Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Sarmatian]

But as Sarmatian (who you seem to agree with on most occasions) claims, the fact is that 65 million French citizens voted a nazi into the second round of presidential election. Period. According to him, the turnover, the number of votes that each candidate received, the margin between them don't matter. Go ahead and argue with him.

If you're being rude, at least don't twist my words. I've never said margins don't matter, I've said that 50% + 1 vote is enough to form a government in a democratic political system.

I understand this is a sensitive topic for you, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't approach the discussion in a civilised manner. Attack the arguments, not the person.

[Sir Moody]

A lot of French did vote for the FN, but at the Parliamentary elections they had no seats. So using the figures you gave (your Nazi having only 10 % of the vote –which, incidentally acknowledges my mistake) so less than in France, I turned it in question why do you have a need on them in your executive.

Because excluding them may cause more violence - and the Ukrainian authorities are already stretched thin...

While included they have nothing to gain from violence and everything to lose (since they now have a veneer of legitimacy).

If they were excluded then they may go back to storming Government buildings and make the situation even worse...

[Brenus]

“Because excluding them may cause more violence - and the Ukrainian authorities are already stretched thin...
While included they have nothing to gain from violence and everything to lose (since they now have a veneer of legitimacy).
If they were excluded then they may go back to storming Government buildings and make the situation even worse...”
Interesting point of view. Does it make the fear of the Russian Minorities more substantial?

[Myth]

From a chat conversation with a girl from Ukraine. I know her from way back.

Me: Are you affected by the civil war?

Her: Yes... Lust week next to me around 200 m someone was shooting ...

Her: In town next to mine is real war, people die everyday... Government allowed this... They killing women and children and tells all world that is terrorists

[Gilrandir]

“You use the same vocabulary (agenda, intervention, even Gilrandir, Gilrandir's figures”: Yes I do. In my opinion, you have all this. The figures are given by you, so I don’t see your point of contend here. As you are my opponent in this debate, I of course considered to your points and of course I will use them in my way.
I never attack you as a person, putting your intellectual or others capacities in doubts, never mocked you.

Ok, you forced me to confess: I also have a degree, it is PhD in linguistics. Unlike you, I have never flaunted it (until now to prove my point). I have been teaching the stylistics of English for quite a while, I have been a research advisor of quite a number of students' papers so I know mocking for what it is. In stylistics it is called irony, an expressive means which under a word with positive (or neutral) connotation - "friend" - a negative attitude is concealed. I don't want to lecture you on other stylistic devices you use, but I must congratulate you on the subtle and workmanlike way you do this.
On a second thought: I think I haven't proved anything since you don't believe me anyway so you wouldn't believe I have a degree either.

“the fact is that 65 million French citizens voted a nazi into the second round of presidential election”: Right. I will explain you the twist I used: You are right on one point (except it not 65 millions of French voters, that would be the entire French Population, so Le Pen would have been elected with 100 % of the vote and it was the 1st round, so he got access to the 2nd round, where he was crushed, defeat confirmed in the next elections for Parliament: This is this kind of mistakes you have to avoid because whoever is your opponent will rush on them).

I am aware that the number of voters is less then the whole populace of France. It was not a mistake but a deliberate resorting to Sarmatian's arguments. Look at the posts below. Now the whole population of Ukraine is about 45 million. I don't believe that such an astute person as Sarmatian seems to be can fail to know it. So he deliberately used the enlarged figures to give more weight to his stance.

If you're being rude, at least don't twist my words. I've never said margins don't matter, I've said that 50% + 1 vote is enough to form a government in a democratic political system.

Just compare.

Even if the margin was one single vote, he was still democratically elected by 50 million Ukrainians. That doesn't mean that 50 million of Ukrainians voted for him, it means they were all allowed to cast their vote and after all those that wished to, did, he was the one they elected. Democracy 101.

[Gilrandir]

Personal attacks are just smoke screen when there is no more else to answer.
I don't mind that much. It is a little bit hurting when someone question my Scholarship and degree, and it is not the first time that it happened. Our Kurdish Friend did the same.

You hate nazis so much but you sport the same attitude:
I don't know who is the person you mention but I guess he is one of the forumers whose "name" you are sure to know. Yet you don't mention the "name", you choose to single him out on the ground of his nationality. What if I speaking of, say, Zineddine Zidane called him "our Arab friend"? Or what would you say of a person who speaks of a common aquaintance calling him "our jewish friend" or "our black friend"?

[Sir Moody]

Interesting point of view. Does it make the fear of the Russian Minorities more substantial?

possible - however this "fear" is largely manufactured - there have been no reports of Russian Minorities being harassed in Western Ukraine and for all there bluster the Neo-Nazis seem quite complacent...

In truth the current turn of events would have happened even if the Neo-Nazis were excluded from the process of selecting a new President - the East supported the ousted President and the Neo-Nazis are merely a convenient excuse to "protest" - had they been excluded another excuse would have been found.

[Gilrandir]

Strelkov addressed the people of Donbas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIHdrSm6jrU
In his speech he sounded exasperated and rather distraught. He upbraids the locals for not being ready to stand by him and "protect their region". He says that he was promised and hoped for a much greater support. He is dissatisfied with the fact that the weapons that were freely distributed after capturing police stations eventually found their way into the hands of criminals. If men of Donbas are not ready to fight he promises to arm women.
Generally, I believe the table has turned. First of all, there is a rift between the most prominent groups of separatists: the Horlivka one and the Slovyansk one. Ponomarev is openly dissatisfied with DPR and promised to go to Donetsk and "deal with DPR".
Other minor groups had never seen eye to eye with each other even a month ago and now they are preoccupied with the division of power (and loot).
Secondly (and more importantly), Akhmetov openly declared his support for the integrity of Ukraine and called the inhabitants of Donbas to get rid of DPR. In response DPR announced nationalisation of Akhmetov's property in Donbas. It was the worst and (I think) fatal mistake of DPR. The so-called minister of fuel and energetics of DPR resigned disagreeing with the decision.There can be different explanations on the reasons of Akhmetov's behavior, but his declaration seemed to enhearten the pro-Ukrainian part of Donbas who didn't like what was going on but were mostly afraid to protest. Not all of them were, though.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/20...844/?attempt=1
In the video two women in Kramatorsk make a van with armed separatists leave the neighborhood.

[Husar]

Why do I always have to think of Strelok when I read Strelkov?

[Brenus]

“I don't know who is the person you mention but I guess he is one of the forumers whose "name" you are sure to know.” Err, the fact is his name (forum one) is KurdishSpartakus helps.

I know you will hate it but did Tourtchinov asked the ban of the Communist Part under the pretext that a lot of Communists are engaged with the Separatists (according to him)? This comes after he proposed to forbid the Communist Representative Piotr Symonenko to talk to the Ukrainian Parliament.
Hmm, where are the people comparing Putin to Hitler? This reminds a lot of the Reichstag Crisis and the ban on the German Communist Party and A. Hitler coup d’état. Note: Tourtchinov declared the Communist Party acted “frankly unconstitutional”.
Is it the same constitution that allowed an Elected President to be ousted by force and storming official buildings (i.e. Parliament), or it is a New Constitution I didn’t heard about?
And this comes for someone who has no democratic mandate…

“First of all, there is a rift between the most prominent groups of separatists: the Horlivka one and the Slovyansk one. Ponomarev is openly dissatisfied with DPR and promised to go to Donetsk and "deal with DPR".
Otter minor groups had never seen eye to eye with each other even a month ago and now they are preoccupied with the division of power (and loot).”
How is it possible? Putin (the guy who organised everything) allows it? No more land grabbing, no more Russian tanks heating up, ready to cross the borders?

“the East supported the ousted President and the Neo-Nazis are merely a convenient excuse to "protest" - had they been excluded another excuse would have been found.” Why would they need a new excuse? The President they elected was evicted by force by a mob; they didn’t need a Nazi excuse. They could have disputed the legitimacy of the new Executive, and started the protest.
So, perhaps the Nazi fear was exploited, but it was there to be exploited.

"Unlike you, I have never flaunted it" "You hate nazis so much but you sport (read support, I suppose) the same attitude": There you go again...

[Sarmatian]

Just compare.

1) 50 million is a ball park number. I didn't believe I had to cite exact census number, but ok. I was wrong. Population of Ukraine is 44,573,205. So, Yanukovich was democratically elected by 44,573,205 Ukrainians. It is a figure of speech. It means that all Ukrainians eligible to vote, had their chance to cast their votes in support of the candidate of their choosing. Majority of those who did choose to vote chose Yanukovich. Which part you don't understand?

2) Margins matter but not in the sense you're trying to twist them. A candidate with 50% +1 vote is democratically elected just as a candidate with 80% vote is.

3) Forcibly removing a democratically elected politician(s) is a coup or a putsch or a revolution. It doesn't matter if he was voted in with 50%+1 votes or 80% vote.

What are margins telling us is that Ukraine is a deeply divided country internally and under immense pressure externally, and that special care and attention should be taken not to have the entire country fall apart. Special care does not include forceful removal of elected politicians. Had you waited 6 months or so, you wouldn't have been in this mess.

Instead of trying to place the blame on external factors, which played a role definitely, you (as in Ukrainians) should look closer first. You are guilty of putting yourself in a situation where they could get involved in a way they did. Your revolutionary leaders took a gamble and lost. Now the entire country is paying the price. Not only that, but they are, in an ultimate example of Soviet style leadership, refusing to face the consequences of their actions and are trying to obfuscate the situation to avoid having to, ignoring the fact that the country is inching closer to the abyss while they don't have the cojones to change the direction.

[Gilrandir]

“First of all, there is a rift between the most prominent groups of separatists: the Horlivka one and the Slovyansk one. Ponomarev is openly dissatisfied with DPR and promised to go to Donetsk and "deal with DPR".
Otter minor groups had never seen eye to eye with each other even a month ago and now they are preoccupied with the division of power (and loot).”
How is it possible? Putin (the guy who organised everything) allows it? No more land grabbing, no more Russian tanks heating up, ready to cross the borders?

Putin was instrumental in fomenting things. As well as Akhmetov was responsible for acquiesing. But the situation has changed, as I have remarked. Or rather it got out of hand of Putin, Akhmetov or anyone else (including Strelkov, Ponomarev, Gubarev and Pushilin). No one is having it going the way they wanted it to. Putin didn't get the fire spreading all over the south east so he can't upset the elections on a major scale (unless he invades which, according to most estimations, is not an impossible option for him). Thus he has to revise his tactics and his lukewarm assessment of the "referendum" results shows it. He doesn't need Donbas alone, needy and much donated. But he is biding his time, we will hear from him again, I'm sure. Akhmetov has changed his position as well. I can only speculate on the reasons:
1) he was promised something by the current government (like not to interfere into his domain after the elections);
2) he felt his interests and his business threatened by DPR;
3) he fell out with DPR leaders;
4) all or some of the above taken together.
And finally, the separatists themselves: they don't know what to do with the "independence" they declared without any support from the Kremlin, they can't prevent marauding and havoc they caused in the region, they can't control criminals they armed.
All of this is at work now, no one knows how it will change even in a day or two.

"Unlike you, I have never flaunted it" "You hate nazis so much but you sport (read support, I suppose) the same attitude": There you go again...

There you go again: supposing what wasn't written and meant.

Why do I always have to think of Strelok when I read Strelkov?

Strelok is his call signal, an alias that was used in intercepted communications so people supposed his real name to be Strelkov. But his real real name is Girkin, he was one of Aksyonov's aides and was supposed to report to him in the said intercepted call on the results of his actions. Before 2014 he was in and out of the Crimea and South-eastern Ukraine and in January 2014 he accompanied the gifts of the magi brought to the Crimea from Greece. This, I believe, points to the involvement of Patriarch Kiril into the situation. More on Aksyonov in
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-126149144.html

1) 50 million is a ball park number. I didn't believe I had to cite exact census number, but ok. I was wrong. Population of Ukraine is 44,573,205. So, Yanukovich was democratically elected by 44,573,205 Ukrainians. It is a figure of speech. It means that all Ukrainians eligible to vote, had their chance to cast their votes in support of the candidate of their choosing. Majority of those who did choose to vote chose Yanukovich. Which part you don't understand?

I understand every word of it and agree with everything (except that the number of voters is less than the total population). But you should try to make Brenus see it, not me, I got all the figures of speech right.

2) Margins matter but not in the sense you're trying to twist them. A candidate with 50% +1 vote is democratically elected just as a candidate with 80% vote is.

Now you claim that margins do matter. The results of 2010 elections (second round): Yanukovych 48.95%, Tymoshenko 45.47%, support neither candidate 4.36%. Now where is 50%+1 vote you are talking about?

[Brenus]

Thread is dead. Bye, have fun

[Sarmatian]

Now you claim that margins do matter. The results of 2010 elections (second round): Yanukovych 48.95%, Tymoshenko 45.47%, support neither candidate 4.36%. Now where is 50%+1 vote you are talking about?

There are two possibilities at this point - either you really don't understand or you are playing dumb. I'm not sure which I prefer.

I echo Brenus' sentiment. Nothing interesting here anymore. Maybe I'll return if something triggers a meaningful discussion once again. Until then, bye bye.

[Strike For The South]

Prince Charles <3

[Husar]

Strelok is his call signal, an alias that was used in intercepted communications so people supposed his real name to be Strelkov. But his real real name is Girkin, he was one of Aksyonov's aides and was supposed to report to him in the said intercepted call on the results of his actions. Before 2014 he was in and out of the Crimea and South-eastern Ukraine and in January 2014 he accompanied the gifts of the magi brought to the Crimea from Greece. This, I believe, points to the involvement of Patriarch Kiril into the situation. More on Aksyonov in
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-126149144.html

I don't think that was it...

[Viking]

Some interesting new footage has emerged that is supposed to be from the Donetsk region. A bunch of very professionally-looking soldiers (those with helmets) among the separatists:



They are from this video. Be aware that there is some graphic stuff with a slaughtered neo-nazi in the first 17 seconds of the video.

[Husar]

And where does it say it's not faked like the video with the "russian officer" who turned out to be a ukrainian mafia guy?

On Wednesday the local radio interviewed a reporter who is currently in Ukraine for about an hour. He said he doesn't trust anything he didn't see himself anymore because this is an unprecedented information war in which both Russia and Ukraine are making stuff up left and right. Used to be that reporting was based largely on eyewitnesses and other interviews, but in this conflict you can apparently not trust anyone on either side.

[Viking]

And where does it say it's not faked like the video with the "russian officer" who turned out to be a ukrainian mafia guy?

On Wednesday the local radio interviewed a reporter who is currently in Ukraine for about an hour. He said he doesn't trust anything he didn't see himself anymore because this is an unprecedented information war in which both Russia and Ukraine are making stuff up left and right. Used to be that reporting was based largely on eyewitnesses and other interviews, but in this conflict you can apparently not trust anyone on either side.

In theory, you cannot trust anything anywhere in the world that you haven't seen yourself. You can't even trust what you see, because you can't know if it's been staged or manipulated.

There's a big difference between

a) a video that was staged; complete with actors and/or CGI
b) a video that is accompanied with an incorrect narrative

It's the first category that is truly dangerous because it is complete fiction; but it is not likely to be a common one since it takes a lot of effort, skill and resources in order to pull off something like that convincingly for most types of videos. The second category is not so dangerous because it can be avoided by making your own careful, rigorous interpretations rather than assuming that the one you are presented with is the correct one.

The video you refer to seems belong firmly in category b; and I never assumed that its narrative was correct. The more special the claim, the better the evidence needs to be to back it up. As long as necessary evidence is missing, don't jump to conclusions - it's not harder than that.

I do a lot of crosschecking; and indeed, since I posted the video, I have been able to more or less verify its authenticity indirectly.

Al Jazeera:

Putin's remarks came on a day at least eight people were killed in fighting in the village of Karlivka, near Ukraine's eastern hub of Donetsk, Al Jazeera's John Wendle reported from the scene.

Four of the dead appeared to be members of the self-styled Vostok Battalion while one man with a swastika tattoo seemed to have fought for the Donbas Battalion.

BBC photo:

[Husar]

I was saying your video may be in category a. As for the quote, what exactly does it verify about the video?

And the word "unprecedented" wasn't there by accident.

[Viking]

I was saying your video may be in category a. As for the quote, what exactly does it verify about the video?

And the word "unprecedented" wasn't there by accident.

Then show us the evidence you got for staged high-quality videos.

As for the quote, what exactly does it verify about the video?

A guy with a swastika was killed in the same village that the video was shot in, on the same day the video was uploaded and the location shown in the video is confirmed by the BBC as relevant for the incident.

[Husar]

Then show us the evidence you got for staged high-quality videos.

What are you talking about?

A guy with a swastika was killed in the same village that the video was shot in, on the same day the video was uploaded and the location shown in the video is confirmed by the BBC as relevant for the incident.

Okay.
And this proves that the Indian government sent hindu killer squads or just that all pro-russians are russian soldier nazis who want to help Putin bring back the USSR?
What exactly is the point od showing us these "A bunch of very professionally-looking soldiers (those with helmets) among the separatists"? There were even Ukrainian soldiers who switched sides. Why did you say it is interesting? I found the video rather boring, but didn't watch the part you warned us of.

[Viking]

What are you talking about?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You said the video could be staged.

What exactly is the point od showing us these "A bunch of very professionally-looking soldiers (those with helmets) among the separatists"? There were even Ukrainian soldiers who switched sides. Why did you say it is interesting? I found the video rather boring, but didn't watch the part you warned us of.

I don't recall seeing professionally-looking soldiers among the separatists before; at least not in great numbers.

[Husar]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You said the video could be staged.

I wouldn't say could if I had evidence, what's not to understand?
And it's not an extraordinary claim given that I earlier cited a newspaper report that mentioned at least one staged video plus a radio reporter who said there are a lot of fake messages and claims coming from both sides of the conflict.

I don't recall seeing professionally-looking soldiers among the separatists before; at least not in great numbers.

There are three people with helmets in your video, does that make great numbers?

[Viking]

I wouldn't say could if I had evidence, what's not to understand?

The invasion of Iraq could have been staged and Saddam Hussein is still in control of the country. Were you there to witness any of it?

And don't ask me for evidence supporting that it's staged; I'm just suggesting that it could be staged.

And it's not an extraordinary claim given that I earlier cited a newspaper report that mentioned at least one staged video plus a radio reporter who said there are a lot of fake messages and claims coming from both sides of the conflict.

That's some... seriously convincing stuff you got there. If you can link that in a convincing and relevant way to the video I posted, I'll make sure you'll get the next Nobel Peace Prize.

Was Igor Besler's video staged? That would need some evidence. According to RT, he was merely an imposter; not taking part in a conspiracy to create a fake video.

There are three people with helmets in your video, does that make great numbers?

The guys with helmets and/or black vests. They stand out. The BBC pic changes my assessments a bit; but they still seem more well-equipped than many separatists seen thus far. Those individuals look less ragtag.

[Husar]

The invasion of Iraq could have been staged and Saddam Hussein is still in control of the country. Were you there to witness any of it?

And don't ask me for evidence supporting that it's staged; I'm just suggesting that it could be staged.

That's some... seriously convincing stuff you got there. If you can link that in a convincing and relevant way to the video I posted, I'll make sure you'll get the next Nobel Peace Prize.

Was Igor Besler's video staged? That would need some evidence. According to RT, he was merely an imposter; not taking part in a conspiracy to create a fake video.

How about you provide some evidence that whatever you're claiming is the case? Of course that would require to stop twisting my words to come up with strawmen arguments that only distract from what you originally tried to say. Unless you're just claiming that guys with helmets are sitting on grass looking good.
Al Jazeera seems to have more on your incident: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...296448516.html

"What is this? This checkpoint was peaceful. They didn't bother us. Why did they attack it?" said a villager looking at the aftermath. "This is madness. There can be no peace here. I will join the Vostok Battalion now."

Quite obviously the Donbass guys are disturbing the peace in Eastern Ukraine, is that what you're saying?

The guys with helmets and/or black vests. They stand out. The BBC pic changes my assessments a bit; but they still seem more well-equipped than many separatists seen thus far. Those individuals look less ragtag.

We've had those well-equipped militias from Russia before, they were there because their local brothers invited them. If America can have organized militias, why can't Russia or Ukraine have them? There are enough oligarchs to fund them. All I see are racist stereotypes that say people in Russia and Ukraine have to look dirty or they are Kremlin-controlled.

[Viking]

How about you provide some evidence that whatever you're claiming is the case? Of course that would require to stop twisting my words to come up with strawmen arguments that only distract from what you originally tried to say. Unless you're just claiming that guys with helmets are sitting on grass looking good.
Al Jazeera seems to have more on your incident: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...296448516.html



Quite obviously the Donbass guys are disturbing the peace in Eastern Ukraine, is that what you're saying?

I made an observation more than I made any claim. I said that the footage was interesting, and that's what I meant.

We've had those well-equipped militias from Russia before, they were there because their local brothers invited them. If America can have organized militias, why can't Russia or Ukraine have them? There are enough oligarchs to fund them. All I see are racist stereotypes that say people in Russia and Ukraine have to look dirty or they are Kremlin-controlled.

It looks like that there has been a development in the separatists' equipment.



-----

Another observation:

A journalist and a photographer claim that there are Ossetians fighting for the separatists:

Julia Ioffe

There are guys from Ossetia here in the Vostok batallion.

Max Avdeev:

За батальон ополчения Восток в Донецке воюют в том числе опытные осетины, они привезли гуманитарную помощь и их попросили остаться помощь.

bing translation: The militia battalion of the East in fighting including experienced Ossetians, they brought humanitarian aid and they were asked to stay.

[Gilrandir]

One more comparison to expose Sarmatian's consistency and politeness:

If you're being rude, at least don't twist my words. Attack the arguments, not the person.

There are two possibilities at this point - either you really don't understand or you are playing dumb. I'm not sure which I prefer.

@ Tiaexz: ??????

[Sarmatian]

@Tiaexz

There you go. There's no need, though. Tiaexz reads the thread, nothing escapes his watchful gaze.

[Gilrandir]

They are from this video. Be aware that there is some graphic stuff with a slaughtered neo-nazi in the first 17 seconds of the video.

Some people in the video speak Russian with a pronounced Caucasian accent: they are either Chechens or Ossetians.