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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    @Gilrandir, That is a ball face lie. They knew full well it was Russian. That is saying that the rest of NATO never shared IFF technology with them.

    It was a prepositioned ambush, pure and simple. The aid convoy is the same propaganda used by the Russians in your country.

    A few people have told me that it is Turkish petulance over the Russian bombing of ISIS oil tanker trucks headed for Turkey. Yes, where else do you think they go to sell it?

    I guess that meant more to them than the Russian Tourist trade. I may have the figures wrong but I heard last year there were like 4 million Russians who visited Turkey. That seems high to me but even if it were 400,000, I figure it might put a dent in the economy.
    Last edited by Fisherking; 11-26-2015 at 18:35.


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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    "How does France need Russia to bomb ISIS?" I have the feeling that France wants more than bombing...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
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  3. #3
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    I have half a hunch that Turkey intentionally caused this incident, or at least didn't do anything to avoid it.

    Most western countries would like to see Assad gone, but consider ISIS to be the bigger priority. For Turkey it's the other way around: they don't particulary like ISIS but think it's paramount to get rid of Assad.

    Western countries were once unequivocal that Assad can't stay, but the last few weeks it looked like they would consider budging to make cooperation with Russia possible.

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that shooting down the plane itself was wrong. I don't know much about international rules of warfare, but even if the Turkish story is true and they were within their rights this chain of events seems rather convenient for them.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 11-26-2015 at 19:44.

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    Misanthropos Member I of the Storm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    ...

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    ...
    I'm not so sure about that. I think it's within the realm of possibilities that the western allies and Russia come to an understanding about a limited cooperation in the middle east regardless of Turkey's attitude. Not very probable atm, but possible.

  5. #5
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    [QUOTE=Philippus Flavius Homovallumus;2053672372]The jet in question was a Su-24, the same used by the Syrian Air Force. .

    Didn't know that. It appears Syria has around 20 of them. Still, the odds are they knew it was Russian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I have half a hunch that Turkey intentionally caused this incident, or at least didn't do anything to avoid it.

    Most western countries would like to see Assad gone, but consider ISIS to be the bigger priority. For Turkey it's the other way around: they don't particulary like ISIS but think it's paramount to get rid of Assad.

    Western countries were once unequivocal that Assad can't stay, but the last few weeks it looked like they would consider budging to make cooperation with Russia possible.

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that shooting down the plane itself was wrong. I don't know much about international rules of warfare, but even if the Turkish story is true and they were within their rights this chain of events seems rather convenient for them.
    All Turkish actions so far have shown that they actually help ISIS. They bombed Kurds who are actively fighting IS. Masses of trucks from IS controlled territory go into Turkey and back with little to no control. They help Turkmens who are allied to Al Nusra...

    IS actually helps Turkey achieve all its goals - kill as many Kurds as possible, defeat the Shiites in Syria, break it up and incorporate Turkmen territory into Turkey.


    What is interesting is the total lack of outrage over the fate of the Russian pilot. No one from the west dared to criticize Turkmens or Turkey. If that was a French, British or American pilot gunned down by, let's say, pro Russian rebels in Ukraine, there would all kinds of hell breaking loose.

    I'm getting sick and tired of the double standards. Charlie Hebdo can easily pull off a page like this after the airliner was shot down in Egypt
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Would be interesting if they drew people and buildings getting blown away in Paris attacks, maybe with the caption "Re-modelling of Paris landmarks". If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist.

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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    What is interesting is the total lack of outrage over the fate of the Russian pilot. No one from the west dared to criticize Turkmens or Turkey. If that was a French, British or American pilot gunned down by, let's say, pro Russian rebels in Ukraine, there would all kinds of hell breaking loose.

    I'm getting sick and tired of the double standards.
    That's not a double standard.

    Would be interesting if they drew people and buildings getting blown away in Paris attacks, maybe with the caption "Re-modelling of Paris landmarks". If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist.
    Oh, please.
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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  7. #7
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That's not a double standard.
    No? Okay.
    And that is supposedly similar? One is mocking dead people falling from the sky, and the other is having champagne defiantly? Try harder.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Try harder to do what, exactly? You yourself don't seem to be clear on what you are talking about, besides of course the predetermined conclusion that there is some double standard.
    Vitiate Man.

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  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    "Would be interesting if they drew people and buildings getting blown away in Paris attacks," They did.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Please, do not mix all terrorists. There are terrorists and terrorists.
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    I always wanted to see Paris...

    About Champagne:
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    Do you read the title of the magazine?

    One more for the road:
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    Hard enough?

    "If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist." Cheap shot, as show with cartoons above.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Brenus; 11-26-2015 at 22:58.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  10. #10
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist." Cheap shot, as show with cartoons above.
    Not that I can read French very well, but they all make fun of the terrorists it seems, the one Sarmatian linked made fun of the Russians, who were the victims in that case...
    Not comparable at all, comparable would be someone making a joke with the people who jumped out of the burning twin towers...

    Oh, also:
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...c6b9935eca5560
    Last edited by Husar; 11-27-2015 at 06:16.


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  11. #11
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I have half a hunch that Turkey intentionally caused this incident, or at least didn't do anything to avoid it.

    Most western countries would like to see Assad gone, but consider ISIS to be the bigger priority. For Turkey it's the other way around: they don't particulary like ISIS but think it's paramount to get rid of Assad.

    Western countries were once unequivocal that Assad can't stay, but the last few weeks it looked like they would consider budging to make cooperation with Russia possible.

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that shooting down the plane itself was wrong. I don't know much about international rules of warfare, but even if the Turkish story is true and they were within their rights this chain of events seems rather convenient for them.

    Complitated, what is claimed to be Turkish air-territory isn't recognised by the Nato at all. Turkey isn't making friends.

  12. #12
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Try harder to do what, exactly? You yourself don't seem to be clear on what you are talking about, besides of course the predetermined conclusion that there is some double standard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post

    Hard enough?

    Cheap shot.
    I haven't seen a single picture that is remotely comparable to making fun of people who died in a plane crash.

    All those caricatures have a very clear satirical message. The champagne one says terrorists can't frighten us. That was their objective and they failed. Terrorists and terrorist is a clear allusion to situation in Syria. I always wanted to see Paris one is self explanatory.

    That in itself is not much of a problem. There will always be insensitive idiots. What is concerning is the lack of reaction. Just like there wasn't for the gunning down of a pilot. During the first gulf war, two Italian pilots were caught by the Iraqis. They appeared on Iraqi tv, slightly swollen up, and apologized to Iraqi people. There was massive outrage about the inhuman treatment. They were released later, shaken and with a few bruises, but no serious harm.

    You may feel it is a cheap shot, but I personally feel ashamed now to have been Charlie back then.

  13. #13
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I haven't seen a single picture that is remotely comparable to making fun of people who died in a plane crash.

    All those caricatures have a very clear satirical message. The champagne one says terrorists can't frighten us. That was their objective and they failed. Terrorists and terrorist is a clear allusion to situation in Syria. I always wanted to see Paris one is self explanatory.

    That in itself is not much of a problem. There will always be insensitive idiots. What is concerning is the lack of reaction. Just like there wasn't for the gunning down of a pilot. During the first gulf war, two Italian pilots were caught by the Iraqis. They appeared on Iraqi tv, slightly swollen up, and apologized to Iraqi people. There was massive outrage about the inhuman treatment. They were released later, shaken and with a few bruises, but no serious harm.

    You may feel it is a cheap shot, but I personally feel ashamed now to have been Charlie back then.
    I don't really like them either but you have the right to find it offensive. I don't mind it all that much when satire is pretty brutal.

  14. #14
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Even if they couldn't say it was Russian with certainty, it must have been clear that it was a modern jet not available to any of the local armed groups. Therefore, it could have been only Russian, American or French. I'm pretty sure they knew it wasn't French or American.

    Anyway, with S-400 deployed now, Russia checked Turkey. 400km range, with a few of those, they could easily enforce a no fly zone over Syria.
    The jet in question was a Su-24, the same used by the Syrian Air Force. .

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    @Gilrandir, That is a ball face lie. They knew full well it was Russian. That is saying that the rest of NATO never shared IFF technology with them.
    Russians have been known to routinely fly with their IFF switched off when "buzzing" NATO countries.

    Overall I think they probably did no it was Russian and I wouldn't trust Turkey's president half the distance I could throw him, I'm not even sure he's sane, but let's not pretend that it was certain the plane was Russian before it was shot down.

    The IFF could have been off, the pilot apparently had the radio off according to the navigator - given that he didn't hear the repeated warnings to turn back.

    It was a prepositioned ambush, pure and simple.
    There's no reason to suspect this, really. It's possible the Turks took a pot shot at them out of pique but the Americans are backing the Turkish version viz the warnings to it seems unlikely this was a set up. If it was a set up then it was one daring the Russians to be as stupid as possible.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post

    There's no reason to suspect this, really. It's possible the Turks took a pot shot at them out of pique but the Americans are backing the Turkish version viz the warnings to it seems unlikely this was a set up. If it was a set up then it was one daring the Russians to be as stupid as possible.
    The interchange took 17 seconds. The plane was in Turkish airspace for 6 or 7 seconds. The Turkish pilot would not have fired without high level clearance. He had to just be loitering at the right place at the right time to get a lock on his target, or he shot it down after it left... 10 warnings a lock and a shoot down in less than 20 seconds, with coordination between ground, air, and political contacts. Would you believe it had it been a British Aircraft shot down...or anyone else for that matter?



    I don't know that you can say "You are approaching Turkish air space" intelligibly 10 times in 10 seconds.
    Last edited by Fisherking; 11-26-2015 at 20:07.


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  16. #16
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    The interchange took 17 seconds. The plane was in Turkish airspace for 6 or 7 seconds. The Turkish pilot would not have fired without high level clearance. He had to just be loitering at the right place at the right time to get a lock on his target, or he shot it down after it left... 10 warnings a lock and a shoot down in less than 20 seconds, with coordination between ground, air, and political contacts. Would you believe it had it been a British Aircraft shot down...or anyone else for that matter?



    I don't know that you can say "You are approaching Turkish air space" intelligibly 10 times in 10 seconds.
    Erm, they were warned repeatedly over a period of five minutes. Then they entered Turkish Airspace for seven seconds and a missile was fired.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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