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Thread: IMMIGRATION thread

  1. #721
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    The only fact (not opinion) that could be said to be in disagreement with what I've said is this, about Zawiya:

    Qaddafi’s forces commenced a massive counteroffensive on March 7. Within two days, government troops had retaken Ras Lanuf in the east, the biggest mountain town of Gharyan in the west, and Zawiya near the capital.
    Though as can bee seen in other sources, regime forces had attacked Zawiya much earlier than 7 March; like on 4 March when they even claimed to have retaken it:

    Libyan state television said the town had been retaken by pro-Gaddafi forces, although later reports spoke of "pockets of resistance".
    In other words, Zawiyah took several days to recapture.

    Ras Lanuf and Brega were previously captured by the rebels:

    Until now, armed but untrained fighters had managed to easily overthrow military garrisons in town after town: first Ajdabiya, then Brega, and finally Ras Lanuf, which no one expected would fall easily.
    So the regime lost Ajdabiya, Brega and Ras Lanuf quickly - and the rebels lost them quickly, too. There was symmetry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    You posted a list with the country of origin of the refugees in order to show that the civil war in Libya did not allow for more refugees to come to Europe as very few of them are from Libya.
    No, the point is that Syria is the number one producer of refugees, while Libya produces very few. People leaving through Libya would have the same reasons for leaving their home country without the war in Libya (with the possible exception of Mali, who ranks as number 16 - but those numbers might have dropped for this year). Evidently, Libyans feel more confident in staying in their home country than citizens of many other countries - including countries without war.


    Quote Originally Posted by HitWithThe5 View Post
    [...] the good Libyans who wanted non-violent change
    A trivially false dichotomy.
    Last edited by Viking; 10-06-2015 at 20:43.
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  2. #722

    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Here, all the things you said wrong:
    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    The intervention secured the defeat of the dictatorship. If the dictatorship had survived, any restored stability would be at the expense (per usual) of innocent people tortured and murdered by security services casting a wide net.
    This comes off as you saying that the regime putting down the rebels is a bad outcome for Libya, and more innocent lives would be at stake.
    One would have to ask how much of a difference these weapons made, anyway, considering that the rebels got control over military bases right from the start and could loot equiptment from these; including heavy artillery and tanks.
    Weapons and air support as well as NATO countries (with French taking the lead) formally recognizing the rebels as the representatives of Libya gained them the advantage over the regime.
    Imagine if Gaddafi's offensive failed to regain all territory
    No reason to imagine since he had one last city to take over and the rebels lost with minimal civilian casualties on the regime's part. No evidence of indiscriminate killing under Qaddafi's regime.
    perhaps with support from foreign jihadists and/or islamists Or, yeah, maybe even with some sophisticated weaponry received from Gulf states. In many scenarios, the war would go on; even with zero Western military intervention.
    Gulf states would not have had the political authority to intervene without a greenlight from NATO countries. Recognition of rebels from the west and NATO's political objective to OVERTHROW QADDAFI made Qatar confident about funding Islamists and fulfilling this mission by any means.
    The NATO operation ended shortly after Gaddafi was killed, and its primary aim was to remove Gaddafi from power
    The objective in and of itself was a failure. Responsibility to protect, political imprudence, and no long-term commitment to maintain national security after outright regime change makes it a model for failure.
    Yet they united against Gaddafi.
    False.

    So...

    Though as can bee seen in other sources, regime forces had attacked Zawiya much earlier than 7 March; like on 4 March when they even claimed to have retaken it:
    IIRC, the bbc is the only news agency in the world that apologized for its dishonest coverage of Libya. Even in spite of this I wouldn't take bbc's info over Kuperman's analysis.
    In other words, Zawiyah took several days to recapture.

    Ras Lanuf and Brega were previously captured by the rebels:
    Aljazeera is owned by Qatar, the second main culprit in Libya's disaster.
    So the regime lost Ajdabiya, Brega and Ras Lanuf quickly - and the rebels lost them quickly, too. There was symmetry.
    Right up until Qaddafi won and weapons were put down. The intervention began shortly after to interrupt the restoration of order across the country. Rebels were on their way to Egypt until military intervention was announced.
    A trivially false dichotomy.
    It's as simple as it gets and it's true.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 10-06-2015 at 22:33.

  3. #723
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    No, the point is that Syria is the number one producer of refugees, while Libya produces very few. People leaving through Libya would have the same reasons for leaving their home country without the war in Libya (with the possible exception of Mali, who ranks as number 16 - but those numbers might have dropped for this year). Evidently, Libyans feel more confident in staying in their home country than citizens of many other countries - including countries without war.
    Still missing the point I see. It is much harder for a lot of people to even come to Europe without any border patrols or law and order in northern African states. That they may have the same reasons to leave the country is irrelevant if they cannot get into the Mediterranean because Libyan security forces don't let them. Yes, there are other ways, but those are not simple either, but a wide open Libya where lots of traffickers gather with little resistance is.


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  4. #724
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Looks like there is no more patience for Merkel's messias-complex.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/w...cle4578486.ece

    I aprove even if it is really harsh and no doubt people who gambled everything will be really screwed, but they should have stayed at home. If you disaprove and my stance disgusts that's fine I won't take it personally.
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-07-2015 at 10:29.

  5. #725
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    This was inevitable; there's not enough housing or jobs to support the entirety of our own populations let alone this massive influx. It sucks, but there's not any alternative that wouldn't cripple the EU financially.

    In other news, one of Kadagar's suggestions might be coming true:
    The EU is beginning a new operation in the southern Mediterranean to intercept boats smuggling migrants.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-07-2015 at 11:12.
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  6. #726
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    It is time to stop the taboos, in a democratic society it has to be allowed to think about the napalm solution.


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  7. #727
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    There's a Zyklon B joke in there but for the life of me I cant think of one.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-07-2015 at 11:48.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Member thankful for this post:

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  8. #728
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Are they still evicting German nationals so they can house migrants?

    As I keep saying, we are governed by sociopaths.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  9. #729
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Are they still evicting German nationals so they can house migrants?

    As I keep saying, we are governed by sociopaths.
    They still are, in, naturally, Sweden as well. Questionable here so far the demands to give up property aren't all that apreciated. Nodody want's to live Mermel's dream, her biolgical father was better at that, at least Adolf Hitler had manners.
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-07-2015 at 13:58.

  10. #730
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I'm just not sure what you are talking about regarding asylum seekers vs immigrants since the application for asylum in Germany is usually not the nicest process and when you succeed you are usually subject to the same capitalism as an immigrant unless you want to live relatively miserable.
    While they are still refugees/asylum seekers they are given everything for free. When they have been accepted as "new Germans" the torrent of charity lavished on them stops and they will have to fend for themselves in the cruel capitalist world of joblessness, high rent, costly medical care and so on. So on balance, who knows, perhaps, they are better off now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So do I, but will it stop them?
    Hitherto they are being stopped by the French and probably British police sealing both ends of the Tunnel. We'll see when they come up with the idea of building/hiring boats or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  11. #731
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Are they still evicting German nationals so they can house migrants?

    As I keep saying, we are governed by sociopaths.
    They expect about 1 million Germans to freeze to death this winter, but they're mostly lower class and alcoholics, the Syrians are worth more to the industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    While they are still refugees/asylum seekers they are given everything for free. When they have been accepted as "new Germans" the torrent of charity lavished on them stops and they will have to fend for themselves in the cruel capitalist world of joblessness, high rent, costly medical care and so on. So on balance, who knows, perhaps, they are better off now.
    Exactly, you show great knowledge of how Germany works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Hitherto they are being stopped by the French and probably British police sealing both ends of the Tunnel. We'll see when they come up with the idea of building/hiring boats or something.
    Maybe Merkel will give them our Navy?


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  12. #732
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Maybe Merkel will give them our Navy?
    Do you mean the one at Kiel, or the one at Scapa Flow?

  13. #733
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Do you mean the one at Kiel, or the one at Scapa Flow?
    They're both at Scapa Flow, now.

  14. #734
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Do you mean the one at Kiel, or the one at Scapa Flow?
    The one at Kiel or wherever it currently is. Should be sufficient to get the people to the UK before the RN can stop them all.


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  15. #735
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by HitWithThe5 View Post
    This comes off as you saying that the regime putting down the rebels is a bad outcome for Libya, and more innocent lives would be at stake.
    It's a bad outcome for those innocent people who end up arrested, tortured and possibly killed by the security services - things that happen in closed dictatorships.

    Weapons and air support as well as NATO countries (with French taking the lead) formally recognizing the rebels as the representatives of Libya gained them the advantage over the regime.
    The arming was the point, because you said NATO effectively armed islamists. The initial uprising, long before NATO's intervention, provided plenty of weapons for anyone to loot.

    No reason to imagine since he had one last city to take over
    He didn't, just as your source points out. Your source just claims that it "surely" would be easy to recapture them without actually going into much detail for why (at least not in the quotes you provided).

    No evidence of indiscriminate killing under Qaddafi's regime.
    Yeah, none at all.

    Gulf states would not have had the political authority to intervene without a greenlight from NATO countries. Recognition of rebels from the west and NATO's political objective to OVERTHROW QADDAFI made Qatar confident about funding Islamists and fulfilling this mission by any means.
    Very unlikely - look to Syria and Yemen. How much of a guarantee does Qatar have that their side in Syria is going to win? None at all, really.

    The objective in and of itself was a failure.
    We disagree on what the primary objective was.

    False.
    Misrata and Zintani rebels didn't shoot at each other, they shot at Gaddafi's troops. Infighting came later when there was no enemy left to unite against.

    IIRC, the bbc is the only news agency in the world that apologized for its dishonest coverage of Libya. Even in spite of this I wouldn't take bbc's info over Kuperman's analysis.

    Aljazeera is owned by Qatar, the second main culprit in Libya's disaster.
    I don't think you followed this war closely as it unfolded. This is fairly basic knowledge about what happened - any news source will tell you a similar story.

    Rebels were on their way to Egypt until military intervention was announced.
    No, they even fielded their fighter jet in the defence of Benghazi (and apparently shot it down themselves).

    It's as simple as it gets and it's true.
    "all X are bad" is kindergarten-level of debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Still missing the point I see. It is much harder for a lot of people to even come to Europe without any border patrols or law and order in northern African states. That they may have the same reasons to leave the country is irrelevant if they cannot get into the Mediterranean because Libyan security forces don't let them. Yes, there are other ways, but those are not simple either, but a wide open Libya where lots of traffickers gather with little resistance is.
    No, the point is not the number of migrants arriving in Europe, but where they come from. If a country has many people emigrating, that tells you something about the current state of the country - at least relative to other countries.

    Blaming the migrant crisis on NATO's intervention doesn't make much sense, because then either

    a) you believe that the migrants don't really need to leave their home countries; which in turn implies that they are being reckless in doing so anyway. Reckless adults should take responsibility for their own recklessness

    b) you believe that the migrants really should leave their home countries; in which case it would be a good thing that NATO's intervention made it easier for them to do so
    Last edited by Viking; 10-08-2015 at 08:40.
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  16. #736
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Maybe Merkel will give them our Navy?
    Traditionally, their cockleboats are to be as unsafe as they can help. In that case the pity will conquer and the British will escort them to Buckingham palace and allow to camp in Hyde Park. Otherwise they will rush en masse in the direction of Hastings and who knows what may follow then - coronation of Raheem the Conqueror?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  17. #737

    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    It's a bad outcome for those innocent people who end up arrested, tortured and possibly killed by the security services - things that happen in closed dictatorships.
    And somehow this is worse than +10,000 people getting killed and +250,000 leaving their own country?
    The arming was the point, because you said NATO effectively armed islamists. The initial uprising, long before NATO's intervention, provided plenty of weapons for anyone to loot.
    They were not enough to stop the regime. You underestimate the initial power of this regime, the defense spending/security sector of Libya was strong. Those weapons didn’t come close to Qaddafi’s or NATO's arsenal.
    Yeah, none at all.
    During the uprising, no signs of indiscriminate killing. The rebels you hate less than the regime have killed way more civilians.
    Very unlikely - look to Syria and Yemen. How much of a guarantee does Qatar have that their side in Syria is going to win? None at all, really.
    You miss the point. It’s not about guarantee but whether their western patron is okay with them funding these groups to overthrow Assad. Since regime change was a legit objective, zealously funding Islamists also became legit.
    We disagree on what the primary objective was.
    We disagree that nato’s goal and reason for intervening was the removal of Qaddafi?
    No, they even fielded their fighter jet in the defence of Benghazi (and apparently shot it down themselves).
    This was nowhere near enough to stopping the counteroffensive on the city. Saif al Islam was on tv five days after that was reported saying it will all be over in a couple of days. Egypt was the only refuge and the rebels in the east had already begun retreating there. There was nowhere to go for the rebels.

    More excerpts from what I linked to before. NATO is to blame friend, there's really no way around it:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    When the UN authorized the intervention on March 17, 2011, and NATO started bombing two days later, Libyan government forces quickly halted their eastward offensive. As a result, Benghazi was not retaken by the government, the rebels did not flee to Egypt, and the war did not end in late March. Instead, the rebels in Benghazi reversed their retreat and launched a second westward offensive. Within barely a week, benefiting from NATO bombing of government forces, the rebels recaptured Brega and Ras Lanuf. In so doing, however, the ragtag rebels outran their supply lines, so the government again was able to retake the cities two days later. Over the next four months, such cities on the central coast changed hands several more times as the region became a primary theater of the war. Repeatedly, NATO would bomb Libyan forces, enabling the rebels to advance on populated areas, until the government counterattacked—with each round of combat inflicting casualties on both fighters and noncombatants.

    In Misurata, too, intervention prolonged and escalated the fighting. On March 19, government forces were just retaking the city’s center from the re- bels who, without resupply routes, were doomed to fall within days, roughly one month after the fighting had started there. But when NATO attacked both the government’s ground forces near the city and its naval vessels off the coast, the rebels gained breathing room and reopened their supply lines. As a result, fighting in Misurata continued for another four months until the rebels eventually prevailed in late July, by which time the city’s death toll had grown substantially, as detailed below.

    In Libya’s western mountains, the rebellion also revived, fostered by an in- flux of weapons and trainers from NATO member states. Accordingly, by late August 2011, rebels had converged on Tripoli in a pincer from east and west. Not surprisingly, government forces staged a fierce defense of the capital—magnifying severalfold the death toll of soldiers, rebels, and civilians in an area that had been quiescent during the preceding ave months

    The rebels also had strong reason to believe that such intervention would be forthcoming. As early as February 22, 2011, former U.K. Foreign Minister Lord David Owen, while speaking to Al Jazeera, called for a no-fly zone.62 On March 2, the rebels’ military commander spoke by telephone to Britain’s foreign secretary “about planning for a No-Fly Zone,” according to the U.K. government.63 The next day, March 3, British Special Forces and intelligence agents clandestinely attempted to meet with rebels in eastern Libya.64 On March 5, France formally praised the rebels’ establishment of the National Transitional Council. Just ave days later, France’s president, Nicolas Sarkozy, agreed to recognize the rebel council as Libya’s legitimate government during a meeting at his office with the rebels’ top diplomat, Mahmoud Jibril.65 This was remarkable considering that the rebellion was barely three weeks old and the rebels already had lost most of their initial territorial gains. On the same day, March 10, while the rebels were in abject retreat, their political leader appeared on CNN to plead again desperately for a no-fly zone: “It has to be immediate action.”

    This evidence demonstrates that, by the third week of the rebellion (if not sooner), the strategy of the rebels depended on forthcoming NATO intervention—which they had grounds to expect. Indeed, the early and significant signals of support from NATO countries help explain why the otherwise feeble rebels continued fighting the government’s vastly superior forces.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 10-11-2015 at 21:00.

  18. #738

    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    Though as can bee seen in other sources, regime forces had attacked Zawiya much earlier than 7 March; like on 4 March when they even claimed to have retaken it:
    They actually retook it March 9. Like I said bbc were the only ones that apologized for their dishonest coverage of the war, which pretty much every western outlet is guilty of but didn't care to correct themselves.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 10-11-2015 at 20:58.

  19. #739
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitWithThe5 View Post
    And somehow this is worse than +10,000 people getting killed and +250,000 leaving their own country?
    Worse? What's worse: you (presumed innocent) getting mowed down by a bulldozer, or 10 other innocent people instead? Is either of the two cases worse than the other? Worse with respect to what?

    Those weapons didn’t come close to Qaddafi’s or NATO's arsenal.
    Neither did the weapons outsiders provided.

    During the uprising, no signs of indiscriminate killing.
    Hard to verify, either way - one of many problems with closed countries.

    The rebels you hate less than the regime have killed way more civilians.
    It's highly probable that the allies during WWII many places killed more civilians than the Nazis by ordinary bombing raids and fighting; but such statistics are not inherently meaningful for comparisons for what's 'worse' - context is key.

    You miss the point. It’s not about guarantee but whether their western patron is okay with them funding these groups to overthrow Assad. Since regime change was a legit objective, zealously funding Islamists also became legit.
    And what do you base this on? Why shouldn't the Gulf states fund the rebels, anyway?

    We disagree that nato’s goal and reason for intervening was the removal of Qaddafi?
    Never mind, we disagree that the objective itself was a failure.

    This was nowhere near enough to stopping the counteroffensive on the city. Saif al Islam was on tv five days after that was reported saying it will all be over in a couple of days. Egypt was the only refuge and the rebels in the east had already begun retreating there. There was nowhere to go for the rebels.
    Who cares what Saif said. Facts are there were several cities beyond Benghazi. Benghazi itself could not be expected to fall within a day or two ( if it at all would fall), which would provide extra time to plan any defence for remaining cities.

    NATO is to blame friend, there's really no way around it:
    Blame for what, exactly? If the Libyan militias wanted prosperity for their country, they could move towards it rather swiftly - NATO is not holding them back.

    Quote Originally Posted by HitWithThe5 View Post
    They actually retook it March 9. Like I said bbc were the only ones that apologized for their dishonest coverage of the war, which pretty much every western outlet is guilty of but didn't care to correct themselves.
    Link please for the BBC statement. Chances are it has absolutely nothing to do with when the fighting for Zawiya first began (the end date is not in dispute).
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  20. #740
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    You seem to have difficulties understanding the difference between evidence and a hypothesis.

    Nothing of that is proven (even today, and the article is from 2011). It is based on a testimony of a (brace yourself) one, single inmate who admitted he didn't see a single man being shot.

    Then a mass grave was found, which was supposed to hold the remains of those 1270 people (the bones showed in the picture). DNA testing showed it was animal bones.

    Blaming the migrant crisis on NATO's intervention doesn't make much sense, because then either

    a) you believe that the migrants don't really need to leave their home countries; which in turn implies that they are being reckless in doing so anyway. Reckless adults should take responsibility for their own recklessness

    b) you believe that the migrants really should leave their home countries; in which case it would be a good thing that NATO's intervention made it easier for them to do so
    This makes no sense whatsoever.

  21. #741
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    You seem to have difficulties understanding the difference between evidence and a hypothesis.

    Nothing of that is proven (even today, and the article is from 2011). It is based on a testimony of a (brace yourself) one, single inmate who admitted he didn't see a single man being shot.

    Then a mass grave was found, which was supposed to hold the remains of those 1270 people (the bones showed in the picture). DNA testing showed it was animal bones.
    The topic was not Abu Salim, but indiscriminate killing by the regime. You can find two people in that article who do not know where one of their relatives ended up - relatives who were imprisoned. Chances are that they were killed during imprisonment. And yes, those are pieces of evidence, until invalidated.

    This makes no sense whatsoever.
    Explain yourself.
    Last edited by Viking; 10-12-2015 at 22:56.
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  22. #742
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    The topic was not Abu Salim, but indiscriminate killing by the regime. You can find two people in that article who do not know where one of their relatives ended up - relatives who were imprisoned. Chances are that they were killed during imprisonment. And yes, those are pieces of evidence, until invalidated.
    No one said it was Disneyland, but those were not indiscriminate killings.

    For future reference,

    Indiscriminate killings - killing people without regard who they are, what they do, their age, sex, ethnicity, religion, physical appearance...
    Killing political opponents is not indiscriminate.

    Something has been proved when a relevant impartial authority makes that decision based on all available evidence. Evidence itself is neutral. So far, only thing that has been proved is that prisoners were fed beef.
    Explain yourself.
    I can't. That's why I said it makes no sense.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 10-13-2015 at 06:34.

  23. #743
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    No one said it was Disneyland, but those were not indiscriminate killings.

    For future reference,

    Indiscriminate killings - killing people without regard who they are, what they do, their age, sex, ethnicity, religion, physical appearance...
    Killing political opponents is not indiscriminate.
    This makes assumptions about the victims that might not be correct. Ultimately, no action is 100% indiscriminate with regards to its victims (most killers have people they do not want to kill). If the regime casts the net sufficiently wide when trying to catch 'political opponents', their approach can be said to be indiscriminate.

    Ultimately, though, the point is that people who have done nothing wrong, and who might not in any way have expected that the regime would imprison them, might end up dead thanks to the security services.

    Something has been proved when a relevant impartial authority makes that decision based on all available evidence. Evidence itself is neutral. So far, only thing that has been proved is that prisoners were fed beef.
    Things don't ever get proved; all one ever have is evidence that point in certain directions.

    I can't. That's why I said it makes no sense.
    What a pity.
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  24. #744
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Not something I came up with, it's called diffusion of responsibity, everbody is just as guilty or innocent, you have a better chance of being saved when you are in trouble and only 4 people see it, if 200 people see it you are more likely to be screwed as nobody feels responsble. If everybody kills it isn't your responsebility either. It's a social mechanism that doesn't need defence.
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-13-2015 at 12:07.

  25. #745

    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Things don't ever get proved; all one ever have is evidence that point in certain directions.
    To point anywhere at all, evidence must have some prior grounding.
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  26. #746
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    To point anywhere at all, evidence must have some prior grounding.
    There's no dichotomy here, but a scale on which evidence range from poor/weak to good/strong. I don't possess any good evidence (not that I have searched thoroughly), but I dispute that there is no evidence at all.
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  27. #747

    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    No, it's even worse - I was making an abstruse philosophical point out of radical scepticism.

    Carry on.
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  28. #748
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Things don't ever get proved; all one ever have is evidence that point in certain directions.
    So, none of what you said actually matters?
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  29. #749
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    No, it is to say that we're dealing with probabilities rather than a proven/not proven dichotomy. In general.
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  30. #750

    Default Re: One-stop Thread for Immigration & Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    Worse? What's worse: you (presumed innocent) getting mowed down by a bulldozer, or 10 other innocent people instead? Is either of the two cases worse than the other? Worse with respect to what?
    With respect to the number of innocent lives, with respect to the stability of the country, with respect to the basic social services destroyed for nothing.
    Hard to verify, either way - one of many problems with closed countries.
    It would not have been in the regime's best interest to target civilians. Misrata, Zawiya, Zuwara, Ajdabiya - no bloodbaths when retaken and those were the ones that were actually retaken by the government.
    Neither did the weapons outsiders provided.
    Air support and crippling the regime certainly did.
    And what do you base this on? Why shouldn't the Gulf states fund the rebels, anyway?
    Because they lack that sovereignty. It is only because of Saudi Arabia and USA's aligned interests in the region that makes the funding of Islamists a common foreign policy initiative.
    Blame for what, exactly? If the Libyan militias wanted prosperity for their country, they could move towards it rather swiftly - NATO is not holding them back.
    Entrusting these militias to pull the country back together after bombing the hell out of it and kicking the regime that held it together for decades aside is the stupidity here. NATO shouldn't have done anything.

    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    Though as can bee seen in other sources, regime forces had attacked Zawiya much earlier than 7 March; like on 4 March when they even claimed to have retaken it:
    Is enough to see through how the coverage of the war as it unfolded is propoganda. Same goes for Syria.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 10-14-2015 at 01:31. Reason: language

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