IMMIGRATION thread

[Brenus]

That is it. I am deeply offended by err…. Let me time to remember. Ah, yes. I have deeply offended by a religious remark about atheists.
Let me explain: For X-mas, as nothing better was on TV, I watched Bear Grylls and Obama walking in the forest/tundra/taiga of Alaska (me think). The Obama’s survival path was going well and chit chat about various themes like ecology and others topics…
Near the end, Bear Grylls wanted to pray with Obama. All right, I though, I know Grylls is quite a religious guy, and even if I think Obama is a secret atheist, let pass on this. I am always uncomfortable when politic mixes with religion, we are not in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Yet. Then, Bear had this remark: There is no atheist is a fox hole.
I find it offensive.
First, how does he know? Does he really believe that, because circumstances, an atheist will suddenly find that a man in the sky will help? Somehow, it is as well offensive for the believers…
Second, atheists can believe and find strength in front of deadly events in some others earthly belief, as the number of communists in front of Nazi firing squads proved it: Manouchian Michel, in his last letter to his wife: I will die with 23 comrades soon, with the courage and serenity of a man with a good conscience, as I hurt no one, and if I did, I did it without hate. Today, it is a sunny day. Watching the sun and this nature I loved so much, I will say good bye to life…
Al least a good third of the French soldiers in the front lines in 1914-1918 was atheist, and no one recorded a massive conversion at these times.

And then, I realised that, in his own admission, the believers are still in the fox hole, so apparently belief that their deity/ies is/are not enough to make them safe.

But, as it is fashion now for religious people to be offended, I decided I would be too.

[Fragony]

Why make a fuss about it, do as you please.I am not religious but I don't have to make a point out of it, I am nothing at all. People who call themselves athiests seem to have this guilty pleasure in mocking people who are religious, what good does that do

[Brenus]

Why? Quite easy...
Religious people makes claim as "atheist can't have moral", or "can't face death bravely" and all others kind of silly things. Religious people put a judgement on none-religious and it looks like it is acceptable.
However, atheist can't "offend" religious people, because, for the most majority of them, it is not nice to "offend", and for few fanatic it is worth death.
So I decided to be offended too.

[Fragony]

Why be offended by something something that doesn't harm you? Let them think what they want, best to just neglect it. Why make a point out of not being religious? Calling yourself an athiest is too much credit imho. Live and let live, I only think in moral and immoral, why care about what doesn't harm you? I also think it's stupid but so what really

edit, you are going to love this https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B09...DQw/view?pli=1

[Husar]

Isn't she responsible for hiring him? If she still has him on her team she supports him, huh?

Should she fire everyone for the slightest disagreement with her? Is this another episode about her being just like Hitler?

[Fragony]

Should she fire everyone for the slightest disagreement with her? Is this another episode about her being just like Hitler?

She certainly is the most disruptive since. And she looks like him by the way, maybe the rumours that she is Hitler's biological daughter are true

In any case, Germany disrupts everything for the third time in just a century

[rvg]

Actually in the west their has been a feminist initiative to use Ms as equivalent as Mr. So it is used regardless of marital status in a lot of social interactions.

Yep. Saves me from potentially getting it wrong when addressing a lady.

[Fragony]

Getting it wrong is a bigger problem in Dutch (also in German, du and sie), there is 'u' the polite form, and 'jij' the informal form. You never know when you are doing it wrong. I always use the polite form if I don't know someone who is somewhat above my age but that isn't apreciated either often because it's too formal. Yoy English speakers got it easy, 'you' will always do

[Montmorency]

And she looks like him by the way

Do all "squareheads" look alike to you?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

*Shrug*

Go on, be like the Evangelicals, as unreasonable as an iron pot.

The comment is very widespread, and widely believed, even by many atheists.

It's not to say that Atheists suddenly find religion, but that your belief in absolutely no higher power what so ever is unlikely to hold up under repeated bombardment. There are very few people, when being bombed, or shot at, or hanging off a cliff, who won't say "Oh God, please let me live through this."

Saying you'd never be that person is exactly like a Christian saying he'll never have a crisis of faith.

[Beskar]

"Oh God, please let me live through this."
Saying you'd never be that person is exactly like a Christian saying he'll never have a crisis of faith.

That is because people want magical solutions to a problem. Because they feel out of their depth, would be great for magic man to come down and make things right.

But he won't, because he cannot, because there is no magic man, only the harsh reality.

Nothing wrong with hoping and wishing for such things, but unfortunately, it is not the reality we live in.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Did they treat all people the same irrespectively of their skin color and nationality?

By and large, if you wore a toga and could speak and read Latin you were Roman. culture and loyalty to the state were more important than place of birth and the colour of your skin/hair/eyes. Remember, from a Roman perspective red hair was "Gaulish" so a black man from Africa was less of a difference to them than it was to us - they were used to categorising people into tribes and then larger groups but they didn't see these homogeneous nation-states we pretend to see, they had greater variety and ad-mixing.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is because people want magical solutions to a problem. Because they feel out of their depth, would be great for magic man to come down and make things right.

But he won't, because he cannot, because there is no magic man, only the harsh reality.

Nothing wrong with hoping and wishing for such things, but unfortunately, it is not the reality we live in.

Yeah, I'd like to see you say that under your breath when someone's holding you at gunpoint.

People are what people are winging about it is infinitely more childish than any belief in a "magic man".

People believe in all sorts of stupid things, like multiculturalism or communism.

[Montmorency]

"Oh God, please let me live through this."

Most atheists - indeed most Westerners in general - would admit to reacting like this even from mild inconvenience, such as a difficult commute.

It is no more significant than a Jew using "Jesus Christ!" as an interjection.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh - by the by.

The Germans are issuing special ID cards for immigrants now and immigrant men have been banned from a pool near Cologne until they learn to behave like proper Germans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35326090

So now we see The Reaction, the Germans were too nice and now all the migrants will be tarred with the same brush and treated as "sub German" because their culture is inferior to German culture.

A few years ago people might have said "but African women don't complain about being propositioned in public".

[rvg]

So now we see The Reaction, the Germans were too nice and now all the migrants will be tarred with the same brush and treated as "sub German" because their culture is inferior to German culture...

Halleluya! It is so nice to see the common sense prevail. Remember kids, don't post this.

[Greyblades]

They say there are no athiests in foxholes because few men are unwilling to try anything to survive a world erupting around them.

In extreme stress a human being will cling to any small hope of survival, regardless of thier belief under ordinary circumstances, and what is god but hope?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Most atheists - indeed most Westerners in general - would admit to reacting like this even from mild inconvenience, such as a difficult commute.

It is no more significant than a Jew using "Jesus Christ!" as an interjection.

Never heard of a Jew saying "Jesus Christ" any more than a Muslim.

This brings us to the topic of Christian atheists vs Jewish atheists vs lapsed Catholics.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And if they're too dangerous just put them down, right?

Germany is edging closer to a Pogrom and this whole mess could have been avoided if they had just started flying people back to their country of origin.

[Greyblades]

So now we see The Reaction, the Germans were too nice and now all the migrants will be tarred with the same brush and treated as "sub German" because their culture is inferior to German culture.

Careful now, we dont want to offend the cultural relativists, they might cry.

[rvg]

And if they're too dangerous just put them down, right?

Not here.

Germany is edging closer to a Pogrom and this whole mess could have been avoided if they had just started flying people back to their country of origin.

The best way of avoiding that mess would have been to keep the EU borders locked in the first place, but no, the eurocrats just had to conduct an experiment with multiculturalism. Well, there you have it. removed.

[Montmorency]

Never heard of a Jew saying "Jesus Christ" any more than a Muslim.

I have Americans of any religious or non-religious orientation use "Jesus Christ!" or "For Christ's sake!" Most of those who don't seem in fact to be those Christians who still get worked up over "taking the Lord's name in vain".

[Fragony]

Same. I am not going to say 'I told you so' because as usual when they get everything wrong the gutmensch just doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

America is a strange place that makes no sense.

[Papewaio]

Yeah, I'd like to see you say that under your breath when someone's holding you at gunpoint.

People are what people are winging about it is infinitely more childish than any belief in a "magic man".

People believe in all sorts of stupid things, like multiculturalism or communism.

I can point to multiculturalist countries, I cannot point to any proof in any God.

Believing in the Chrisitian God is the same as believing in Thor, faeries at the bottom of the garden, Unicorns, Luke Skywalker, Cpt Kirk. Just because people want something doesn't make it true. Believing in something under duress is about as honest as signing a contract under the same conditions: invalid.

It is up to the believers to show concrete repeatable proof in the fae.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I didn't say it proved God existed - I just said that it's not unreasonable to say "There are no Atheist in Foxholes" at least whilst under fire.

I can't point to a single Multiculturalist countries, I can point to countries that host multiple cultures but in every case the boundaries between cultures produce friction - in a Multi-Cultural society they wouldn't.

Me - I'm not saying Unicorns and Fairies don't or didn't exist - although down here we call them Piskies.

You can't trust them.

[Papewaio]

Multicultural societies exist in the world. I didn't add a condition that it has to be thriving.

Otherwise you would have to say no totalitarian or facist or communist countries exist because they aren't the best ones either.

[Gilrandir]

Should she fire everyone for the slightest disagreement with her? Is this another episode about her being just like Hitler?

You claimed that he is prone to do such things once in a while. If he doesn't stop doing this it means that either she doesn't mind or she is a lousy boss. Either conclusion doesn't reflect a great credit upon Frau Kanzlerin.

[Gilrandir]

"Ms." is not the same reference as either "Merkel" or "Ms. Merkel" unless used as a vocative. However, "Ms. Merkel" does have the same referent as "Merkel", either alone or attached to any other title...

What you are saying would have "the poet" as an appositive phrase in which "the" identifies the person by their - something - and "poet" identifies status of poet . And this way, you would overload "the" with so much meaning as to denote literally everything real simultaneously. In the same vein, "That stupid Merkel says wir schaffen das" would then involve apposition between "stupid" [the stupidity of Merkel] and "Merkel" [the Merkel of Merkel].

Apposition is not always a phrase (it usually is when it is detached).
From https://vk.com/doc8069473_229802203?...890754f556bc39 (p. 305-306):

§ 31. An apposition is a special kind of attribute which is expressed by a noun (with or without accompanying words) which characterizes or explains the word modified by giving the person or thing another name. There are two kinds of apposition, the close apposition and the loose or detached apposition.

§ 32. The close apposition.
A close apposition is not separated by commas and stands in close connection with the word modified. These word-groups generally consist either of the name of a person and a noun denoting a title, rank, profession, or the name of a person and a noun denoting relationship, or a geographical name and some common noun, e. g. Professor Brown, Captain Marryat, Aunt Polly, President Roosevelt, etc.

Even Aunt Ann was there. (Galsworthy)
Professor Sommerville practised what he preached. (Carter)

In these word-groups the noun modified is the name of a person or a geographical name, the first component is a common noun in apposition.

N o t e. — In case the common noun is preceded by a possessive or a
demonstrative pronoun, it becomes more important and acquires a stronger
stress. Consequently the relation between the components of the word group
is reversed. The first component is modified by the name of a person or a
geographical name which is an apposition:

That boy Peter has a literary turn of mind. He is sure to become a writer.

Sometimes the apposition consists of the preposition of + noun, e. g. the town of Daventry, the city of London.

§ 33. The loose or detached apposition.
A loose apposition is not so closely connected with the noun. It is always separated by commas and has a stress of its own.

Dr. Winchcliffe, my predecessor, was a classmate of my father’s. (Sanborn)
With her elder and younger sisters she lived now in the house of Timothy, her sixth and youngest brother, on the Bayswater Road. (Galsworthy)


And from http://www.alleng.ru/d/engl/engl159.htm (p. 264-265):
Types of connection between an apposition and its headword

§ 91. From the point of view of their relation to the headword, appositions, like attributes, are subdivided into non-detached (close) and detached (loose) ones.

Non-detached appositions

§ 92. Non-detached appositions form one sense group with their headword and very often enter into such close relation with it that the two words form one whole. This is especially true in the case of titles, military ranks, professions, kinship terms, geographical denotations, etc., used as apposition.

Sir Peter, Mr Brown, Doctor Watson, Colonel Davidson, Uncle Podger, Mount Everest, the River Thames.

Being very closely connected with each other such appositions and their headwords may be treated as indivisible word-groups.

Detached appositions

§ 93. Detached, or loose appositions form separate sense groups and are wider in their meaning than close appositions: they may give identification, explanation, etc., especially when referring to pronouns. They may follow the headword immediately or be separated from it.

He actually envied Jolyon the reputation of succeeding where he, Soames, had failed.
Cooper was three inches taller than Mr Warburton, a strong, muscular young man.

An apposition may also refer to a clause or a sentence, usually as an explanatory remark.

The night was muggy, a bit drizzly, windless, and very dark - the ideal conditions for a gas bombardment.

I think the logical conclusion of this discussion is that you are an extraterrestrial and have failed in your mission to surveil hoomans by making a telltale slip.

I see.

There is a famous (in the former USSR) satirist Mikhail Zhvanetsky (from Odesa). In one of his monologues he said: "The behavior of our (i.e. Soviet) person in a dispute is not countering the arguments of your opponent, but looking him up and down. When you are done with it you go: How can a bald man with such a nose express any opinion on the ingenious skills of Herbert von Karajan? He must correct his nose, grow some hair and only then have his say".

I doubt you have heard this piece, but your ingenuity is in inadvertantly (or intentionally) following the same tactics. Carry on dude.

Actually in the west their has been a feminist initiative to use Ms as equivalent as Mr. So it is used regardless of marital status in a lot of social interactions.

According to PFH, in the UK the said status determines the way the woman is addressed (especially when you are aware of this status, as was the case with Merkel).

By and large, if you wore a toga and could speak and read Latin you were Roman. culture and loyalty to the state were more important than place of birth and the colour of your skin/hair/eyes. Remember, from a Roman perspective red hair was "Gaulish" so a black man from Africa was less of a difference to them than it was to us - they were used to categorising people into tribes and then larger groups but they didn't see these homogeneous nation-states we pretend to see, they had greater variety and ad-mixing.

I find it hard to believe that the inhabitants of newly conquered lands received the same treatment as those of the core Roman provinces, still less that slaves of all races were treated equally (bad). Generally, earlier civilizations were xenophobic (even the enlightened Greeks scornfully called the ousiders Barbarians). Thus, the idea of the golden epoch of racial equality seems highly doubtful to me.

[Gilrandir]

Perhaps, Canada has more common sense in its refugees policy:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...lies-1.3330185