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Thread: Don Sterling...

  1. #31
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Hull City Tigers.

    Cardiff City "Bluebirds".

    MK Bloody Dons.
    Officially the Hull City Tigers are "Hull City AFC" - their application to change their name was denied by the FA - the Tigers is merely a nickname right now

    the same is true of Cardiff - the Bluebirds is merely a nickname they are officially Cardiff City FC

    I know next to nothing about the MK Dons however a quick search shows they are officially Milton Keynes Dons FC

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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    Officially the Hull City Tigers are "Hull City AFC" - their application to change their name was denied by the FA - the Tigers is merely a nickname right now

    the same is true of Cardiff - the Bluebirds is merely a nickname they are officially Cardiff City FC

    I know next to nothing about the MK Dons however a quick search shows they are officially Milton Keynes Dons FC
    Listen to the fan chants next time you watch Hull play

    As for Cardiff, I referred to the change of colour, not of name. They are now nicknamed the bluebirds, and they play in red...

    Wimbledon relocating and switching to MK Dons will take far too much time to write up...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  3. #33
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Yes, you really should.

    Democracy, you know.

    You might not support their view, but you should be willing to die for their right to state it. You propose a more updated version of democracy? If so, why?
    He doesn't state something, he's imposing it on others. It's a classic "freedom to oppress", to claim freedom of speech. Excluding the racism, he's basically doing the abusive husband thing ("I don't want you to see those friends anymore"). That's usually private, but it's not taken kindly normally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Funny, but not as funny as Cliven Bundy's racist tirade. Old white racists are really living it up this month.
    In his case, I think he even sees himself as a good guy.

    It doesn't require that much. First, your position in life is always depending on yourself and your attitude. So blacks having it hard is because of a an evil loser attitude that's been spread around. Second, slavery is like forced working for housing and food and people do that all the time and the work is about the same as farmers has been doing so it's not extremely hard. Give them something to do and that loser attitude will disappear and things will be better.

    Eat those lies and it's basically a form of welfare.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  4. #34
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    In Europe, the sports association levies fines and issues bans, if needed, but a team still has the option of taking it to the courts. A fine and a ban are business as usual in these cases but forcing him to sell his property is a completely different issue.
    Maybe the negroes in the team do not want to be his property anymore?


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  5. #35
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    In Europe, the sports association levies fines and issues bans, if needed, but a team still has the option of taking it to the courts. A fine and a ban are business as usual in these cases but forcing him to sell his property is a completely different issue.
    UEFA decisions are final, and not subject to court rulings. The same is true of the FA's I know about.

    You can appeal a decision, but you do so to the FA's appeal court. Their decision is final.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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  6. #36
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    If I'm reading it right, it is legal in America to tape (and release publicly) phone conversations you're involved in?
    Depends on the state's wiretap laws. Some states are 1-party consent (only one person in the conversation needs to consent to the recording), others all-party (everyone must consent). California is an all-party state, so unless he consented through some strange mistress contract they had, the recording was illegal.

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  7. #37
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    UEFA decisions are final, and not subject to court rulings. The same is true of the FA's I know about.

    You can appeal a decision, but you do so to the FA's appeal court. Their decision is final.
    Hmm, I don't think you're right. I remember this season (or was it a season before) there was UEFA decision not to allow a Turkish team to compete in CL, Besiktas maybe, I'm not sure. Anyway, they took it to a court which overruled UEFA decision.

    I'll look it up.


    EDIT: Found it. Fenerbahce and Besiktas were banned from Europe in June 2013 by UEFA. They appealed to Court of Arbitration for Sport, which overruled UEFA's decision and lifted the ban, at least for Fener
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 04-30-2014 at 16:33.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Hmm, I don't think you're right. I remember this season (or was it a season before) there was UEFA decision not to allow a Turkish team to compete in CL, Besiktas maybe, I'm not sure. Anyway, they took it to a court which overruled UEFA decision.

    I'll look it up.


    EDIT: Found it. Fenerbahce and Besiktas were banned from Europe in June 2013 by UEFA. They appealed to Court of Arbitration for Sport, which overruled UEFA's decision and lifted the ban, at least for Fener
    I'll bold the relevant part:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    UEFA decisions are final, and not subject to court rulings. The same is true of the FA's I know about.

    You can appeal a decision, but you do so to the FA's appeal court. Their decision is final.
    If it's a UEFA decision, you appeal to UEFA's appeal court.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 04-30-2014 at 16:44.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  9. #39
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'll bold the relevant part:



    If it's a UEFA decision, you appeal to UEFA's appeal court.
    But CAS and UEFA are separate entities, and, at least according to wiki, you can appeal a CAS decision to Supreme Federal Court of Switzerland.

  10. #40
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    But CAS and UEFA are separate entities, and, at least according to wiki, you can appeal a CAS decision to Supreme Federal Court of Switzerland.
    CAS is a joint venture for many sports associations, created by the Olympic committee. Most of what they handle are drugs, but they occasionally do other cases(like Fenerbache).

    The chances of overturning a CAS ruling is comparable to finding extraterrestrial life. The only involvement of national courts in CAS dealings is when the guilty party has tried to challenge the jurisdiction of CAS. This has not been successful.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 04-30-2014 at 17:04.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  11. #41
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    CAS is a joint venture for many sports associations, created by the Olympic committee. Most of what they handle are drugs, but they occasionally do other cases(like Fenerbache).

    The chances of overturning a CAS ruling is comparable to finding extraterrestrial life. The only involvement of national courts in CAS dealings is when the guilty party has tried to challenge the jurisdiction of CAS. This has not been successful.
    Still, it proves that UEFA decisions aren't final as you've said, you can take your case to a court that's outside UEFA, and afterwards, you can appeal to a civilian court. So, I'm right and you're wrong. Repent now and I won't make too many jokes about your total lack of understanding of the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Its really not his property is the point. NBA "owners" are more like managers, and the NBA as a whole remains the most powerful controlling interest in the team regardless of which old white dude is currently profiting from ticket sales. Hell, they even share a stadium with the Lakers. Baseball is the only major American sport where teams are owned in the true sense, and even then its a league-first mentality on most issues.
    If you know of an online source that delves deeper into the subject, I'd like to read more about it.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 04-30-2014 at 17:20.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Still, it proves that UEFA decisions aren't final as you've said, you can take your case to a court that's outside UEFA, and afterwards, you can appeal to a civilian court. So, I'm right and you're wrong. Repent now and I won't make too many jokes about your total lack of understanding of the subject.
    The court is UEFA's court for all intents and purposes, it's just that it's shared with other sports organizations. It's artificially separated from the IOC, but that doesn't make them more independent than the FA court(which is also 'independent' and occasionally overrules the FA).

    The opportunity of a civilian court to overrule CAS is non-existent in practice, unless the CAS has bungled into areas under the jurisdiction of said civilian court. Like if they made a guilty verdict in the blade runner case, for example...


    And I'll never repent to a self-proclaimed nazi.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  13. #43
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    SO far, I am with Strike on this one.


    The league commissioner has the right to fine him for statements that reflect poorly on the NBA and to ban him from NBA events and activities. This is all part of the ownership agreement contract he signed. Additionally, there is a clause that allows for the forcible sale of the team against Sterling's wishes provided that 3/4 of the other team owners agree to such a sale being forced. Again, all part of the contract of ownership he signed.

    If you don't want to abide by those rules of ownership, create your own league....it has been done before.

    What Sterling did is more or less akin to a homeowner falling afoul of her homeowner association and having the home sold against her wishes to pay for outstanding fines and judgments. If you think such things are anathema (and many do) then DO NOT SIGN THE CONTRACT.


    That having been said there are other questions.

    Why did the NBA let him buy a team? It is not as though this fellow had a reputation for Pollyanna behavior -- especially as regards race relations -- prior to owning the Clippers. It does not speak well of the cadre of owners, now does it? I have heard that there are behaviors that whores will refuse even if offered a bonus...perhaps no such scruples exist among the NBA owners group....

    Why is the NBA letting their dog be wagged by such a clear set-up job? Or were some of them complicit in it? The chica at the center of the controversy seems to have an interesting network of connections...
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 04-30-2014 at 17:41.
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  14. #44
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    If you don't want to abide by those rules of ownership, create your own league....it has been done before.
    I've got just the league for him.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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  15. #45
    Colonel In Chief Member PROVOST's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    LOL @ the appeal to "democracy" - the Greek version with the slaves? Or one of the other iterations where there's lip service given to it but the true power always rests with a select few?

    USA is not a Democracy,it's a Republic.

    As for this old white fool - he by owning a team has agreed to abide by and be held to the code of conduct the NBA have in place,as do most all sporting codes and other associations.

    So his "rights" he allowed to be denigrated when he wanted to make the $$ and be in the NBA as an owner.
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  16. #46
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Why is the NBA letting their dog be wagged by such a clear set-up job? Or were some of them complicit in it? The chica at the center of the controversy seems to have an interesting network of connections...
    Apparently Sterling did know he was being recorded (all of their conversations were archived). She is being sued by his wife since the sugar-daddy money he gave her came from funds that weren't strictly his to do whatever he wanted with. She could have released the tape, or someone in the courthouse might have leaked it if it was part of the lawsuit evidence. TMZ probably has more spies in the LA courthouse than Scientology.
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  17. #47
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Its really not his property is the point. NBA "owners" are more like managers, and the NBA as a whole remains the most powerful controlling interest in the team regardless of which old white dude is currently profiting from ticket sales. Hell, they even share a stadium with the Lakers. Baseball is the only major American sport where teams are owned in the true sense, and even then its a league-first mentality on most issues.
    Yup. And MLB did the same exact thing a long time ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_Schott

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  18. #48
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    I still suspect it was a put up job -- not that this guy wasn't a debacle waiting to happen, he most certainly was. It may even have been morally correct to set him up for a fall and remove the excresence, but that is another question.
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  19. #49
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    The court is UEFA's court for all intents and purposes, it's just that it's shared with other sports organizations. It's artificially separated from the IOC, but that doesn't make them more independent than the FA court(which is also 'independent' and occasionally overrules the FA).

    The opportunity of a civilian court to overrule CAS is non-existent in practice, unless the CAS has bungled into areas under the jurisdiction of said civilian court. Like if they made a guilty verdict in the blade runner case, for example...
    Are you stating that the UEFA is above the sovereignty of nations and their justice system?
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  20. #50

    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    I understand that everything that is happening to Sterling is by the book since he did sign the contract with the NBA allowing them to take away his team if they choose. I just think there is more to be said about whether or not contracts that dictate property rights based on....reputation are 1. smart and 2. easily abused and 3. moral.

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  21. #51
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    I doubt you could get 3/4 of the owners to agree to a sale on the prop 8 issue -- but I take your point.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  22. #52
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Are you stating that the UEFA is above the sovereignty of nations and their justice system?
    I'm saying that UEFA is outside it.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  23. #53
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    I'm not even sure you can get 3/4 of the owners to vote to make this guy sell. Certainly not without the pressure put on the NBA by the players, the public, and the media--those are the forces driving this whole thing, though it is certainly a reaction to Sterling's dumb comments. If they vote to expel this guy, my suspicion is that it will be a short amount of time before the next big revelation, fanning the flames of public opinion and forcing the issue on other people with other reactionary views. These old white dudes aren't hard to find dirt on.
    The players are the key factor in this situation and, in the end, what has driven all that has happened and all that will happen. Three-quarters of the players in the NBA come from the group that Sterling chose to express his bigotry about. Apparently both the Clippers and the Warriors would have boycotted their playoff game if they had been dissatisfied with the NBA's response. It seems very likely that the rest of the league would have followed suit shortly thereafter. A total shutdown of the NBA during the playoffs would have had massive financial repercussions for everyone involved. The players are very, very powerful when they choose to act in unison.

    I think the key difference between this situation and a lot of others is simply that the racial makeup of the NBA is such that the players were almost guaranteed to be willing to go to extreme measures to get what they wanted. I don't think the same could be said for gay rights issues, or indeed for many other controversial topics. The simple fact is that this guy chose to speak out about a form of bigotry that even the most politically conservative people in the country find outright abhorrent... and he did it in an industry that absolutely depends on the support of the people he was expressing bigotry towards. In short, this is a perfect storm that is not likely to repeat even with other variations on the same theme.

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  24. #54
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'm saying that UEFA is outside it.
    I think you will find that if push comes to shove a national court can overrule a UEFA decision.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    I think you will find that if push comes to shove a national court can overrule a UEFA decision.
    Only to the extent that a court can demand company A to buy supplies from company B.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  26. #56
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    How would UEFA legally enforce any rulings?

    Contracts, taxes, OH&S etc
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  27. #57
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    How would UEFA legally enforce any rulings?

    Contracts, taxes, OH&S etc
    By refusing to allow teams and/or players to play in their leagues. A court cannot order them to let teams or players play in a league any more than a court can order a company to buy stuff from another company.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  28. #58
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    I think you will find that is false. If a league bans the players based on race I bet the courts could force a change.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  29. #59
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    I think you will find that is false. If a league bans the players based on race I bet the courts could force a change.
    ....but they don't, so your point is moot.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  30. #60
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don Sterling...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    ....but they don't, so your point is moot.
    It's not moot.

    If there are no murders in a community for some time, would we say police there wouldn't investigate murders, or a court wouldn't prosecute the murderers?

    UEFA (and other sport organization) rules are in accordance with civilian legislation, so there is rarely, if ever, need for civilian courts to intervene, but if they did, UEFA, FIFA and every other sport organization would have to obey that.

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