-fought battle followed, resulting in heroic victory. The fate of Aedui, once mighty tribe and rulers of Gaul, was sealed in 2 seasons.

However, the idea of moving a faction to other location instead of wiping it out has some merit. For some time, I already think about occupying central Europe, role-playing Boii, and turn the whole continent of Europe into the "Europa Barbarorum" indeed. I am looking forward using Boii Swordsman as my core unit that are supposed to be professional experienced warriors, serving as mercenaries before. So I considered using Epeiros (for nicely looking cavalry), Aedui or Arverni (same culture). Though I never used the "move" command, and I am concerned whether this might corrupt the game campaign in any way?

[zenisar]

Personally, I find it difficult to fight Romans as Gauls without axemen or other AP infantry. Reason being, Triarii (especially Camillan era), Pedites Extraordinarii, and Polybian Principes are very difficult to kill if all you have is spearmen and swordsmen. Sure, you have slingers and lancers for an AP punch, but they can't slug it out in melee. And slingers are notoriously bad at killing 4+ shield units from the front, and difficult to manoeuver around on the battlefield. Plus it's lame to spam those units. While Bataroas are the main killer unit in Gallic armies, you should always bring some Appea Gaedotos or Teceitos, or even Tekastos or Asturian axemen when fighting Romans.

Yep, similar experience here. As far as I can remember from my previous Arverni campaign, units like Triarii and Pedites Extraordinarii always stood in the melee for very long time, and were among the last to break and rout.

Regarding Celtic Slingers, I fought a tight battle against Aedui near Massilia last night. First, I was actually losing, until my 2 FMs sandwiched enemy general and killed him. That turned the battle in my favor, initiating a multiple routs. With slingers, I focused their fire solely on a unit of enemy Gaesatae, though the kills were rather dissapointing, reducing their numbers from 120 down to 90 only until they ran out of ammo. Next time I will focus their fire on enemy general instead.

[zenisar]

Out of interest, are these Camillian or Polybian legions? Keltohellenikoi seem pretty well-matched to Camillian Hastati and even Principes, but the heavier-armoured Polybian variants are much more durable.

In my previous Arverni campaign, I focused more on role-playing, expanded slower, just enjoying game. So that when I invaded Italy between 230-220 BC fighting Romani, my Bataroas/Botroas faced already Polybian legions. At that time, also for roleplaying, I focused more on Celtic units and rather skipped Celto-Hellenic units, using them fron necessity only. In order to compensate the lightly armored regular Celtic infantry, I used the combo of smith / temple / field of games, boosting Bataroas from attack 10 / defence 20 to 13/23 stats. Plus giving the general some experience chasing rebels before engaging in any serious campaign against Romani.

In this Arverni campaign, just for a change, I wanted to rush more, expand faster in all directions, particularly to Italy, in order to fully assimilate conquered regions (as the Celts miss the highest tier cities). Sack Roma on the way, following Brennus in 390 BC. Reaching Sicily and Gibraltar ASAP. That was the plan anyway.

The year is 246 BC. Until now, I united Gaul though being slowed down by crappy economy and under-populated cities, delaying Celtic reforms even further. The Aedui are still alive and kicking, holding Mediolanum, fielding also Gaesatae quite frequently, attacking Massilia and Viennos. The Sweboz expanded towards Belgium, holding half of it. I allied with them, in the hope the war on this front could be postponed few decades, as expansion in this direction is currently not in my interest. And my economy cannot bear to feed another army.

In the meantime, I got distracted from my plan by treacherous QH attacking Emporion, having to divert my troops into Hispania. Among the strategic difficulties playing Arverni, aside from crappy economy and low population, is the necessity to (sooner or later) wage war on 3 fronts against up to 5 factions.

This time, fortunately, at least the Romani diverted from their usual attacks on Massilia for the time being (temporary relief, for sure), and focused their attention on expansion north-east, taking Patavium and later Segesta (hopefully). Since the year is 246 BC, they still field Camillan legions. The proportion of Triarii and Pedites Extraordinarii starts to worry me. Sooner or later, my lightly armored Celtic units will have to face them, and the outlook to protracted melee is not promising ...



The repeated Aedui attacks starts to get annoying, I am thinking on wiping them out soon. Perhaps, while they besiege Massilia, I could mount a surprise attack on Mediolanum via the Alps. Since Mediolanum is their only region, this would finish them off. What do you think?