What's the point in elite units?

[Ludens]

Peltastai Makedonikoi aren't upgraded Peltasts. The unit was originally concepted as assault troopers: the ones that, during a siege assault, would be the first into the breach.

And that's really the main use for elite units: for critical positions on the battlefield, where a bit more armour and better morale can make a huge difference. The vanguard in a siege battle is most obvious example, but holding a critical flank would count as well. If you lose the flanks, the battleline folds, so putting your best phalangites there could mean the difference between victory and defeat in real life.

However, in EB such conditions don't happen very often, for two reason. Firstly, you have far more control, and far more situational awareness, than a real-life general did. As a rule, you can prevent or counter flanking threats as they occur. And secondly, such threats don't occur very often, because the A.I. simply isn't that good.

[vartan]

In other words, EB's competence surpasses its intended performance due to the limited engine. You can always try the elites out in an online battle and see how you fare.

[athanaric]

Elites look awesome and you don't have to micromanage them as much on the battlefield as other units (because they are more difficult to kill or rout). I like to have a few elite units in every major army for these (and other, such as historical accuracy) reasons.

Also, this:

In other words, EB's competence surpasses its intended performance due to the limited engine. You can always try the elites out in an online battle and see how you fare.

I, too, feel that it's more of an issue of engine limitations. At least, EB offers a better solution than the vanilla TW games where elites can just walk over any other unit.

[QuintusSertorius]

Peltastai Makedonikoi aren't upgraded Peltasts. The unit was originally concepted as assault troopers: the ones that, during a siege assault, would be the first into the breach.

And that's really the main use for elite units: for critical positions on the battlefield, where a bit more armour and better morale can make a huge difference. The vanguard in a siege battle is most obvious example, but holding a critical flank would count as well. If you lose the flanks, the battleline folds, so putting your best phalangites there could mean the difference between victory and defeat in real life.

However, in EB such conditions don't happen very often, for two reason. Firstly, you have far more control, and far more situational awareness, than a real-life general did. As a rule, you can prevent or counter flanking threats as they occur. And secondly, such threats don't occur very often, because the A.I. simply isn't that good.

I'm well aware Peltastai Makedonikoi aren't skirmishers, but as armoured, sword-armed infantry they perform the same role as infantry-flankers. They can't do anti-cavalry because of the lack of spears.

But I agree, assault infantry isn't really a role the RTW engine allows a use for.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

However, in EB such conditions don't happen very often, for two reason. Firstly, you have far more control, and far more situational awareness, than a real-life general did. As a rule, you can prevent or counter flanking threats as they occur. And secondly, such threats don't occur very often, because the A.I. simply isn't that good.

Good points - but here's a partial solution:

If you want to play hardcore EB, don't play on VH Battle difficulty level. Just go into the camera settings option and tick the general camera option. (And play on Huge unit settings).

It's wicked, because you can't move the camera view away from the immediate vicinity of your general, which makes it really hard to see what's going on over the battlefield. When the AI flanks you, often you won't see it until the attack hits. Sometimes not even then, until you notice a unit taking heavy losses! And you'll need to have your general running from one flank to another so you can see what's happening, and that will often entail a delay before you can respond to an enemy attack. If your general is on foot, then boy, you're going to have real problems with viewing the entire battlefield - you'll often have to take a guess at what forces the enemy is attacking with, throw in a unit or two of your own to stop them (if you have any reserves), and hope for the best.

Assaulting large cities becomes a lot more difficult as with your general sat safely outside the walls, you will have only a rough idea about how the street fighting is going inside the town, and you won't be able to see clearly how the streets are laid out, so the chances of you sending a unit down the wrong street are quite high. Coordinating attacks inside the town becomes all but impossible until your general goes in himself to organise things, but that could result in him being killed like Pyrrhus in Argos!

[The Stranger]

some elites are worth it, some arent.

mainly they are worth their weight in gold when pinning down the enemy to a certain spot. 2 elite units can tie down up to 15+ levy units for a long time if they dont get flanked. on huge settings some elite are extremely cost effective in some situations due to their high morale and their high armour. as long as they dont get flanked they will hold for a long time. just dont lose ur general :P

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053422110

[Alcibiade]

some elites are worth it, some arent. [/url]

Yes, and the Hypapistaie in my memory were impresively efficient; I can't remind their name as it was some years ago, but I remember I used their Baktrian equivalent with much success in a sp campaign.

But the elite unit who totally disapointed (still in sp campaign) is the epilektoi hoplitai. I remember how I progressively got doubts about their efficiency until I did some tests using custom battles, and saw how they were systematically raped by this Illyrian basic unit (the one with clubs).

[The Stranger]

one of the things we found out back then is that elite units get more efficient on bigger settings. because it takes much longer, ratio wise, for them to rout.

[QuintusSertorius]

one of the things we found out back then is that elite units get more efficient on bigger settings. because it takes much longer, ratio wise, for them to rout.

I only play on Huge; I've never found any to be worthwhile.

[Thoras]

I only play on Huge; I've never found any to be worthwhile.

They stay and hold far longer without routing,take less casulites and kill more and faster.They better at flanking.

[The Stranger]

I only play on Huge; I've never found any to be worthwhile.

well as i tested and posted in that thread i linked, the TAB or their spanish/irish equivalent can hold their own against almost 3x their cost in levy units. if thats not worthwhile, then I dont know... 1 unit can tie down 20 haploi, which are arguably one of the better levy units as well.