Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
So you think he would actually attack NATO?Originally Posted by Gilrandir
China is a bit too big and the Middle East too far away. Who else would we care about now that our sweatshops and our oil rigs are out of the question?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
I say Russia can have Ukraine and Belarus if they evacuate Kaliningrad and give over the land to the sole ownership of the European Union.
Then the new EU capital province of Euro-Prussia can become a super-industrial state populated by hardcore unionists.
By 2050, the matter will be simple: integrate into a federalized European Union, or fight for your independence. Fighting alone would be impossible, so the only way to defeat the European Union would be to become client state of the US - or form an EU 2.0. Either way, we come that much closer to OWG.
...
'Scuse me, too much of the product again...
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
I know that time is relative, but hasn't it been 70 years in Ukraine also?
Anyway, past repressions are not a justification for mass-murdering civilians.
When you have an independent nation state and some groups think that the dominant ethnic group in that country isn't "free" (or free enough), that's when you should start suspecting they have strong nazi/fascist tendencies.
And, in classic nazi/fascist fashion, they aren't thinking of actually building a nation, they want to clean it. And, of course, there's the obligatory harkening back to the glory days when One Leader led a strongly motivated National Force against all enemies.
It's not even original.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
“Having these considerations in mind and trying to put oneself in his place makes me wish to forgive such a man defending his native land against all odds.” And killing Jews was helping in doing what? No, sorry, this man was and is still and for ever a war criminal and scum.
What pipelines do you mean? The South Stream was suspended indefinitely, any others are still only nascent projects so far from implementation, that it is precarious to speak of them being "secured".
Apparently, I am not the only one with this idea:
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...vals-pipelines
http://qha.com.ua/crimean-enterprise...-119164en.html
Plus a bonus
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/wo...-reserves.html
“And you call it a strategic victory?” Yeap, considering without it Russia would have NATO’s troops directly at one very long border more. And Ukraine have no chance to be part of NATO until peace is restored, and that is why Putin doesn’t push for, how you called it, Novorussia? What he needs is 2 or 3 “Russian” provinces with large autonomy (so my reference as Bosnianisation) that can block any attempt by the Ukrainian Government to join NATO. Is this so difficult to understand?
“Somehow, they have been doing fine without Russia so far” Really? Why Assad wasn’t bombed last year? Ah, yeah, Russia did oppose… As you said, US&EU manage very well the Iranian Nuclear Program with Russia… Oh no, they didn’t. They asked Russia for help…
“So this "badly need" is only your wishful thinking.” Unfortunately not, it is just a cold assessment of real politic, not distorted by nationalism and disillusion.
“Who knows, perhaps some elections later we will witness the greatest nightmare of Brenus come true.” You might be right, even if the splitting between the daughter and her father might have an impact on this.
I can see that the prospect to have more Nazi in power fills you of joy and pleasure. Why am I not surprise?
“as I have shown” As usual, you shown nothing. They had a Nazi lile ideology, they allied with the Nazi, and did all Nazi things. And today they proudly wear the insignia of the 2 SS Das Reich in their meeting and in the today Ukrainian Army unit as shown previously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacr...astern_Galicia
Last edited by Brenus; 06-07-2015 at 22:08.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
Whom do you have in mind when talking about Nazis, Brenus? Could you be more specific? because there are indeed forces in Ukraine which have little in common with European values: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1433457163
I tell you, I have as much sympathy for the Right Sector, Svoboda and the Radical party, forr Yarosh and Lyashko, as I have for their Russian counterparts such as the LDPR, "Cossacks", Russian monarchists etc. As the article above shows, they share indeed more ideology-wise than they would ever admit: Homophobia, ethnonationalism, anti-Western positions. Heck, a good deal of Russian Nazis even shares their hatred for the Soviet Union.Yes, you read right: the "pro-European" stance of the Ukrainian far right is more a tactical mask it put on during Euromajdan. Before that, Svoboda for instance, wanted a block-free Ukraine following some kind of a "third way" (preferably secured by its own nuclear weapons).
If you talk about those Nazis, then yes, I agree with you that they exist. I also agree with you, that during the past year, the moderate political parties failed to clearly distance themselves by a cordon sanitaire from those lunatic forces. especially Yatseniuk has also an unhealthy habit of imitating their rhethorics.
However, they received fairly little of the vote in last year's parliamentary elections. The only true right-wing party which made it beyond the threshold was Lyashko's radical party, with 8-9 per cent iirc and even less seats, due to Ukraine's mixed majority/proportional system. Svoboda won three direct mandates.
Now let's compare it: No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote. And i am sure I could dig out some more white supremacists/neonazis like the old Le Pen somewhere in the internet. @Gilrandir: Don't be to apologetic for the UPA/OUN. Communism also had a noble cause, yet we denounce it last but not least because of its methods. Well, at least outside of Russia. Fun fact: in a 2010 survey, Bandera was less popular than Lenin or Brezhnev. In another survey, 52 per cent of all Ukrainians supported Yanukovich's revocation of the title "Heroe of Ukraine" for him, with 31 per cent opposing that move. The only macroregion which wanted him to keep that title was the West. Replacing Lenin with Bandera is definitely NOT the way to reunify Ukraine. Stick with Taras Shevchenko, Ivano Franko or Yaroslav the Wise if you want to build monuments. (Sources for the surveys: Ukraine-Analysen 75 and 81. Unfortunately in German :/ http://www.laender-analysen.de/ukraine/archiv.php )
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
Are you seriously going with the story of communism=nazism to justify that it is ok if some Ukrainians celebrate Bandera and UPA?
Anyway, far right forces played a disproportionally large role in Maidan revolution. They were brought en masse from Lvov to Kiev to be used as shock troops. They had the support of the Kiev government to conduct mini revolutions in the east afterwards. After that, far right politicians/activists were given important roles in the sphere of public safety (police, courts - precisely where they are most dangerous), and many of them are still there, and/or their influence is still felt.
This parliament continued the practice of glorifying Bandera/UPA, irrespective of the number of far right MPs in the parliament, which makes it even more dangerous as it means it is a main stream view.
Of course not all Ukrainians are like that. Like in any country, most of the population is moderate, but the country is currently heading to a cliff, and no one is changing course.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
Were there any Jews mentioned in all the arguments? But, as I have said, many of the figures which are glorified today (Bogdan Khmelnitsky or Ivan Gonta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Gonta) don't have a clean record as far as Jews are concerned. I'm sure each country has such people in history. There are no only black or only white characters. I was trying to see the then situation through the eyes of an average citizen of Western Ukraine and explain his feelings.
All the articles you link speak of the Ukrainian pipelines near the Crimea now owned by Russia. They are of no transitional value for Russia, just another piece of confiscated Ukrainian property. I meant the pipelines that can help Russia to pump its gas westwards. Such pipelines were not secured by the Crimea annexation.What pipelines do you mean? The South Stream was suspended indefinitely, any others are still only nascent projects so far from implementation, that it is precarious to speak of them being "secured".
Apparently, I am not the only one with this idea:
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...vals-pipelines
http://qha.com.ua/crimean-enterprise...-119164en.html
Plus a bonus
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/wo...-reserves.html
I called it? It was your friend Putin who disinterred the long-forgotten nomen.
But as for the rest, it is again misinterpretation. Did I speak of Ukraine joining NATO? I said that any NATO forces are now welcome to be deployed in Ukraine. And as joint military exercise in Lviv region show, the very fact of them got Russia furious:
http://news.yahoo.com/us-ukraine-sta...112519186.html
I was the one who said that this very scenario is what Putin is aiming at now. And which he he'll never get. The public opinion in Ukraine would not tolerate it and all current powers that be realize it.
And somehow the sky didn't fall on earth because all major decisions have been adopted without Russia for a year or so. Evidently Russia's help is not sine qua non so far.
Stigmatizing people without a valid reason and explanation has always been a favorite game of yours. Carry on, dude.
You see joy and pleasure where there are none. But everyone extrapolates his feelings on the feelings of others while trying to explain things beyond his comprehension. What I have paid attention to for more than a year is the fact that nazism in Ukraine is no more likely than nazism in France.
They do, as well as some Germans town on their coats of arms. But this discussion repeats itself.
If you read the WHOLE text you linked carefully, you couldn't have missed this part:
Ukrainian casualties
Ukrainian casualties at the hands of Poles are estimated at 2,000-3,000 in Volhynia. Together with those killed in other areas, the number of Ukrainian casualties were between 10,000 and 15,000, with the bulk of these occurring in Eastern Galicia and present-day Poland. The numbers included those who died as part of communist repression in post-war Poland. According to Kataryna Wolczuk for all areas affected by conflict, the Ukrainian casualties are estimated as from 10,000 to 30,000 between 1943 and 1947.
Which again bears out my point: given the cruelty of the war, there were a lot of dirty deeds done at that time. Or do you think Western allies or Soviet troops committed no atrocities in liberated lands or in Germany? Yet everybody glorifies now the valiant armies who delivered the world from the nazi plague. We should acknowledge every little fact of such deeds and make peace. Let the past bury its dead.
Did I justify any? As for the years that have lapsed, it is the main point of the whole argument: why should the events of the 70-year-old past (however glorious or grievous all sides of the conflict may consider them) be a reason to sow hatred and wage a war today?
I mean that there is no reason to pay attention to what Putin says, still less to his promises - once a liar, always a liar.
Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-08-2015 at 12:10.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
As I have said many times (and which Brenus refuses to see), I have no great sympathy for UPA and Bandera. I realize the limited and biased character of their worldview and dubious and/or criminal nature of some of their deeds. But they were products of their time. And if we speak of say, Volyn massacre, we can't say that ALL UPA MEMBERS participated in it. And Bandera spent most of his active political life in Poish prison and Sachsenhausen. Most of those who criticize UPA and Bandera don't know that. I would like people to know all bad and good sides of things they are so opinionated about before they can make sober conclusions. So I don't see the reason to hate the now old men who didn't take part in any atrocities, but fought all those who they considered invaders - both Germans and Soviets.
Do you know that Shevchenko wrote many poems (including Haidamakas)in which he glorifued those who massacred jews and the Polish?
http://www.ukrainianwinnipeg.ca/shev...ews-haidmakas/
Some modern historians believe that Yaroslav the Wise assasinated his brothers Boris and Gleb and later attributed their murder to another brother Svyatopolk (later nicknamed for it the Accursed).
http://ria.ru/history_tochki/20100801/260888588.html
Bottomline: ANY HISTORIC FIGURE has very shady sided to him. So what is to be done - no glorification of anyone?
My answer - we should know about both the glorious and the ignoble and then praise him for the former and condemn for the latter.
Of course, you have numerical data on general participation of people in Maidan events and on the number of far rightists among them so that we could confirm that your judgement is sound.
Again, if you have the data on the number of people brought from Lviv to Kyiv and on the percentage of the far rightists among them and on their quantitative representation within the shock troops, we would consider them. Until then these are arbitrary claims.
Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-08-2015 at 12:45.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
And Tagliavini resigned:
http://www.sott.net/article/297447-O...kraine-resigns
Does it spell the demise of negotiations?
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
You have never lied or why should I listen to you?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
Everybody lies, yet here we speak of the leader of a nuclear state who violates his nation's promises, then denies it, then admits he does.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
My judgement is sound. I didn't say they were majority, I said "they played disproportionally large role". Try to read.
There's been links to articles in this and previous thread. You can look for yourself. There are ample sources on the net. It is a matter of pride in Lviv that the Lviv State University was empty during Maidan, because all students were in Kiev.Again, if you have the data on the number of people brought from Lviv to Kyiv and on the percentage of the far rightists among them and on their quantitative representation within the shock troops, we would consider them. Until then these are arbitrary claims.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
To prove the soundness of your judgement of "disproportionally large role" you should give the said proportion and the disproportionate character of the role must be further demonstrated by respective figures. Moreover, you should explain what proportion you consider normal (10%, 20% or what) and why. Since no such proportion or any figures were offered, let me doubt the soundness of your judgement.
The latter claim is an overstatement. How do you know that ALL students were there? Do you have any data based on the class registers (manifesting attendance) and then another document vouching that all the absent at classes students of, say, the law school of Lviv University, asked for a leave to go to Maidan or put signatures under a solemn vow to go there and then still another one to show that all those who cut classes in Lviv were registered on Maidan? If I were you, I would say that this is a sensationalist claim (Russian TV showing a footage of empty classrooms whose attendants have gone to the nazi putsch in Kiev) and a cheap shot. But I wouldn't.
But it is not even important. No one denies that the Western regions of Ukraine were heavily represented on Maidan. What you do is claiming that ALL of their representatives were far rightists. To sustain such a claim one must produce proofs.
Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-08-2015 at 16:34.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
Do you really expect me to quantify something like that? Like say 36.47% overall influence? Seriously? You're not trolling, you're being serious here?
It is a figure of speech. It is not meant to be taken literally. Surely some disagreed, some were injured or sick, some went home, some just abhorred violence, some supported it but were to cowardly... It doesn't mean EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. It means a majority, a very large number of themThe latter claim is an overstatement. How do you know that ALL students were there? Do you have any data based on the class registers (manifesting attendance) and then another document vouching that all the absent at classes students of, say, the law school of Lviv University, asked for a leave to go to Maidan or put signatures under a solemn vow to go there and then still another one to show that all those who cut classes in Lviv were registered on Maidan?
Whatever makes you happy.If I were you, I would say that this is a sensationalist claim (Russian TV showing a footage of empty classrooms whose attendants have gone to the nazi putsch in Kiev) and a cheap shot. But I wouldn't.
Aaaaaaand thank you!!! We have a winner! Give the man a cigar!But it is not even important. No one denies that the Western regions of Ukraine were heavily represented on Maidan. What you do is claiming that ALL of their representatives were far rightists. To sustain such a claim one must produce proofs.
Precisely my point. And you knew that from the beginning and you could have just agreed with me two posts ago and save us this trouble.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
So what? Nothing in the part after the first comma makes him special. In fact he told the truth about WMDs in Iraq (or the lack thereof) for example while the other side lied about it, then denied it and then admitted it. Oh wait, they never admitted it, that makes them better and more trustworthy.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
Anybody else notice how Putin said they wouldn't "suddenly" attack NATO?
Also, unlike the West, Russians feel it is entirely appropriate to lie through your teeth in politics.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
"Also, unlike the West, Russians feel it is entirely appropriate to lie through your teeth in politics." WMD in Iraq? Bringing Democracy in Balkans (remember Jamie Shea and the horse shoes operation?)? Liberation of Women in Afghanistan? Iraq is a better place now? Saudi Arabia potentially elected as Human Right President? Closing Guantanamo Bay? Ignoring Referendum (EU one)? That is a lot of Russian politician in USA & EU politics!
"As I have said many times (and which Brenus refuses to see)" You are not very convincing. Each time you come back with good reasons to explain why it was not entirely the Nazis fault to slaughter, you know, "well, sure the killing of Polish population is due to historical factors due to the fact that they are Polish and Polish are from Poland, so surely it was a good reason enough to kill them based on the fact they were Polish" kind of explanation, which are very convincing.
"Everybody lies, yet here we speak of the leader of a nuclear state who violates his nation's promises" Do you mean like a signed treaty reassuring that Kosovo is part of Serbia?
"Or do you think Western allies or Soviet troops committed no atrocities in liberated lands or in Germany?" The Soviets did (Kathyn (Sp) as we know) and as well a massive rape campaign (but to be fair, the Yugoslav complain about it and they were allied with the Russians), but I failed to have German, Italian, Hungarian or other Germans Allies villages rounded-up and burned alive in their Churches, house, warehouses or lined-up to be executed with a bullet in the head, and organising a pictures competition (the winner in the Nazi side was the guy killing the mother with her baby in her arm with ONE bullet!).
"Stigmatizing people without a valid reason and explanation" Not a stigmatisation, an explanation, ...dude. You admitted yourself, as a Ukrainian you are not impartial (don't remember the exact wording you used). And to be delusional is how I qualify your analyse on Putin and Ukrainian crisis. Nothing about your person... I explained each time why and when.
"Whom do you have in mind when talking about Nazis, Brenus" All openly Nazi. You see, I have no sympathy for this movement, whatever the nationality of the followers, Russians, French, Ukrainian, Norwegian or US. And in all this debate, the ones not following blindly NATO/EU/US propaganda are labelled a Putin's friends (as illustrated once again by Gilrandir who then complain about personal attack). All my political opinion is against Putin's political stance, from the Anti-Gay, pro-religious and lands annexation (I can prolong the list). In fact, as Ukraine is banning the Gay Parade in Kiev (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22648210), the actual Kiev Government is probably closer to Putin than I am.
"No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote." There are no openly Fascist nor Nazi Party is France. It is banned by law as to wear Nazi insignia or Uniform (with few exception i.e. in movies making). The danger is still there, but again, 2 MP... It Le Pen comes to power, and if she get a Parliament, she will still have to change the Constitution to create a Fascist State. We had this before in France, and, well, the Fascists failed. We had a demonstration of more than 4 millions in the street to defend freedom against religious fanatics murderers. so we will defeat Fascism as we did in the past. It would be a great help if EU started to be democratic, but we will mange without.
Last edited by Brenus; 06-09-2015 at 07:16.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
More nonsense without supporting facts?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
The article you linked is from 2 years ago - when non-fascist Yanukovich was still in power. There was one, however, last week, I actually posted an article about it above, and it was attacked by right wingers, yet the police protected it. In other words, it did what you expect from a democratic state: protecting a minority's rights. And before you decry how this again shows Ukraine's naziness - unfortunately, homophobia is a problem in all Eastern European societies, whether it be Serbia, Poland or Russia. The Russian case is only in so far special, as that the government does nothing to protect LBGT people against it, quite on the contrary, it follows the majority's opinion and pushes minorities into hiding.
You see, then there is also fairly little reason to call the current government of Ukraine "nazi" or "fascist", as you continue to do. Ukrainians clearly voted against nationalist parties. There are some positions in the political discourse which are more nationalist than what we are used to in Western Europe, but again, this is a phenomena observed in many Eastern European states such as Poland, the Baltic states or Russia. Did you know that Zhirinovsky's LDPR holds actually quite a number of seats in the Russian Duma? And trust me, that party's positions are about as Nazi as those of Svoboda in 2010, they only avoid the Swastikas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDPR_%...tical_party%29
Correct me if I am wrong, Gilrandir, but from what I know, the Rada has recently passed a law prohibiting both Nazi and Soviet symbols as signs of totalitarianism.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
I learned your teachings well, oh Exalted Master. You said that this is a place for serious debates, and that I should corroborate my statements with proofs.
What if I now claim that among the separatists there is a disproportionally large number of Russian and European nazis? You would surely demand proofs and receiving an answer like you gave you would again stick on my forehead the label of a sensationalist liar.
I won't do this regarding your claims. But until I see proofs, I wouldn't buy them.
All you can claim without doubt is that there were far rightists among the Maidaners and that they became especially conspicuous after the conflict grew really violent (the second half of February). The other claim (about their disproportional numbers) is arbitrary and questionable.
You go by stereotypes (deliberately or accidentally echoing those of Russian mass media):
1. All people/students from Western Ukraine are nationalists.
2. All of these nationalists are nazis/far-rightists.
3. All of them went to Maidan.
4. Maidan consisted solely of people from Western Ukraine.
All stereotypes tend to generalize conlusions made on a limited data thus are not true. What if I claim that all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks in the USA are athletes, entertainers or gangsters? Would it be true?
It seems to me that you are the one here who is vehemently against such generalizations. Well, perhaps, I am wrong. Or things change and in discussions (measured, serious and sober, mind you) you resort to such methods.
Perhaps your memory cheats you, but I never claimed the opposite. At the same time I paid your attention that Madian consisted of people from ALL OVER UKRAINE. If you find where I claimed the opposite, I will share your "joy and pleasure" (cited after Brenus 2015, post 784 in the current thread).
So what's the use of quoting him? You might as well leave a blank space after "Putin said that".
First of all, UPA were not nazis. Your sources call them collaborationists.
Second of all, I denounced the Volyn massacre.
Third af all, if you think that the convincing power of these statements is abated by claims that atrocities were abundant at the time of the war, it is your problem.
As I have said, a distant relative of mine (he was the husband of my grandmother's sister, died a decade ago) told me stories of the behavior of Soviet liberators abroad, which are different from the canonized ones. And, on the other hand, my mother told me about German occupation (although being only 4-6 years old back then) and she can't remember any maltreatment or misconduct by soldiers billeted in their house. So speaking about the unpleasant subject of atrocities one can't be guided by official sources only since not all of such cases found their way there.
Of course, the Nazi's scale of atrocities was much greater, yet there is no denying the fact that all belligerents didn't fight in white gloves.
So, to your mind, being not impartial=nationalist?
Then I have the full right to use your logics: claiming that Russia is not involved in Donbas conflict=Putin's supporter.
You humiliate others by denying them critical thinking while believing your stance to be sober and balanced. Others do the same and think you are "blindly following" Russian propaganda. So the whole discussion has turned into implicit recriminations (whatever Sarmatian may say about the seriousness of the debate here).
Again a lie (as it was the case with the Communist ban). The march WAS HELD and PROTECTED BY THE KYIV POLICE from those who attacked it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0YS07R20150606
The same in Ukraine and, I believe, in all countries. So, logically, those who you consider Ukraininan nazis are not.
Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-09-2015 at 11:38.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
The public order in a country is determined not by the existence of criminals, but by the ability of the authorities to neutralize them.
I would gladly confirm it, but if I do, some people are sure to call it propaganda or bias. If someone is interested, he may find the law, read it and make his own conclusions. I don't doubt what conclusions Brenus would make, though.
Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-09-2015 at 11:35.
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
The same use as quoting Merkel, Obama or any journalist on the issue.
The greeks have plenty of evidence that Merkel is like Hitler by the way.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
This is pathetic:
http://en.glavnoe.ua/news/n229277
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
The automatic translation is really pathetic, I am not sure what it is trying to tell me.
To link to a biased Ukrainian source is just as pathetic, it's a deeply divided partisan country where both sides use propaganda to the max.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
This source quotes LIFENEWS, which can be called a biased Russian source.
The gist of the information (by Lifenews): Gubarev as well as other 15 people were detained in one of the high-rise bulidings in Donetsk because they started to shoot with a sniper rifle at a DNR military base near by.
There is a footage:
http://lifenews.ru/news/155318
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
No - Putin's words, or rather thair translation said "suddenly invade". We would be crazy to think Russia would "suddenly invade" a NATO country like the Baltics.
Also, the Russians actually have a word for strategic lying in international politics, there was an article about it on the BBC - they consider it a craft and are very open about it.
So, Western leaders will try for "plausible deniability" and "nuances" of the truth. The Russians will just lie and set up more lies to support it, making it impossible to get to the truth.
So - for example - if NATO don't want to acknowledge tanks massing in Poland they will refuse to talk about it, if Russia doesn't want to talk about it's tanks in Ukraine it will deny they are there, then it will report they are in the North near Finland on exercises, or it will hold actual exercises in Russia to distract from the tanks in Ukraine, or it will say there are only "volunteers" in Russia.
See the difference?
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
"Again a lie" Complain to BBC.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
Yes, the difference is that one lies at first and comes out with the truth later and is quite upfront about it while others hide behind euphemisms for the word lie and try to do so ad infinitum. Neither of them do actually act very differently however.
Also a relevant link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonath...b_2624620.html
So trustworthy, it almost moves me to tears.Powell played an intercept of a conversation between Iraqi army officers about the UN inspections. However, when he translated what they were saying, he knowingly embellished it, turning it from evidence Iraq was complying with U.N. resolutions to evidence Iraq was violating them.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
And we never stop talking about Iraq, do we?
Russians will only tell the truth when it benefits them, otherwise they will lie, Western politicians will avoid lying because if they get caught they'll probably have to resign their position. That means you can sift Western leaders' statements for something close to the truth, where you have to assume the Russians are lying.
The point about this is that Russian politicians will, therefore, assume the West is lying just as much as they are, so when the West says it wants to partner with Russia and has no interest in encircling and confining Russia the assumption is that that is a lie, the West wants something else.
Basically, whatever you tell Putin he assumes you're lying because he's lying, so he'll act on his perception of the situation and not what you tell him; this helps to explain why he invaded Ukraine. The West wanted Ukraine as a bridge to Russia, geographically and culturally (like the UK is a bridge between the US and Europe) and told Russia so. Russia concluded from this that the West wanted Ukraine to join NATO, therefore when a pro-Western government supplanted a pro-Russian one during the crisis last year this was seen as something engineered by Western leaders specifically to drive a wedge between Ukraine and Russia, despite everything the West had said.
So Putin ordered an invasion to counter what he was as NATO aggression.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
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Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putin´s Empire strikes back
If I bring up something older you will probably tell me that it's outdated again and the newest lies have not been exposed yet, so yeah, Iraq it is. I'm sorry that I cannot bring up any western lies you would enjoy reading about.
As for western leaders having to step down over lies, eh, first of all name one.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
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